Need an advice (Mac users)

#1 For your specific circumstance, I would recommend Unity. The shader bling that you are missing with the professional version is not the problem. It is the PC publishing that is only available to professional licensees that is. If you are Mac-centric and are looking at a Mac-centric option without any in-engine coding and Cheetah support, then I'd recommend Unity. But it also depends on the type of games that you want to make and the potential audience that you want to reach. And whether or not the options are stock in the engine.

#2 I would sugest Torque Game Builder, from what I can tell all you need is a graphics program that can make .jpg s and .png s. You also don't need to buy the version that offers C++ coding.
I took the latter option and jumped right into it, it worked out fine, but you'll have to change 3D modelling programs (I had maya 7, but the mac exporter never worked).
Unity would be a decent alternative if neither of these look very interesting.

#3 Unity is pretty much a no-go because I really want to bring my games to PC platform. It also is the most expensive option and $250 is pretty much all I can spend now (and I wanted to keep some money and not to spend everything). For Torque Game Builder I'd go for the $100 version, I don't want/need the sourcecode.

#4 Yes. You would have to purchase the professional license to publish stand-alone PC games with Unity. For the bang for the buck and not accessing the C++ side, TGB seems like your best option.

EDIT:
You will need access to a PC to publish to the Windows platform with TGB.

#5 With Unity, you won't need to get a new 3D modeling program. Cheetah 3D works fine with it (the developer is a member of the Unity forums). Also, pretty much any 3D software will work fine. If you get TGE, you'll need to either use Blender which is free, but (most people say) it has a horrible interface and is hard to learn (I actually disagree, I like Blender a lot), or buy Maya, which is $2000 for a license. And then you'll have to hope that the exporter works on a Mac, the Maya one wasn't available for the current version of Maya the last time I tried. Also there is currently no Mac-native interior modeling program for TGE (TGE uses a different format for interiors than the rest of it's models). So you'll need to run that program (Quark or whatever) under Parallels or Bootcamp (or use a PC). Or you can wait for Constructor (I've been waiting almost 2 years since it was first announced).

TGB is a good option if you want to do 2D. However, 1.1.3 was release for Windows three months ago. The Mac version available for download is still 1.1.2. It isn't uncommon for the Mac version to be released much later than the PC version (or have a version skipped for that matter). So that might be worth keeping in mind...

Unity can also build web players that work on Windows (but have a small watermark in the corner) with the Indie version. Watermarks can be a sensitive subject for some so this may be unacceptable for you or it may be fine.

That all said, I like Unity a lot. It has the fastest learning curve and is the easiest (for me) to use. I like that I can do the whole art pipeline on my Mac with my choice of software. The networking isn't nearly as robust as TGE's, but that doesn't really matter for the types of games I make. It may matter to you, and is important for you to consider. I also like TGB a lot, but I'm more frequently frustrated by TGB (for one reason or another) than I am with Unity. If you're dedicated to making games though, I think you'll be happy with either TGB or Unity.

#6 I hace access to a PC so publishing shouldn't be a problem. Watermarks are unacceptable for me, since I clearly want to go for the shareware market in the future (not initially, I know that there's a lot to learn for me). I already had the demo of Unity and I admit it's a cool piece of software. But the hefty pricetag and the limited features of the indie version kinda scare me off. Using Blender for exporting meshes wouldn't be that off a problem since I could do the modelling, animating, texturing, etc. all in Cheetah3D and just use Blender as an converter (don't know how good that would work though but basically it would just be another tool in the pipeline, not a replacement) but you're right: without Contructor TGE is also not that good. I also need to consider that I've never worked with an engine. I've always evaluated and tested to copy things for my own engine but I never did a real game with them (that was back when I was a Windows user). So I Have a lot of programming experience with languages like C#, VisualBasic, BlitzMax, Java, etc. but no scripting experience whatsoever. So it seems Torque Game Builder would be the right choice: just learning Torque Script, writing 2D engines and wait what will be with TGEA and Constructor in 6-12 months. Hmm... why can't Unity be $150? For that price no fullscreen effects and watermark (I'd do Mac only games then) in the corner would be acceptable...

