Sword Play

#41 That's good. Other than that, I mean that it may interfere with the movement, in that you may want to attack forward but move left at the same time (to attack and then move). I just forsee a lot of fumbling on the keyboard. Thankfully, in the JK games I can use the arrow keys, which prevents (slightly) that sort of thing.

But anyway... details. The main thing is to get a convenient system down. We can worry about how to assign the controls later on.

#42 I invisage that most of the moves fall into a similar arc, so the animation may be different, and some arcs will be different than others, moving backwards could give you a more powerful swing as it is less likely to attack, whereas forward would give you short rapid attacks and the moves in between would vary between that.

Plus all the keys should be rebindable, as the Torque engine already supports this.

#43 Need some closure on this... It looks like we're going to go with a attack+arrow combo system (with additional combos that stop screen rotation and movement), which I won't complain about since it's basically the same as my original suggestion. :D

But anyway, I was wondering how this would work with customization. Using this system, can we also do things like this, for example:

You can preselect your hand's equipment:

Double-handed sword: three times more powerful than one sword, but lowers player's speed

Twin swords: increases chances of a hit but still has open holes for opponents' attacks; is just as powerful as one sword (just faster)

Sword and shield (either arm): slower than twin swords, but just as powerful, equipping a shield on one side pof the body keeps that side protected until it's destroyed - the other side is still vulnerable

Can that be done, and do we want such a thing (or a variant)?

#44 To throw in another idea I have been thinking about we could use a timings system, so that there is an optimum point to hit attack to carry on the combo. You attack there are 5 points results when you hit attack again.
Too early or too late will stall the attack after one strike, in the 2 and 4 parts of the arc the follow up attack will be weak and it will be harder to achieve a follow up, if you hit the correct timing a strong hit will be delivered.
To try to give an idea of these areas in the arc of a downward slash, to make things easier let us say that this downwards slash takes 10 arbitary units of time, the split will be 5 units failure, 3 units weak, 2 units strong. Now the obvious point to follow up from a downwards slash would be near the end:

0 -> 4 - Combo stalls at end
5 -> 5.5 - Combo continues but is weakened, odds of stalling the next part is increased.
5.5 -> 7.5 - Combo is followed on as intended
7.5 -> 9 - Combo continues but is weakened, odds of stalling the next part is increased.
9 -> 10 - Combo stalls at end.

For different moves the timings would alter, which lets the player skill have a significant impact on play style, plus would make players more thoughtful than just holding down attack or hitting attack madly until someone dies.

Owen

#45 I like the idea of the combo system, even in oni, people droped their guns to brawl with one another, and as for people backing away, just change the grenade key too a shruken or dart key, so that if they back off, they are easy targets for a quickely thrown, low rate of fire, low damage weapon. This way backer offers are discouraged, and the most logical way to handle a sword swingin combo slavin orc is too bust a combo with youre own jagged piece of metal!

#46 Oh yea, could you also incorperate a spear poised attack, so that spear walls could be possible for organized battels? That would be really REALLY kick peenarce!

#47 does anybody read this far down a forum?

#48 Uh... it bumps when you post, especially when bumped 3 times in a row. :p It also appears on the new post section to your right.

We must remember to keep this simple for use and understanding, but in-depth enough for adequate use and expansion. (BTW, aside from backing away, I can also just strafe to the side. I hope that RW isn't going to be a high-speed action adventure like most FPSs, and will have sense enough to know that faster isn't always better. With a melee-oriented design, things need to be hittable.)

I say to make things easy to understand, simply give yourself three or four methods of attack, depending on the arrow keys. Up is thrust, down is overhead swing, left is left of course, and right is right. Each of these attacks can follow one another. You can attack with a thrust and then a right slash. There's any number of combonations you can use.

If you use three attacks in a row consecutively, you perform a combo move at the end of the third attack. A combo attack is more powerful and slower than a normal attack, and you can't move or change your view. (No looking to the left or right while using a combo to hit a moving target.) The style of combo depends on what move you did last. If it was an "Up" key move, then it will be a "Up" ket combo. (Power-thrust or whatever.)

If you don't want to use a combo but want a fast attack, tap the attack buttons twice, pause for a moment, and then attack again. This prevents a combonation move, if you wish to avoid using one.

-------

I also -really- want to see manual use of shields. Auto-defense is fine, but I also want to do it myself if need be. Just walking around letting the computer raise my shield isn't any fun. If I see a blanket of arrows flying at me, I want to be able to lift up my shield so it'll take the damage and not me.

I like the idea of being able to equip either two swords, one sword and shield, or one large sword. Give them all drawbacks and advantages and you've got yourself more combos to use without bogging down one player-type with them.

#49 What I was thinking of was a combination of the two systems, you have 5 different combos, one for when attack is initiated whilst moving forward, backwards, left, right or standing still. This would then turn over to the next system where hitting the fire at the correct moment would continue the combo.

