I have to say, I'm not all that impressed so far
by Kurt Koller · in Torque Game Builder · 04/19/2007 (12:29 pm) · 33 replies
We have some developers working on a game that are on Mac and PC. The target for the game is MacOS. This is an installation type project and it has to deploy on Macs.
1. TGB's interface is really really really clunky.
2. Every time we load a project on the Mac, it loads a window, fades out, loads up another differently sized window, then fades out again and loads up a third window, finally with the game in it. sort of.
3. After loading on the Mac, the project is ALWAYS in a hugely wide resolution, and we need to change it to something reasonable, like 1280x800. Once we save and quit, it doesn't remember this on load.
4. To build for the Mac, on the Mac, choosing build does nothing. We have to do "analyze" which takes about 9 minutes on a dual-core 2.33Ghz MacBook pro, and THEN doing a build works. Wow, that build interface is klunky.
5. The Mac version sure crashes a whole lot.
6. The PC version LOOKS like it will build the Mac version, but fails with an "internal error." Not that big a deal.
7. On the PC version, when we copy the project from one machine to another, there appears to be virtually no way to get the project to appear in the project list. On the Mac, we copied it into the games directory with the install it shows. On the PC, we tried that, doesn't work. we ALSO tried copying it to that weird path under C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TorqueGamebuilderPro\games\[game] - it doesn't show up in the project list. So we can't copy this to other developers on PCs. This really sucks for us. New projects that we CREATE show up here, so I'm not sure why this isn't working. Wow, my empire for a freaking browse dialog.
8. When running full screen on the Mac, going into editors it is sometimes IMPOSSIBLE to back out because buttons aren't on the screen. This happens at a resolution like 640x480.
There are a slew more, but I have to say this tool seems really really clunky.
The support is also nonexistent. I tried calling 4 times with questions about licensing, pleading for someone to call me back, and never got a single reply.
1. TGB's interface is really really really clunky.
2. Every time we load a project on the Mac, it loads a window, fades out, loads up another differently sized window, then fades out again and loads up a third window, finally with the game in it. sort of.
3. After loading on the Mac, the project is ALWAYS in a hugely wide resolution, and we need to change it to something reasonable, like 1280x800. Once we save and quit, it doesn't remember this on load.
4. To build for the Mac, on the Mac, choosing build does nothing. We have to do "analyze" which takes about 9 minutes on a dual-core 2.33Ghz MacBook pro, and THEN doing a build works. Wow, that build interface is klunky.
5. The Mac version sure crashes a whole lot.
6. The PC version LOOKS like it will build the Mac version, but fails with an "internal error." Not that big a deal.
7. On the PC version, when we copy the project from one machine to another, there appears to be virtually no way to get the project to appear in the project list. On the Mac, we copied it into the games directory with the install it shows. On the PC, we tried that, doesn't work. we ALSO tried copying it to that weird path under C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TorqueGamebuilderPro\games\[game] - it doesn't show up in the project list. So we can't copy this to other developers on PCs. This really sucks for us. New projects that we CREATE show up here, so I'm not sure why this isn't working. Wow, my empire for a freaking browse dialog.
8. When running full screen on the Mac, going into editors it is sometimes IMPOSSIBLE to back out because buttons aren't on the screen. This happens at a resolution like 640x480.
There are a slew more, but I have to say this tool seems really really clunky.
The support is also nonexistent. I tried calling 4 times with questions about licensing, pleading for someone to call me back, and never got a single reply.
#2
04/27/2007 (7:16 am)
Kurt analyzing time depends on the size of the project and the amount of code that has to be analyzed ... there is no way to shortcut it ...
#3
04/27/2007 (7:41 am)
Why can't I just load and build in one step? What does analyze do and why does it iterate over the project files 5x?
