Future of Torque on Linux

#41 @David: I don't make those decisions man, sorry. Will check up and see what folks think.

#42

Quote:I cannot count how many times that people have said "windows only!!!", which cannot be farther from the truth when it comes to underlying technology design. What people really mean, even if they don't understand it, is that the current release has a fully platform abstracted GFX layer, with an example DX9 device implementation.

Note what I said about fully abstracted: In my humble opinion, it would take a small dedicated team (1-3 developers) experienced with OpenGL programming less than 2 months to produce an OpenGL device for the GFX layer....yet not one as far as I am aware have even begun such a project, even though GFX has been part of the design for more than 2 years, and we've been describing how building a new rendering device would work for more than a year.

That's always been the line from GG, and it may well be accurate. For practical purposes, I can't run my TGEA license on linux or mac, right now, and it would take me minimum two months to make it run. That's not really something a hobbyist is going to want to do. Anytime you want to say that TGEA isn't windows-only, you need to suffix "will run on linux and mac if you spend two to six man months writing an OpenGL layer".

Also, to reference the mighty Icculus again, "nothing is portable until it's ported, and all the planning in the world doesn't beat Murphy's Law.".

In other words, yes, theoretically GFX is fairly easy to slap OpenGL into. I'll believe it when I see it, until then GFX is just a DX9-only tool

Quote:I would even be willing to state that the latest version of our engines (TGE-A vs TGE for example) are more cross platform than any previous Torque technology--if you look closely at TGE's D3D implementation, you'll note that it's actually a wrapper around OpenGL, and there is OpenGL code scattered all throughout the code base....not particularly cross-platform friendly at all.

That depends on your definition of cross-platform :-)
For me, cross-platform in my game stuff means linux, mac, windows. Maybe solaris and freebsd depending on how much I hate myself that day. OpenGL code smattered across a codebase is perfectly cross-platform to me. And I imagine that it's perfectly cross-platform for most people using Torque, especially the hobbyists.

On the other hand, I do recognise that games consoles are part of what is considered "cross-platform" in this day and age, and especially to GarageGames. Smatterings of OpenGL are a royal PITA for that task. I don't know what to say there.

All this boils down to me selfishly wanting stuff that isn't windows, and not having an XBox360. I have a hard time believing that I'm really all that unique.

Quote:What people are still not listening to is the fact that GarageGames has always been a cross-platform supporter. Since the beginning, all of our engines are designed with cross platform capability built right in to the fundamental design requirements, and being able to purchase the source code (Constructor not withstanding) gives you the developers unparalleled flexibility in your target platform(s).

Yes, and right now it's true, and it's the single reason I'm a GG customer. This thread was started because there are indications that GG is moving away from this, or at least re-defining "cross platform" to mean "windows and XBox360, maybe PS3 or Wii" instead of "Windows, Linux, Mac, and open to suggestion".

..And the first few GG comments in this thread, that Linux isn't worth the investment, too hard to support, too hard to satisy the users, sadly seem to validate it.

Gary (-;

#43 :. So, we are all lost in a ocean of doubts and uncertainty. As far as I could understand the work actually done by GG is cross-platform, but it is a concrete thing only in Windows realm (DX9 implementation). Why not using an OpenGL implementation in the first place which is present in virtually all platforms? You GG could still target Windows users as you wish, but give us (Linux fellows) a hope.

:. You haven't got enough money to have a guy in head of the OpenGL implementation, also ignore the attempts of skilled guys in Linux Community to help you. Why is that? To protect code? To benefit a specific platform? To punish Linux users for not buying the Linux version of the games? Games indeed are not the only thing you can do with a 3d engine. Linux is spreading very quickly, for example over here in Brazil, and many companies products (ERP, CRM, etc...), schools, universities and the own government are all using it heavily. Soon or later a 3D solution will take part of those businesses, a tool like TGEA would be a natural choice.

Quote:
by Stephen Zepp: "@David: I don't make those decisions man, sorry. Will check up and see what folks think."

:. Please, turn the stuff on this thread known by the people whom make them. Perhaps it will be the difference.

Roque

#44 I don't know how many times I have to say it...it comes down to the profitability. Please stop making up/implying reasons why GG may or may not be going away from linux (paraphrase there of someone else's words, etc).