Another idea I was thinking of was it would be interesting to add a "sweet spot" on the third and normally final attack that would create a 4 very powerful attack in the combo, but leave the player open to attack for a second or 2.

#50 Personally, I think all combos should be restricted in that manner (lowered defenses). If not, most players are going to just try to hit combos one after another without thinking about the situation. While it does seperate the men from the boys, I just generally don't care for enhanced-attacks that don't have a drawback, so to speak.

I'm having a hard time grasping what the exact basis is of your design scheme. Is it essentially "manual combos" (one attack, then another) which have certain times in their animations that you can trigger a more powerful attack after the last attack? (I'm thinking of hitting the "trigger" button on FF8 to use the main character's gunblade, which caused more damage.)

#51 Ok let me add something a bit more official here. I've been talking to Jeff Shaw, who contributed to the original HTH thread way back when.

There are a few important things here:

a: Must take some skill

b: Must have some advantage over ranged weapons, and not a fabricated advantage like super-high damage. Must be genuinely useful without hacks to make it so.

c: You have to be able to actually engage in melee and stay there for some length of time. (Whereas in most FPS games there is no real melee time at all)

d: If there are combos, there has to be some reason why you would not use them. (Or use different ones in different situations) Otherwise there isn't much point.


So, some of the things we are going to try to do is make different attacks that cover different horizontal and vertical arcs/distances, restrict backwards and sideways movement, etc.

A lot of this stuff is going to have to be playtested to figure out what works and what is fun, so I don't want to say "this is what we will do." But I have lots of ideas and suggestions to play with.

#52 I disagree that there has to be a reason why not to use combos if they exist, they should be part of the mastery of that class, learning the combos. However I do think the longer a combo lasts the longer it takes for your character to ready himself once he finishes.

#53 I know I'm a bit late in joining this thread, but a system I really liked was VISM in Die-by-the-Sword. It obviously wasn't too CPU intensive, as it would run fine in software on far older PC's then we have now.

You could switch to a 3rd person auto-tracking camera when in melee, and have your controls switched for melee mode - so that your mouse swings the weapon etc.

VISM worked very well, and was great fun to use, especially in multi-player.

#54 Not having a drawback to combos will just turn the melee system into 3D Mortal Kombat. If I know one combo move, I can use it over and over again. There's no challenge. With drawbacks, you have to compensate.

#55 Hence the better/longer your combo is the longer you hold the final position, or your cannot attack for, say you string 4 moves together you will have to wait significantly longer than simply individual slashes before you can attack again.

#56 Hey guys, I just wanna add a little insight into this as the melee system is probably the part that intersted me the most in the game. I think the best way to do it is to make each move be a certain attack which requires a certain type of block. For example, like in most fighting games, you'd have a block high and block low deal, so you'd be constantly tryin to figure out where the next move is going and when to deliver your blow. Add to this other moves with useful functions like a kick, which would push the enemy away and maybe make him lose balance or even fall depending on the character's strength or whatnot. If you give the player enough USEFUL moves, the games gets intersting and button mashing will no longer be the best strategy in the game. Also to add to this, have any of you ever played a game called HEretic 2? Not the best game, but it had something that it excelled in where no one else ever did, and that is in the player's dodge move list. You had moves that either got you to dodge the enemy's next move or eve just do a quick backflip away so you'd put space between you and the other guy. Perhaps if you gave these to the more agile fighters things would get a little more itneresting no?

Anyhow, I can present my idea in a more concise and workable format(ex. mouse + up = thrust etc.), but I just wanted to see what you guys thought of the idea b4 doing so.

#57 My suggestion for the attack combos and such would have to be special techniques you can assign to your character, taking up the position of the spells and replacing it for these special attacks for the melee classes.

In other words, a fighter would have his main attacks (simple, random slashes and such, average strength attacks) and then there would be the special attacks (combos, charging attacks, etc. that can be selected at character creation and then more obtained through play [gained abilities, swapping with other players, purchased upgrades, etc.]; these could be assigned to a secondary attack like spells would)

Also, for defence, I would suggest every melee class have a parry button (maybe all classes?) which would block all attacks (frontal and sides, but not from behind) as long as the button is being held! This helps in a few ways - It gives the defending player a chance to change special attacks and decide how to retaliate; it can be assigned to a simple key which would be easy to remember (spacebar?); allows attacks to have a higher, more realistic damage to them, making blocking essential to survival yet simple to use! Of course, while you are in the middle of an attack, you cannot block, and while you block you must wait to attack! There would also have to be a restriction - player can't move from defensive position unless he either jumps back (see below) or runs away (also below) while blocking. This way there's no overly-defensive players (of course, there could be other ways, like the shield breaking in Smash Bros. or just the chopping away of the players armor, maybe even a way to represent a player becoming tired from defending so much?)...

Another to even out the play, a sidestep key (shift + left or right) which would allow you to sidestep an on coming attack and counter! Could also be used for jumping over (shift + up) or jumping back (shift + down) out of strike range!