#4
04/27/2007 (7:48 am)
Quote:7. On the PC version, when we copy the project from one machine to another, there appears to be virtually no way to get the project to appear in the project list. On the Mac, we copied it into the games directory with the install it shows. On the PC, we tried that, doesn't work. we ALSO tried copying it to that weird path under C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TorqueGamebuilderPro\games\[game] - it doesn't show up in the project list. So we can't copy this to other developers on PCs. This really sucks for us. New projects that we CREATE show up here, so I'm not sure why this isn't working. Wow, my empire for a freaking browse dialog.What I do (on PC, I don't use Mac for development), is create a project in TGB using the same name as the one I want to copy. Then copy the files over that new blank project folder. If I do it that way, the project shows up fine.
Quote:4. To build for the Mac, on the Mac, choosing build does nothing. We have to do "analyze" which takes about 9 minutes on a dual-core 2.33Ghz MacBook pro, and THEN doing a build works. Wow, that build interface is klunky.Build does't do anything becuase you need to analyse first. It would probably be better to have a button called "analyze and build", or disable build when you haven't "analyzed" it yet. When TGB (T2D) was first released, you had to do this manually. Trust me, pressing the analyze button and having to wait a couple of minutes saves you a lot of time. You can still do it all manually if you think you can do it faster ;)
#5
It does this, to ensure that the 'build' has what it needs, and nothing else ... you could, if you wanted too ... write a reverse 'delete dsos' batch file which just deletes your scripts ... do a precompile with torsion or by test running your game ... then delete all the scripts ...and thats pretty much what build winds up with ... however, there is more to it then that ... like Ward said ... analyze may seem to take a long time ... but seriously ... 10 minutes to make a release candidate build? c'mon now ... I have projects at work (not game related) that when I want to test run them to try some code ... I have to wait for a LONG ASS time ... 10 minutes is nothing ...
04/27/2007 (8:12 am)
Kurt -- analyze reads through all your scripts, checking it twice (like santa clause, I guess) and checks for all the resources you are using ... this includes, but is not limited too, art resources you have added to the project from the Resources section, images, shapes, tile layers, maps, particles, scripts themselves (it chains through from main.cs on up the execution line)It does this, to ensure that the 'build' has what it needs, and nothing else ... you could, if you wanted too ... write a reverse 'delete dsos' batch file which just deletes your scripts ... do a precompile with torsion or by test running your game ... then delete all the scripts ...and thats pretty much what build winds up with ... however, there is more to it then that ... like Ward said ... analyze may seem to take a long time ... but seriously ... 10 minutes to make a release candidate build? c'mon now ... I have projects at work (not game related) that when I want to test run them to try some code ... I have to wait for a LONG ASS time ... 10 minutes is nothing ...
#6
if you have the Pro version, you can change the 'build' button to be 'Analyze and Build' if that extra button press really annoys you that much ... I'm pretty sure both buttons are just bound to a simple function which calls a much more complex function ...
Another additive is, I believe all the analyzing functionality is built with TorqueScript ... and for this reason, it's a little slower then it could be ... BUT ... it's not built into your games exe either ... "Build" is also usually something you only do ... what ... a few times during the games development cycle? You shouldn't be building every time you want to test your code ... and ... if for some reason you need to create some sort of a 'nightly build' (some people need this) you could easily script out the analyze and build functionality and run it from the command line without ever showing the UI ... just look at the function calls attached to the 'analyze' and 'build' buttons ... the codes available in the Pro version.
A Nightly Build would allow you to let the system build it over night, so when you come in the next morning ... your testers can work with the code you wrote yesterday .... removing you from having to build a binary for your testers to work with ...
04/27/2007 (8:19 am)
Oh and ... for #7 --- when I want to make a copy of a project with 1.1.3 ... all I do is copy the directory of the project in the games folder, and paste it ... then rename it (from "Copy of Game" to "Game2" or whatever) and it shows up fine ... Quote:
Why can't I just load and build in one step? What does analyze do and why does it iterate over the project files 5x?
if you have the Pro version, you can change the 'build' button to be 'Analyze and Build' if that extra button press really annoys you that much ... I'm pretty sure both buttons are just bound to a simple function which calls a much more complex function ...
