Are programmers more generous than artists?
by Afrim Kacaj · in General Discussion · 04/26/2007 (10:47 pm) · 85 replies
Flame me if I am wrong but there are a ton of free code resources here on GG but every time I need some sort of art related material I find myself paying for it. And when I do find good free art there is always strings attached to it.
Is a detailed how to make a normal map tutorial equivalent in value to a detailed camera resource which includes the source code? In my opinion it is equivalent to a programmer writing a resource without posting a single line of code. No pun intended to the authors of the above mentioned resources.
I am probably not the right person to complain about this considering that I have only posted one resource myself. But I would certainly be willing to post more resources if I didnt have to waste so much time trying to design a shack that 10,000 other people have designed before and most deffinetly look better than mine! And dont even get me started on textures because there has got to be a zillion stone wall textures out there!
I would also like to point out that a recent animation pack currently being sold on GG would be worth nothing if it werent for all the free code resources referenced by it!
:)
Is a detailed how to make a normal map tutorial equivalent in value to a detailed camera resource which includes the source code? In my opinion it is equivalent to a programmer writing a resource without posting a single line of code. No pun intended to the authors of the above mentioned resources.
I am probably not the right person to complain about this considering that I have only posted one resource myself. But I would certainly be willing to post more resources if I didnt have to waste so much time trying to design a shack that 10,000 other people have designed before and most deffinetly look better than mine! And dont even get me started on textures because there has got to be a zillion stone wall textures out there!
I would also like to point out that a recent animation pack currently being sold on GG would be worth nothing if it werent for all the free code resources referenced by it!
:)
#22
My experience is just the opposite. I always have the code but never the artists. :)
04/30/2007 (10:22 am)
@BarryMy experience is just the opposite. I always have the code but never the artists. :)
#23
For some projects it's programmers, some it's artists. Just never at the right time!
04/30/2007 (10:27 am)
Perhaps the rule has changed: That which you need, you will not be able to find for the price you wish to pay.For some projects it's programmers, some it's artists. Just never at the right time!
#24
As far as that failing, it's my belief that programmers get by better with programmer art than artists can get by with artist programming.
If you look at my little projects you'd learn that everything can be represented by art from the checkers pack in the TGB demo.
04/30/2007 (10:44 am)
@David That more or less fits in with what I'm saying. Joining a team as a programmer would be a lot like going to work after I get home from work.As far as that failing, it's my belief that programmers get by better with programmer art than artists can get by with artist programming.
If you look at my little projects you'd learn that everything can be represented by art from the checkers pack in the TGB demo.
#25
"1. The work required to produce free art is nearly indistinguishable from an artists paid work process."
Where in the world did you come up with that assumption? My time isn't infinite, and I do intend to get a return on both the time spent learning each application as well as the money I had to pay for those applications.
There are a number of threads in these forums that I have offered free art (granted it's not anything to get excited about), but I've had mediocre response at best. I'm not even giving it away in the hopes that I'll get some help in the programming department right now; I just do it as a way to practice, and hope to help others who lack those particular skills. As far as financial gain goes, the one pack I do sell has had a luke-warm response at best with the GG community.
I still intend to support Torque when making future content packs, but threads like this really make me wonder if spending time on free stuff is really worth it. I don't say anything about programmers, because I have no idea how much work goes into it; I would have expected the reverse to be true.
-Keith
04/30/2007 (11:30 am)
Sorry if I take this thread the wrong way, but it does seem pretty petty to me. I've put up free art for awhile now (off and on); the "de-motivator" for me is when an artist gets little to no feedback, or even a thanks....but there sure are plenty of downloads."1. The work required to produce free art is nearly indistinguishable from an artists paid work process."
Where in the world did you come up with that assumption? My time isn't infinite, and I do intend to get a return on both the time spent learning each application as well as the money I had to pay for those applications.
There are a number of threads in these forums that I have offered free art (granted it's not anything to get excited about), but I've had mediocre response at best. I'm not even giving it away in the hopes that I'll get some help in the programming department right now; I just do it as a way to practice, and hope to help others who lack those particular skills. As far as financial gain goes, the one pack I do sell has had a luke-warm response at best with the GG community.
I still intend to support Torque when making future content packs, but threads like this really make me wonder if spending time on free stuff is really worth it. I don't say anything about programmers, because I have no idea how much work goes into it; I would have expected the reverse to be true.
-Keith
#26
As far as time goes, there is usually much more art content required in a game than programming content and most successful commercial companies have about twice as many artists as coders.