What about engaging an enemy? How about a Zelda-like targeting feature (with a 'chance' to hit nearby opponents as well?) which uses the main attack button to 'lock-on' (shift [brings up target which can be aimed at opponents] + left-click [to select])?! Innitiation of the fight could activate a forced melee as well, keeping both 'parties' (mutiple opponents!?) within strike range. Of course, the few ways to disengage - kill opponent, an interuption by missile attacks forces the hit player back (though might be a concern for cheesy fighting, needs testing), a run away key (Esc?) which makes the player turn around and run from battle, also using the straffing technique (shift + down) would allow the player to jump back from striking distance (and cancel the run-away option for balance).

Simple enough for anyone to get used to I think and can be heightened by using the special attacks for more experienced players! It also takes into account large-scale melee battles. Not to mention it gives the newbie players a chance to live:)

Like?? :0D

#58 Sounds like what I've been having in mind lately. The Zelda-targetting system I mentioned earlier didn't roll too well, outside of using it for magic (which is necessary for selecting who to poison or light on fire).

After playing a little of Two Towers for the PS2, I think a different branch of attacks would be nice.

One attack button would be for blocking (it wouldn't do any damage, but has an angle that can block multiple weapons from all sides but from behind.) Blocking is necessary sometimes, but to even it out, when you're doing so you can't move from your position or rotate.

The primary attack button (of two) would just be the plain old ordinary system. You can combine that with the arrow keys to make different attacks, but they're all relatively the same strength.

I've never been a big fan of combos, primarily because of two reasons: 1) they're always button-smashers that require you to memorize a series of combined movements/commands, which always has worn away at my fingers after a while, and 2) people that know the combos well will just get in your face and keep performing them as quickly as possible, knowing just what to do to (practically) never allow you to get into an offensive stance of your own. Think of Mortal Kombat, and the joys of being pummeled with god-like moves and combo chains that never end.

However, if you make the combos simple to use, but with a problem associated with using them, I'm all for it. Say, you hold down control or shift and press an arrow key to use one of four pre-defined combo chains. They each leave you open to attack in some way, or drain your health, or have some other balancing affect that keeps people from using them over and over (even against new players that wouldn't know the best way to defend themselves). Such combos would only be prudent when the opponent is off-guard, and you know you'll be able to get in a first hit. The combos would be simple so that you don't end up doing a five hit attack after your opponent has already dodged. You would just have to tap the same button again to continue the chain. (Control + Up = thrust and overhead attack; Control + Up X 2 = thrust and overhead attack, followed by underhand attack.)

A lot of the melee system is done in terms of how damage is registered, and all that, but some of this is still incomplete.

So to summarize, a simple style of attack using the arrow keys and the attack button, with a more powerful but defensively restricted series of combos executed with a third type of attack. Blocking allows no movement, but protects against all physical attacks within a certain radius. Constantly blocking will wear away at your blocking weapon or shield's integrity - a damaged shield will no longer prevent all health loss, but only half - a damaged sword only does half (less?) damage. An effective way to quickly sidestep or back away is needed, although it should prevent movement enough for no one to want to even think about overusing it (after you jump to the side/backwards, you 'impact' and can't move for a split-second.)

#59 Sorry if all this has been mentioned already -

Most medieval combat was pretty simple, actually. Fancy blows don't win the day on the battlefield, where 1-to-1 combat is a far-fetched abstraction. Also, many foot soldiers were badly trained peasants, and the professional (often mercenary) troops usually relied on simple stuff that worked (there are no style points in warfare).

All of which is a long way of saying that combo attacks are bad from more than one perspective.
Instead, I believe close combat should take a hint from what made the FPS genre so successful - it's not about how many key combos you know, but how fast you can do the right thing. Instead of aiming, a system like "Die by the Sword" would be just right. No fancy combos to learn, you just need to be quick enough to move the mouse left when the opponent strikes from there, and right or up when he comes from that direction.

IMHO this satisfies all the game design requirements: It's easy to learn, requires no extraordinary skill, but it's still something where you can always become better and where there will always be someone who's just that tad quicker or more creative than you.

So the system could be very simple initially - press attack button and swing in the direction you want to hit. Press parry button and swing in the direction the attack is coming from. Or use the movement buttons to get away. If you don't get away or parry fast enough, you get hit.
Weapon balance: Heavy weapons do more damage but are slower, light weapons do less damage but are faster.

It could be done with only four directions/attacks (left, right, top and straight thrust (down) ) for starters, and if game testing shows that is not enough, the diagonals can be added, or a second attack button (one for swing, one for thrust).

[edit: spelling errors fixed]

#60 The combos I had mentioned wouldn't be for button mashing, they would be predetermined special attacks that auto-combo like 3 or so hits in succession, not too big, but it hits hard (if it hits) and the player who uses the attack would be forced to remain attacking untill the combo has ended, making it risky to attempt.

All together what I mentioned, it would work for any player, even the mages, who could parry with their staffs, etc.