All I can say myself is that I'll raise your points with the decision makers, but I haven't seen anything at all in this thread (with the possible exception of an email I received from David) that I would guess would change their minds--at this point, GG is in a "show us the money" point of view with regards to linux, since we have already been through the "we'll do anything it takes to work on linux" phase and it just hasn't worked out.

I know that sounds mercenary guys, and I'm sorry about that, but I'm being very up front with folks here about the way we look at the OS at this time. Our past history has proven that we were a believer when it comes to alternate operating systems, but at least when it comes down to games and game development, the market is speaking otherwise.

#45 Profit?
Hmm... I bought TGE and TGE-A because of OpenGL and cross-platform support in mind. It was a bit disapointing for me that TGE-A in the Version 1.0.X still has no OpenGL support, so i don't use TGE-A because of the missing OpenGL.
But the Point is i spend my money in two Products from GG, not some one else. I would call this a Profit.

A Survey with all who bought a License of a Engine (TGE / TGE-A) would be very interesting.
Some thing like:
For which Systems or OSs you are using or plan to use the Engine:
Windows
Linux
MacOSX
BSD
...


Martin

#46 @Stephen: In the end, the question that started this thread was:

Quote:Please, someone possibly from GG could really tell me what is the future of Torque on Linux? Are there any plans? Can we be confident about using Torque for short and long term projects? The Releases will closely follow Windows ones, differently to what is happening nowdays?

No-one's disputing that GG have supported linux fantastically in the past, and currently the community's doing a pretty good job on its own. But that doesn't answer any questions;

Is TGE just going to diverge from supporting Linux to the point where it eventually becomes infeasible for a hobbyist to take the time to make it run for them each release?
Is an OpenGL layer in TGEA something GG are now just not intending to do in-house?
Do GG have any interest in TGB running on Linux anymore? There hasn't been a penguin badge on the TGB homepage for quite some time, now. TGB ran on Linux very well, until some pathologically non-cross-platform decisions were made.

Quote:Please stop making up/implying reasons why GG may or may not be going away from linux

That was never the original question. It just seems, to those of us standing outside the loop, that GG are actively moving away from supporting Linux. If that's not the case, then, awesome, rock on, this thread can end and everyone's happy.


Oh, also... I'm sorry, I've re-read a lot of my responses in this thread and I came off as thoroughly hostile, for while I sincerely apologise. I'm trying to be metered, but this is a topic that makes a difference to me.

Gary (-;

#47 I understand everyone's concerns...and in some ways I reflect them. I'm "not happy" (there isn't a term that applies really--not frustrated or anything, because I do personally understand the business reasons) with the fact that we cannot support as many platforms as possible, and to be honest GG as a whole isn't "happy" with that either.

As of right now, there isn't any change in the priorities for linux support. It's currently not a company priority, or even development flow consideration factor, and until a formal announcement is made, that won't change.

What does this mean to you guys?

It means that, especially recently, what we see with things like the "steps to compile on version XXX", and especially Dreamer's recent "linux installer" are wonderful things, and as it stands right now, the future of Torque on linux.

The same goes with TGB--we've had a very big market segment (education) with some very important requirements for TGB to be successful for that segment, and that has been the driving factors for development. To meet their needs, yes, I agree there has been some shortcuts that have been taken to meet them in the short term that are platform specific...and I can't promise that will change any time in the near future.

I will tell you this however--while linux specifically isn't a controlling design factor, cross platform is, and work that we do will continue to reflect that priority as much as possible consistent with our company needs.

I can't (and wouldn't even if I could) give you a timeline on OpenGL device for TGE-A specifically. We are aware of the request, and we respect it. We even see the benefits--we always have.

#48 Hey Stephen:

Quote:
I know that sounds mercenary guys, and I'm sorry about that, but I'm being very up front with folks here about the way we look at the OS at this time. Our past history has proven that we were a believer when it comes to alternate operating systems, but at least when it comes down to games and game development, the market is speaking otherwise.

I wasn't here whenever that happened, I showed up at torque 1.3 so I was wondering what you are talking about?