Perhaps the problem comes down to lack of faith in the potential success of other people's projects. I have seen a few artists-looking-for-free-coders adverts which I've ignored because in my opinion, the project looked doomed to fail and my time investment would not yeild anything, Likewise I suspect artists only want to work for free if they come across a project which they think, in their opinion, will lead to reward in the form of money or exposure/recognition (leading to money)
A share of profit venture usually means no-money-here to most people and they are usually right.
But this thread is about generosity. An artists trying to recoup money for his cost of Max or Maya does not warrant any sympathy from programmers who likewise have to spend money on tools and training.
The resource section is about saving/exchanging time. Any programmer, given enough time, can usually figure out a solution to any desired feature. Making use of a resource will usually save a huge time investment and contributing a resource will save someone else a huge time investment.
A resource section contributed by artists will help even out the playing field because a lot of artists are making games based on copy/paste resources which means they benefit from other peoples time while giving nothing back, or so it seems. Having an official artists resource section will ease the rift between programmers and artists.
04/30/2007 (1:35 pm)
Quote:I thinks thats half the problem. The free art that may exist is lost in various threads. GG should put up a resource section for artists with searchable keywords etc. (Who provides the hard-drive space?)
There are a number of threads in these forums that I have offered free art
As far as time goes, there is usually much more art content required in a game than programming content and most successful commercial companies have about twice as many artists as coders.
Perhaps the problem comes down to lack of faith in the potential success of other people's projects. I have seen a few artists-looking-for-free-coders adverts which I've ignored because in my opinion, the project looked doomed to fail and my time investment would not yeild anything, Likewise I suspect artists only want to work for free if they come across a project which they think, in their opinion, will lead to reward in the form of money or exposure/recognition (leading to money)
A share of profit venture usually means no-money-here to most people and they are usually right.
But this thread is about generosity. An artists trying to recoup money for his cost of Max or Maya does not warrant any sympathy from programmers who likewise have to spend money on tools and training.
The resource section is about saving/exchanging time. Any programmer, given enough time, can usually figure out a solution to any desired feature. Making use of a resource will usually save a huge time investment and contributing a resource will save someone else a huge time investment.
A resource section contributed by artists will help even out the playing field because a lot of artists are making games based on copy/paste resources which means they benefit from other peoples time while giving nothing back, or so it seems. Having an official artists resource section will ease the rift between programmers and artists.
#27
I also agree that this thread is about generosity, but from the sounds of it, it seems that people are coming down on artists for not giving enough free stuff. All I'm saying is that type of dialogue isn't going to promote more generosity among the artists here.
I would imagine a lot of programmers also grab the free art without giving any free resources themselves; since I don't see any statistical information putting one group ahead of the other in generosity, I can't tell you for sure.
I know a number of artists who would work for free on a project without needing the game to lead to money, or fame....they just want to work on a game that will be finished, sometimes to help familiarize themselves with the whole process.
I'm not trying to be difficult, but this thread could be one of the reasons why there doesn't appear to be as much free art as you would all like. It's almost like an "Us versus Them" thread. There have been several threads that were started to get an idea as to what people would want in an art asset (free or pay)....they usually just die out, without much of an idea as to what is needed.
Again, I don't mean to offend anyone.
-Keith
04/30/2007 (2:10 pm)
I agree that a nice resource section would be nice (other than the Freebies section they already have, I assume).I also agree that this thread is about generosity, but from the sounds of it, it seems that people are coming down on artists for not giving enough free stuff. All I'm saying is that type of dialogue isn't going to promote more generosity among the artists here.
I would imagine a lot of programmers also grab the free art without giving any free resources themselves; since I don't see any statistical information putting one group ahead of the other in generosity, I can't tell you for sure.
I know a number of artists who would work for free on a project without needing the game to lead to money, or fame....they just want to work on a game that will be finished, sometimes to help familiarize themselves with the whole process.
I'm not trying to be difficult, but this thread could be one of the reasons why there doesn't appear to be as much free art as you would all like. It's almost like an "Us versus Them" thread. There have been several threads that were started to get an idea as to what people would want in an art asset (free or pay)....they usually just die out, without much of an idea as to what is needed.
Again, I don't mean to offend anyone.
-Keith
#28
04/30/2007 (2:50 pm)
Will someone please pay me for the time I lost of my life whilst reading this drivel? 
#30
04/30/2007 (3:15 pm)
I dont know, how much money did each one give you; Both are one anyway!
#32
No. But I charge by the syllable for reading my posts. Why else do you think I type so much crap? It's like addwords...for crap.