#7 There is not a watermark in Mac stand-alone games with the indie version. There is for the web player. The full-screen bling and r2t can be nice, but is much less important than getting your game functional enough to get investors (or save money or do contract work to pick it up).

A note on boned animation and conversion to other apps. Most of the time the bones do not translate correctly to other applications. Rather, they end up as polies that you will have to rework, reweight, and re-animate. It is a common problem.

Dan brought up a number of great points, especially about Constructor and DIF generation on the Mac. I am wondering what you are specifically trying to make. Right now I'm not sure since you are wavering between TGB and Unity, which are two very different engines with different targets. If a scripting language is your primary requirement, and it sounds like it is because you are sick of programming in another language, then either one will work for you. If cross-platform for a low-price is necessary, then TGB is right for you (as long as you want to make 2D gameS). If a web player is a must for demos, then Unity (even with watermark) is a great choice. Otherwise, you will have to use a third-party web-wrapper and have source-level access (pro license) to TGB.

I guess another question to ask would be "what do you want to make now?" The price of Unity with your current toolset is not that different than TGB + TGEA + Constructor (which sounds like where you are heading). Sure, TGEA allows for full-screen effects and such, but it is also a programmer-oriented C++ engine. It, of course, utilizes TorqueScript, but the power under the hood is in the C++ source. It's a hard decision to make when trying to compare features. But I'm assuming that you have a million game ideas (because everyone who comes here does). Which engine will get them up and running fastest? Download TGB and Unity and test both in terms of the games you want to create (especially the learning game projects).

Both engines are great, but they each have very different pro's and con's to working with them...and most of them do not directly match up because they have different focuses.

#8 Well, as I said I'm aiming for freeware now and shareware in the (not all too far away) future. So I'm not interested in getting investors or so. I'm a student of Maths and currently I'm not interested in messing up my study to go into the game industry. Shareware is also the only option to get some money out of niche markets (and as a lone warrior with nealy no funding and weird game ideas the niche market is all I can hope for) so with Unity $250 I would have to ignore the 90+% of the home computing market. That wouldn't be that much off a problem if it wouldn't cost me $250. I already tried out TGB and Unity and both of them are great. But is Unity Indie $250-great? And will TGEA fit my needs or will I learn Torque Script in vain because I won't be able to reuse it later on (because I realize that I'll have to go with Unity for 3D stuff)? I got many game ideas, 2D as well as 3D (all of them are about either space ships or future-themed racing) so I can't take that for decision. Isn't there some special discount stuff for Unity? Damn that I missed the christmas 20% off special, I would have been the first one in virtual line to purchase >.>

#9 Having exported all of the lowpolycoop files through my iBook (and created most of the models on it as well) I highly recommend Blender and, if you can't get Photoshop, GimpShop. Personally I love Blender, but if you can get Cheetah to make .obj files, relinking the textures and setting up the exports for static objects is no problem (we have some tuts on our site). Blender does a great job of playing well with others and has worked well for me as being the final export program for files that have come from Max, Maya, etc. In fact on all the teams I have been on, Blender has been the one program that can deal with files from all the different artists on the team no matter what program or platform. Also, if you do end up going 2D, there are some nice Blender files out there that have been set up for creating the common orthographic views and rendering them out neatly.

I kind of wrote off trying to make dif files, but, do you have an intel mac? If so, it should be no problem to figure out a way to run a windows program or use WINE to make it happen.

Scott

#10 I *hate* Blender with passion =) I just can't stand the UI and the handling. I just bought a Cheetah3D license a few days ago because this is the 3D tool I've always dreamed about. I'm just interested in using Blender as an converter tool and since Cheetah3D can export .obj files this seems to perfectly possible. So thank you for that information.

And yes, I run an IntelMac but I don't have an Windows license and I don't intend to buy one. But my girlfriend has an laptop which I'd also use to build PC ports of my games if I'd go with some kind of Torque technology.

#11 Here's the feature list. Do you need these for niche games (or at least your niche)?