Another additive is, I believe all the analyzing functionality is built with TorqueScript ... and for this reason, it's a little slower then it could be ... BUT ... it's not built into your games exe either ... "Build" is also usually something you only do ... what ... a few times during the games development cycle? You shouldn't be building every time you want to test your code ... and ... if for some reason you need to create some sort of a 'nightly build' (some people need this) you could easily script out the analyze and build functionality and run it from the command line without ever showing the UI ... just look at the function calls attached to the 'analyze' and 'build' buttons ... the codes available in the Pro version.
A Nightly Build would allow you to let the system build it over night, so when you come in the next morning ... your testers can work with the code you wrote yesterday .... removing you from having to build a binary for your testers to work with ...
#7
Sorry to hear you're having difficulty mastering TGB's user interface; it can be a bit intimidating if you're not familiar with game creation in general.
Looking at your list of complaints, it seems that you might benefit quite a bit from the 1.5 Beta download that is available from your Torque Game Builder Pro download page in My Account.
Hope this helps,
-Justin
04/27/2007 (8:40 am)
Hey Kurt,Sorry to hear you're having difficulty mastering TGB's user interface; it can be a bit intimidating if you're not familiar with game creation in general.
Looking at your list of complaints, it seems that you might benefit quite a bit from the 1.5 Beta download that is available from your Torque Game Builder Pro download page in My Account.
Hope this helps,
-Justin
#8
Justin, I've worked with game tools before, what I mean by clunky is stuff like you click the analyze button and the curser just freezes in place and the feedback starts after a bit on a long process. The process looks like it's looping because it's going over the material multiple times, but you're afraid to do anything cos the mouse is frozen.
I need a product in a kiosk on memorial day to try to sell more work, so I am loate to switch to the beta now, particularly since I read in another thread there's no import and you pretty much need to start from scratch - is that correct? also we have the mac/pc thing happening, develop on the PC, release on the Mac, unfortunate since the tools aren't synced. I think we may end up faking this and running Bootcamp on the Macs.
David, thanks for the heads up n the build, you're right. My role on this project unfortunately is more client interface, and so I'm working some people making stuff on PCs, and I pretty much just do the build part of it to do daily releases to the entity paying the bills. So I will look into a way to do this on the command-line. I assumed the interface was GUI driven, but I opened up one of the DSO files accidentally and saw command-line options embedded in it, so that's cool.
Ward, yeah duh, I wasn't thinking. Thank you for thinking for me on this. I think my recent switch to the Mac is making me slightly brain dead, that or this sinus infection I've been fighting for 2 weeks. Parallels is great but I spend a lot more time in the Mac OS (even though the interface and finder truly suck in many ways compared to windows/explorer, especially if you're keyboard oriented, don't get me started) and maybe it's having a bad effect on my brain or something. Heh.
04/27/2007 (1:39 pm)
Thanks for all the followup.Justin, I've worked with game tools before, what I mean by clunky is stuff like you click the analyze button and the curser just freezes in place and the feedback starts after a bit on a long process. The process looks like it's looping because it's going over the material multiple times, but you're afraid to do anything cos the mouse is frozen.
I need a product in a kiosk on memorial day to try to sell more work, so I am loate to switch to the beta now, particularly since I read in another thread there's no import and you pretty much need to start from scratch - is that correct? also we have the mac/pc thing happening, develop on the PC, release on the Mac, unfortunate since the tools aren't synced. I think we may end up faking this and running Bootcamp on the Macs.
David, thanks for the heads up n the build, you're right. My role on this project unfortunately is more client interface, and so I'm working some people making stuff on PCs, and I pretty much just do the build part of it to do daily releases to the entity paying the bills. So I will look into a way to do this on the command-line. I assumed the interface was GUI driven, but I opened up one of the DSO files accidentally and saw command-line options embedded in it, so that's cool.
Ward, yeah duh, I wasn't thinking. Thank you for thinking for me on this. I think my recent switch to the Mac is making me slightly brain dead, that or this sinus infection I've been fighting for 2 weeks. Parallels is great but I spend a lot more time in the Mac OS (even though the interface and finder truly suck in many ways compared to windows/explorer, especially if you're keyboard oriented, don't get me started) and maybe it's having a bad effect on my brain or something. Heh.