05/01/2007 (7:37 am)
@CraigNo. But I charge by the syllable for reading my posts. Why else do you think I type so much crap? It's like addwords...for crap.
#33
The original shader code had a clear copyright that allowed me to post the modified versions.
The Jill model I used as a testbed for the shader was purchased and I cannot give out the mesh or the textures.
So there you go.. an example of both code and art and the reason I posted one and not the other.
I have lots of other art here that is in a similar bind. It's not mine to give to other people, but my license allows me to modify and use it for my own purposes. I have lots of other code here too, but the licenses for that code usually allow me to post derived works as long as I give credit to the original author.
@David and @Craig
I'll send you your cheques as soon as you pay the accounting fee required for me to process your invoices.
05/01/2007 (9:21 am)
I just posted some shader code that I reworked from various sources, but I did not post the source art for the shaders.The original shader code had a clear copyright that allowed me to post the modified versions.
The Jill model I used as a testbed for the shader was purchased and I cannot give out the mesh or the textures.
So there you go.. an example of both code and art and the reason I posted one and not the other.
I have lots of other art here that is in a similar bind. It's not mine to give to other people, but my license allows me to modify and use it for my own purposes. I have lots of other code here too, but the licenses for that code usually allow me to post derived works as long as I give credit to the original author.
@David and @Craig
I'll send you your cheques as soon as you pay the accounting fee required for me to process your invoices.
#34
I also spend a great deal of time making general tutorials, and now that I'm the proud owner of a license of TGE, I'm going to be adding Torque tutorials into the mix.
www.poopinmymouth.com/3d/3d.htm My 3d page. Just look for the
button under any personal art entries to get the zip file download. Most of them are rigged, none are animated (not really an animator)
05/03/2007 (8:40 am)
Well, we artists are normally a selfish bunch. That said, I give a way a lot of art on my site, however it's for learning purposes only and may not be used in a commercial game. Prototyping or free games are fine as long as I get credit, and links to my websites, as well as screenshots sent back to me (I want to see what was made). I also spend a great deal of time making general tutorials, and now that I'm the proud owner of a license of TGE, I'm going to be adding Torque tutorials into the mix.
www.poopinmymouth.com/3d/3d.htm My 3d page. Just look for the
button under any personal art entries to get the zip file download. Most of them are rigged, none are animated (not really an animator)
#35
-Keith
05/03/2007 (2:30 pm)
Hey Ben; I've had your place in our links for awhile now over at our forums. You've been a big help to many, thanks. :)-Keith
#36
It's very cool to see you here on the GG boards. Your website is required viewing for my interns.
If you ever get back to Virginia (or North Carolina) for a speaking engagement, I'd love to attend.
05/03/2007 (3:44 pm)
@Ben M.It's very cool to see you here on the GG boards. Your website is required viewing for my interns.
If you ever get back to Virginia (or North Carolina) for a speaking engagement, I'd love to attend.
#38
Aaron, I might very well be back to give a lecture at VCU soon, I'll figure out a way to let people on the GG forums know before it happens.
I went to VCU and SCAD, but I don't endorse either school. I'd say 95% of my skillset and knowledge is self taught or learned from friends.
05/03/2007 (4:29 pm)
Oh my, *blush* seems I'm already known around these parts. :-) Thanks guysAaron, I might very well be back to give a lecture at VCU soon, I'll figure out a way to let people on the GG forums know before it happens.
I went to VCU and SCAD, but I don't endorse either school. I'd say 95% of my skillset and knowledge is self taught or learned from friends.
#39
I think they are equally generous, and for similar reasons. I've seen/gotten tons of great free code and art. Linux comes to mind. GG resources another (EULA notwithstanding, no one makes people put up resources). And on the squid you'll find some ASTOUNDING artwork available gratis.
People are great.
05/03/2007 (11:41 pm)
Check out Turbosquid, TONS of free art for games. I should know...I've used a a ton of it in my game.I think they are equally generous, and for similar reasons. I've seen/gotten tons of great free code and art. Linux comes to mind. GG resources another (EULA notwithstanding, no one makes people put up resources). And on the squid you'll find some ASTOUNDING artwork available gratis.
People are great.
Torque Owner Barry Gallagher
I was on a couple of projects that fell by the roadside because of this.
One in particular that was going for years, we had all the models ready to go but couldnt get a programmer. Atleast not one that stayed for any considerable duration anyway.
Not that im naive enough to think thats the general standpoint of programmers, just my own past experiences.