Since the time I've been here we haven't got linux showtools and linux constructor besides the tge engine what linux user apps did gg write that I can download since you've already spent the time writing it?

#49 :. Well, that is it! How could we believe on GG if they do not believe us anymore. I believe in miracles, but I think that that situation is virtually unreversible. They will keep certainly working on the engine which will become much better every time. TGE is already a great success. I really apreciated the words about their feelings, respect, and so forth, but as far as I could realized I cannot based serious projects on TGE right now for I want to focus on multiplatform environments, and in despite of the huge effort of some Linux guys It looks like that we are on our own. I will go on with much less featured engines and that will be very painful because I will have to divide my attention, effort and other resources to develop a game/solution but still be concerned about the low level issues. Of course I figured out you tried very much in the past. Many thanks. I am just a voice in the crowd anyway.

#50 Rogue:

Quote:but as far as I could realized I cannot based serious projects on TGE right now for I want to focus on multiplatform environments

I am working on a "serious" project, and it's based on TGE.
I can understand when GG need to do some "not-cross-platform" stuff when building TGB, but T2D core is still functional on all platforms (as of 1.1.3).
Actually, I understand frustrations... (I'm in the same boat). And I've paid money for a GOOD engine with full sources, that capable of doing many stuff I need (cross-platform). All the rest I can "add" by myself.

TGE? - a fully cross-platform engine for now. A few fixes (thanks Dreamer for his script) and you can run it on all linux-based systems. If you talking about MMO***, then Linux is mostly about server-side - and that side is perfect in Torque. During last 1.5 years I haven't seen a single crash of server on Linux.

TGB? The "core" (T2D) is functional in all platforms, but the "Builder" is limited for now.

TGEA? Stephen said all that's needed to be said: it's "ready" for cross-platform. Yeah, it's not OpenGL-ready, but the technology is done in a way of capable to handle that.

Anyway, all of that is my own thoughts.
I'm happy with my purchases (I've bought all major products - TGE/TGEA/TGB/AFX from GG). And I'm looking forward for further development of what they do.

#51 A Survey with all who bought a License of a Engine (TGE / TGE-A) would be very interesting.
Some thing like:
For which Systems or OSs you are using or plan to use the Engine:
Windows
Linux
MacOSX
BSD
...



I love my Linux!!!!!!

#52 I love Linux as well, put a fair amount of energy and time into TGE-L 1.4 for GG. To be honest, at first I felt slighted by GG for not supporting Linux and as if they were brushing off the GG Linux community.

Took me a couple of months away from GG (recovering from medical issues) to realize that GG was just making a sound business decision.

I feel that GG still cares about Linux and the GG Linux community, they just do not think it is a wise business decision put funding into officially supporting it. Now, that does not mean that we can not collaborate on maintaining and enhancing the TGE-L platform. One major change I was interested in was retooling to use GTK (or something similar). TGE's Linux Platform is old and clunky, it needs some major TLC and a face lift, similar to what Paul S did for MacOS.

We can sit here and waste our time complaining, whining and moaning about GG's decision(s) or we can venture out and take TGE-L to the next level.

#53 Not sure if this idea could fly. Create a linux distro with all the "goodies" installed. Could have two versions, one with the demo and the other with source. This way everyone would be working off of the the same distro (probably debian/ubuntu). Would also be nice to have a live cd to help people compile there games into linux ;). I would love to do this myself but not sure how. Also, not sure how to distribute the source code per eula. Wonder what type of reaction the demo distro would get if placed on soemthing like distrowatch.com.

#54 For what it's worth; I /like/ the current unix platform layer. Retooling it to use a higher level toolkit wouldn't really add anything except complexity, and would probably make running it on other unices a lot harder. It's really hard to beat a working implementation on Xlib for cross-unix compatability :-)

On the other hand, you've totally put the idea of a platformWxWidgets in my head, now.