#9
04/27/2007 (2:07 pm)
A thing to keep in mind too, is that this is a very early version of the engine. In the future GG will be updating the engine and hopefully adding new features. I'm hoping that a lot of bugs get fixed too, because It's actually easy to use TGB once you get the hang of it, and I'd hate to go back to using a 3d engine for 2d games.
#10
If the kiosk's will be Mac hardware, I'd just say to build for the Mac ... really shouldn't be any changes necessary to the code ... only real issues between the two would be input interpretation, and if the games developed properly ... input should be easy to change (a preferences file of some sort)
with a kiosk, I would assume you'd be using a touch-screen though ... which would be a mouse driver ... so that shouldn't change any ... if your using a keyboard and it's a custom keyboard ... then that might make a difference ... but I've sent my TGB projects to people with Mac's and they've built them without problem ... and I haven't really heard much about the systems differing in the actual development of the game other then input ... though I could be mistaken, as I usually skip most Mac related threads ;)
04/27/2007 (2:08 pm)
Kurt -- developing on a PC then building on a Mac shouldn't cause any problems ... the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are possible issues with key-bindings as the two systems have slightly different keyboards ... but I'm pretty sure you can get a standard pc keyboard for a mac and tell it to switch the keyboard 'driver' ... being BSD based ... I don't see this being a problem at all ... especially if you'll have control over the systems your releasing it on (you said kiosk, so I assume you can control the hardware)If the kiosk's will be Mac hardware, I'd just say to build for the Mac ... really shouldn't be any changes necessary to the code ... only real issues between the two would be input interpretation, and if the games developed properly ... input should be easy to change (a preferences file of some sort)
with a kiosk, I would assume you'd be using a touch-screen though ... which would be a mouse driver ... so that shouldn't change any ... if your using a keyboard and it's a custom keyboard ... then that might make a difference ... but I've sent my TGB projects to people with Mac's and they've built them without problem ... and I haven't really heard much about the systems differing in the actual development of the game other then input ... though I could be mistaken, as I usually skip most Mac related threads ;)
#11
When I say kiosk - we're building a fake arcade cabinet using a board for wiring that emulates a USB keyboard. We will startup the game, and after that it will use only up/down/loft/right/z/1 keys.
Everything seems good so far.
As far as this being a young version of the engine, I wonder how long this will be supported on the Mac platform?
I don't care much, I'm PC-oriented, but non-religious and so when this came up I said sure what the heck.
04/27/2007 (2:22 pm)
David,When I say kiosk - we're building a fake arcade cabinet using a board for wiring that emulates a USB keyboard. We will startup the game, and after that it will use only up/down/loft/right/z/1 keys.
Everything seems good so far.
As far as this being a young version of the engine, I wonder how long this will be supported on the Mac platform?
I don't care much, I'm PC-oriented, but non-religious and so when this came up I said sure what the heck.
#12
04/27/2007 (2:26 pm)
That "loft" key is tricky...
#13
05/08/2007 (6:24 pm)
TGB should remain OSX friendly throughout it's existance ... the majority of casual gamers use OSX from what I know ... and so, TGB more or less has to support the platform to continue being a viable casual gamer engine ...
#15
David, you can't seriously believe this can you?
I'm very honestly not trying to be offensive or rude here at all, and certainly not to start any sort of argument with you as you know TGB backwards and forwards ... but I can make a release candidate build in Unity of a full 3D first-person shooter with six menu screens and 11 play levels in less than 15 seconds. Mac or Windows simply with the click of a button. 10 minutes? Sorry but I find that sad, funny and simply unacceptable for a 2D game engine.
Don't get me wrong, TGB is a great tool for 2D game development and the 1.5 release will be something I'll look at closely and a tool in my own arsenal, but 10 minutes to build??
05/23/2007 (2:42 pm)
"It does this, to ensure that the 'build' has what it needs, and nothing else ... you could, if you wanted too ... write a reverse 'delete dsos' batch file which just deletes your scripts ... do a precompile with torsion or by test running your game ... then delete all the scripts ...and thats pretty much what build winds up with ... however, there is more to it then that ... like Ward said ... analyze may seem to take a long time ... but seriously ... 10 minutes to make a release candidate build? c'mon now ... I have projects at work (not game related) that when I want to test run them to try some code ... I have to wait for a LONG ASS time ... 10 minutes is nothing ..."David, you can't seriously believe this can you?
