TGEA License Question

#1 I'm no expert or "inside man" but I'd venture a guess that the price would be around 50% of the original cost to do updates. It wouldn't make sense to charge full rate to existing customers.

Year starts from when you purchase the engine.

#2 You know what's interesting? That line about update limitations is in the "Dev Snapshot" page, but there's no mention of it in the EULA.

#3 Yea not in the EULA or the product page or FAQ:)

#4 For a 50% reup price each year there would need to be a significant amount of additions each year, not just bug fixes, at least out of my sight (Especially after the rushed out release of TGEA although the atlas2 toolset is not ready nor is TGEA compatible with current DX SDK *I'm not sure if I should trust a legacy support hack unless its clear that the rest of TGEA is not affected by it*) ... and recently the "update rate" seemed to slow down, especially since CVS was disabled which means you have to wait for the next packaged version and have to keep your own "engine CVS" to check for the changes between the versions.

#5 Yeah, this whole "updates only for one year" thing seems like a big step back. I originally bought TGE in 2004, but basically didn't do much with it until 2006. Probably the only reason I went back to it (and eventually bought TGEA) was that I could go and get the latest version right away, without having to renew my license.

I remember I went back to TGE when they announced the 1.4 release and were bragging (in that email) that licenses did not expire and the latest version could always be updated. So, I don't understand this move at all. Its especially distressing for those of us that purchased TGEA in EA mode, under the raft of promises made for its final release then, and we still don't have them now. If those features that were originally promised (Atlas editor for instance) are released after my "update period" has expired, GG would be asking me to purchase something I though I had already purchased. That would not sit well with me.

GG, just my opinion, but you had a good system going with TGE: free updates, with available add-on packs. This "expiry date" thing would be a big step backwards.

#6 I personally agree with Mark Dynna on this...
only reason I bought TSE:EA is for what it said it would have:
-Atlas Editor
-OpenGL (Mac/Linux)

so if this comes out after my one year mark... and have to pay extra for the features that were advertised when I originally purchased it... nuff said.

-[edit]-
Jonathon Stevens brings up a good point that my post didnt address, for features above and beyond what was originally advertised... I have no problem upgrading for that

#7 @Mark - When 1.4 was released, GG stated the exact opposite of what you're saying they stated. They said that 1.4 would be the last free major upgrade to the engine and starting with 1.5, all future ones would have an upgrade fee associated with them.

Paying a small upgrade fee is no sweat considering the quality of what we get. Having said that, I do agree that if we were promised atlas, we should get it free no matter how long it takes to get in.

#8 Although I haven't purchased the 1.5 upgrade, I understood why that particular one required an extra purchase. I didn't realize that now all future updates must be purchased. I thought the 1.5 update required it because it included features (TLK, Show Tool Pro) that were previously only available as an upgrade pack.

Like I said above, I'm expecting the features that were originally promised to be provided free, eventually. In future, I might not have a problem purchasing updates as long as they are significant updates (eg. they add new features), and are affordable, which I consider in the 25%-33% of the engine cost range.

Bug fixes, IMO, should never be purchased, since they come from mistakes originally made by the creators. However, I suppose I can understand that future updates that integrate new features could be purchased. I imagine it makes maintenance much simpler since it cuts down on the number of code bases. So, like I said, as long as the updates are significant and affordable, I suppose I can understand the change.

#9 Hey guys,

We've yet to decide what the upgrade price for TGEA will be, but we are setting expectations that there MAY be one. In the past, we have never promised upgrades for free. In fact, from day one, our EULA has stated that there is no right to upgrades and the engine is sold as is. However, we have always given them... in fact, we have given them for free for years, until TGE 1.5. That was our first product to have an upgrade price, and it is very reasonable. TGB has gotten many, many incredible upgrades for free.

When you purchase one of our engines, you are purchasing what is currently shipping. Though this language is not currently in the EULA (this may change in the future), we expect to provide license holders with free updates and bugfixes for one year. For all of you waiting for OpenGL support, we expect this will make it well under that 1 year mark.

@Mark: Your last post is essentially correct. Major feature additions will not likely be free, but updates will be.
@OP: We'll consider Early Adopters "one year" as beginning on Feb. 15.

We all want an Atlas terrain editor (it's Ben's top priority) within the one year time frame, but we simply can't guarantee this. Atlas is a very large terrain solution for flight sims, RPGs, etc. People asked for it, and we made it. There are methodologies for making Atlas terrains. A terrain editor was not promised, and in fact, our EA product page was extremely short, and full of language that stated the engine was in development and the features would change.

Anything you get beyond that is not promised and never has been. We may or may not provide additional features for free. Our track record shows that we have given many years of development away for free in all of our engines. We now want to make sure that expectations are set that this may not always be the case.

TGEA will get better in the future and we will address upgrades, feature additions, and upgrade pricing in the future. It's impractical to worry about what may or may not happen a year or so from now. TGEA is available now, and many developers are making super games with it.

#10 Thanks for the post Brett, that clears up a lot. I understand you can't guarantee an Atlas editor within one year, but you can guarantee it will be a free update when it does come. But I suppose what you're saying is you can't guarantee it will be free either. If its Ben's top priority, then he's working hard on it, and that's all I need to know.

#11 I think what some people are beating around the bush about is not what has been promised really, but more what has been discussed, thus leading us to believe certain things about what updates are coming. For me when i bought into the TSE, now the TGEA, I bought both engines at the same time. One so i could play and get used to the TGE, and then become proficient at TGEA. What i like about TGEA and the reason I bought it was because you were developing the Atlas terrain, i just assumed we would get atlas completely finished before I had to pay more for update. I realize it wasn't put into black and white that this was GG intention but you can see how we would assume things like this. By all means this post is not meant to put anyone down, or to diminish the hard and beautiful work done by all the employee's at GarageGames, it is just my personal opinion that the major features should be finished, or at-least pretty close. Most of my wants for Atlas have mostly already been addressed, such as multiple ways of texturing, and with some hope of highly detailed textures. And through community fixes, and workarounds it seems like its coming around to meet this, so really I have no complaints, i just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I don't feel that people are truly unhappy with the product we have received, cause lets face it, this engine solution is great especially for the price, we just had things in mind with what we want make, and running into trouble is always a bit depressing, so i think sometime a few of us get a little carried away in our post!! Keep up the good works GG:)

Bobby Leighton