I was looking at rolling my own distro recently, with my own extra guff on it. Few links worth noting, for the interested:
Ubuntu: uck.sourceforge.net/
files.akl.lt/Linux/Ubuntu/custom-dapper-livecd.htm
And no list of live CD links is complete without Knoppix:
www.knoppix.com/
www.mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html

Personally, I have platformX86UNIX 1.5.1 working on linux and OSX right now; in the past I've had it working on solaris. I don't forsee that changing for 1.5.2. TGE saliently works just fine right now. The concern is that by actively not paying attention to basic cross-platform tenets [things like simple case sensitivity. OSX and Windows aren't case sensitive, so there was at least one release of T2D that wouldn't compile on linux thanks to a case sensitive #include], TGE will eventually diverge to the point where porting to linux is a major project, each and every release.

If GG literally stop caring about LKinux at all, then that case sensitivity bug would never be fixed. Now imagine that those things start adding up. Nightmare scenario for community simpletons like me; suddenly torque goes from something I can have fun adding to, to something that requires me to spend days making it compile, every release.

Gary (-;

#55 Only reason I mentioned the likes of GTK+ was the ability to have a decent menu system to replace the hand rolled menus TGE-L uses. Currently both Win32 and OSX use native system calls to generate menus as well as other items (directory lists for example), would be nice to use something like GTK+ that would make implementing such features under linux easier (and prettier).

WxWidgets.. hrmm now that is something to be discussed :)

#56 Realistically, the Linux support for the various flavors is trivial.

we are talking about small code modifications to update for the compiler.
as for packaging there is basically a standardized method that works with all defacto distro's.

the argument that maintenance is complex is a lie.

when you involve a closed source library like the key method used you are adding a complex problem.

if you look at something like nvidia's driver package you will see there is an opportunity to clean up the current application deployment design.

it really should be a trivial problem, that people in marketing have turned into a complex nightmare.

as for integrating more libraries for the ui, I would not bother.

and of course adding code that is not compliant to crossplatform development is ludicrous.
and the dev that submitted the code should have his pee pee slapped.

Edit:
I bought the engine because it is crossplatform.
but currently I am finding more worth in other free software packages that are truly cross platform.

#57 @Gary

This is my biggest concern. Right now the failing linux support is just irritating but i think the lack of a cross platform TGEA is a good example of what you're talking about. Once they quit worrying about cross platform entirely, keeping TGE working on linux will quickly get impossible (not really impossible, just not worth the effort).

It seems apparent that this is their intention and there's certainly nothing being said by GG to make me think any different.

I chose TGE over the multitudes of others because it was cross platform. Linux is and always has been my primary platform. My current project will likely be the last one based on TGE if circumstances do not change.

Of course, "from a business perspective" GG probably doesn't give a damn about me. They already got my money.

#58 I think i read somewhere in this post, that people want Free Games for linux as a reson not to support linux. NOT TRUE, I would like to buy some good games. I play BF2142 currently, and most game like that. But have a very hard time getting them to run under wine. Witch is my only reason for haveing a dual boot system.
If GG wants to make some money off linux, give me some good games. Problem solved!!!

#59 I think that for want of some real figures:

7% of Gish sales were activated on Linux
At least 11% of Tribal Trouble sales were for Linux. Especially notable for being a game built with Torque.

Dunno where GG get their figures from, but 7% and 11% don't seem like a market fraction that would invalidate the investment of time it would take to commit patches from these forums.

Also of note is that the Linux conversion rate for Tribal Trouble is 38% higher than the windows conversion rate. [yay 101 statistics, that it's really easy to make numbers say whatever you want them to say].

Gary (-;

#60 All it will take is for a major AAA type title to support Linux--first. That is, an anticipated game comes out on Linux a month before Winblows. The the patches come out a week earlier, too.

15 year olds are not known for their patience. They'll learn to install Linux just to get the game patches a little earlier. Now they are gaming on Linux.

It will take a number of years, but I think it will happen. Indeed, I think Linux in 2007 has now officially passed on to become generally better than Windows for a desktop OS. It looks great, it works great, it's not perfect--but neither is Windows. And you don't have to beg for permission to install it. And it comes with tons of decent free software. And you don't have to wonder what somebody else is up to on your system (or at least that's not built in!).

I've already got one grandma on Linux. She likes it fine.

Gaming is definitely lagging behind, but I think it will follow as the Desktop becomes more common among normal humans.

I rather expect this to happen first in the Thirld World.

Anyway...I think demand will be increasing long term, for those reasons.