I'm very honestly not trying to be offensive or rude here at all, and certainly not to start any sort of argument with you as you know TGB backwards and forwards ... but I can make a release candidate build in Unity of a full 3D first-person shooter with six menu screens and 11 play levels in less than 15 seconds. Mac or Windows simply with the click of a button. 10 minutes? Sorry but I find that sad, funny and simply unacceptable for a 2D game engine.
Don't get me wrong, TGB is a great tool for 2D game development and the 1.5 release will be something I'll look at closely and a tool in my own arsenal, but 10 minutes to build??
#16
05/23/2007 (2:47 pm)
I'm curious about item number 6 - does anybody who's used 1.5 know if it's fixed in that version?
#17
So here's what happened:
After a month we scrapped Mac development and are deploying on Mac Mini machines running XP in bootcamp. We made the decision early on because there's a bug in the build process and it doesn't copy over everything used, I guess cos we're doing things in an unconventional way or something. Anyhow we didn't notice early on that it was not copying files during the build process, we thought it was dropping textures on the Intel GMA under OSX, so since we are pretty unfamiliar with the Mac we sort of panicked and changed to XP.
In case anyone cares, the game is complete and is going to be fun for what it is. It's basically a gutted-of-all-fun-by-the-client platformer (no violence, you must remove the rats, etc), 5 levels, with video cutscenes. It'll be traveling around the country in a truck and people will play it as part of a large installation at big gatherings. Here's the last installation we were part of so you get the idea of what this will be like:
Link to flickr
Anyhow, it's sellout corporate stuff. Next we will be retooling as a zombie game, since zombies are hot. I'd use TorqueX and try to work it into an XBLA release, but I have no idea how to convert the project. It would be nice if this were possible.
05/23/2007 (3:31 pm)
Also, I would think that a conversion from 1.1.3 to 1.5 would be top of the list of features, but I don't see that anywhere. Is this feature planned?So here's what happened:
After a month we scrapped Mac development and are deploying on Mac Mini machines running XP in bootcamp. We made the decision early on because there's a bug in the build process and it doesn't copy over everything used, I guess cos we're doing things in an unconventional way or something. Anyhow we didn't notice early on that it was not copying files during the build process, we thought it was dropping textures on the Intel GMA under OSX, so since we are pretty unfamiliar with the Mac we sort of panicked and changed to XP.
In case anyone cares, the game is complete and is going to be fun for what it is. It's basically a gutted-of-all-fun-by-the-client platformer (no violence, you must remove the rats, etc), 5 levels, with video cutscenes. It'll be traveling around the country in a truck and people will play it as part of a large installation at big gatherings. Here's the last installation we were part of so you get the idea of what this will be like:
Link to flickr
Anyhow, it's sellout corporate stuff. Next we will be retooling as a zombie game, since zombies are hot. I'd use TorqueX and try to work it into an XBLA release, but I have no idea how to convert the project. It would be nice if this were possible.
#18
Too much to say on the subject ... not enough people care about the details ... Time is Money, "Do It For Me" is everything ...
05/23/2007 (6:34 pm)
David, I'm not even going to respond ... ;)Too much to say on the subject ... not enough people care about the details ... Time is Money, "Do It For Me" is everything ...
#19
05/23/2007 (7:00 pm)
Nevermind. I was incorrect about the process that was going on.
#20
What does "analyze" DO exactly? I could look at the source, but it appears to just parse the project's cs files and check for dependencies.
The build just copies files.
05/23/2007 (7:03 pm)
I really don't think that the build does a compile of the source. In fact, I know it doesn't.What does "analyze" DO exactly? I could look at the source, but it appears to just parse the project's cs files and check for dependencies.
The build just copies files.
Torque Owner Kurt Koller
Any solution to fullscreen on the Mac?
Hello?