Publish to PC standalone
Full Screen Graphics Effects
Render-to-Texture Effects
Secured Deployment
Direct Access To OpenGL
C/C++ plug-in support

If you target the Mac niche, you can make back the $250...as long as you've got a good game. Are you, a self-proclaimed lone-wolf, C++ savvy enough for TGEA? Your TorqueScript experience will not be left in the dust, but when it comes to tweaking your gametype, I'm pretty sure you are going to be having a few C++ debugging sessions. Of course, Unity may not be up to your gametypes without extensions. And the C++ SDK integration is part of the pro license.

Take one of your simplest ideas. Prototype it in 2D with TGB and in 3D with Unity. Make it ugly but functional. Then see which one strikes you best as a tool for your workflow.

I personally wouldn't care for most of the pro features in Unity when targeting a niche or casual market. The plug-in support and secured deployment are about the only ones that strike me, and not enough to upgrade my license from indie.

#12 Publish to PC standalone <- this is the most hurting missing feature because of the watermarked browserapp
Full Screen Graphics Effects <- would be nice but not needed
Render-to-Texture Effects <- I don't think so, they can come in handy for some special stuff but in general: no
Secured Deployment <- I have yet to figure out what this means...
Direct Access To OpenGL <- not at all
C/C++ plug-in support <- good god, never want to go back to C/C++!

I wrote an email at the sales departement of OverTheEdge. Maybe they'll give me some rebate coupon or tell me when the next time for discounted licenses will be... If not, I'll go for TGB. $250 is too much, $200 would be acceptable ($50 is a lot of money, I can eat 1/2 month for that >.> And I'm speaking of good food :-P).

#13 Personally, I would have some difficulty giving the $50 off as a company because that's the kind of word that spreads...and $50 adds up very quickly when you start selling quite a few discounted licenses. Unless 2.0 is right around the bend and will require an update fee. They sent around a pricing survey a while back which dictated how much their prices should raise. It was quite interesting to fill out and provide feedback.

#14 For intel macs, I always heard that this would eventually work -- I have a ppc mac so I never got this far but you could try this for difs:

Quark installed with Wine.
quark.planetquake.gamespy.com/infobase/intro.quarkonlinux.installing.html#1wine
winehq.com/

And, for dealing with Blender as an exporter without having to really navigate around in it much:
www.lowpolycoop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25
www.lowpolycoop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8
www.lowpolycoop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=180

This project has a nice template for creating isometric shots for 2d games:
wiki.openttd.org/index.php/32bit_Graphics_Development

Scott

#15 One thing you might want to look into before putting the effort into doing cross-platform game development is your potential customer base. Just because Windows PCs make up 90% of the computer market doesn't mean they'll make up 90% of YOUR market. I've seen sales numbers and conversion rates (number of people who download a free demo vs. number of people who pay for a full version) on a few cross-platform games. Depending on the game genre, the marketing approach, etc... Mac sales can range from 40-70% of the a particular game's sales. Also (from the games I've seen), Macs usually tend to have the highest conversion rate.

I'm not trying to convince you to not do a cross-platform game, cross-platform games are great and I usually try to do Windows builds of my games in addition to Mac builds. Just throwing in a little food for thought.

#16 Thank you Dan, I also heard something similar (average split of casual game sales Windows 50 : MAC 50). It's sure something to consider and this also makes me think about another MAC exclusive game development tool: http://www.sawbladesoftware.com/

I don't know if it's any good, looks a bit like Torque Game Builder but MAC and sidescroller only.

#17 I've played with Power Game Factory too. It's pretty fun, but very limited. It won't give you much freedom to make any kind of game except a character based, side scrolling shooter, but it's a good tool for artists or level designers who don't want to really mess with code and can't find a programmer to help them. If you want to make a variety of games though, I'd still say the split's between TGB or Unity.

One more 2D tool to check out would be NovaShell: http://www.rtsoft.com/novashell/

It's free and available on multiple platforms. The scripting language is based on Lua, which is a popular scripting language for some game mods. I've downloaded it, but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. It's doesn't look nearly as advanced as TGB on the surface, but hey, the price might be right.

#18 Novashell looks good but it doesn't look as advanced as TGB. I think 2D-wise TGB is the best tool one can buy.