TSE Clean start (rants & raves)
by Petteri Huttunen · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 02/15/2007 (5:41 am) · 25 replies
Hi there !
Brief history first:
I've worked in the games industry for 4 yrs. now
as an 3d Graphics Artist/Level Designer (Bugbear Entertainment LTD), at the time of writing still my day job.
But I started recently my own company for developing games of my own liking :)
Just bought the TSE engine two days ago + the programming book (which ships in 1-2 months)
I've been fiddlin' with the TGE demo version now about a month before making my buying decision.
I though that as I buy this little gem of a software I'll get my hands on information
that was restricted from me before I purchase & register.
But what's this ?
This jigsaw puzzle of "tutorials" and "excellent support" (as stated in the sales babble) which most of them are missing/not written yet/are not current/ are found on someone else's webpages/scattered around the net/some things work like as in TGE some things in TSE,/ no-one seem to see things from an artist view.
I really wasn't expecting a catered table, as I've worked with different engines int the past,
but this is just plain frustrating/silly.
Personally I just LOVE to learn new things,
well, actually let's put it this way :
I think that it's like trying to read the latest Stephing King's novel
but the most important parts of it are missing/or as the author has ment that the readers just GOT TO
figure out those parts themselves, LOL.
OK, there are couple of things that I've already figured out by gathering/hunting data across the web,
I would just like to get the BASIC information, how do I get the
development enviroment running from a clean start (as in the TGE 1.5 demo, without any demos & stuff ).
So, please tell me how get an empty/clean development TSE enviroment (as for creating own levels),
-step
-by
-step ?
I've already extracted the RC_1.zip file to my c: drive, and taken copy of the demo folder
(modified the main.cs to point to the test folder ), but I'd like get rid of those intro/features stuff.
PS. Why's that the TGE 1.5 demo came with the starters guide/manual but the TSE not ?
ps2. After this hassle's over I'm definite that'll write a tutorial for noobs like me to ease
the pain for getting in to the production pipeline. (Torque TSE, Getting Started for Ultra Dummies)
PS3. Thank You in advance !
Brief history first:
I've worked in the games industry for 4 yrs. now
as an 3d Graphics Artist/Level Designer (Bugbear Entertainment LTD), at the time of writing still my day job.
But I started recently my own company for developing games of my own liking :)
Just bought the TSE engine two days ago + the programming book (which ships in 1-2 months)
I've been fiddlin' with the TGE demo version now about a month before making my buying decision.
I though that as I buy this little gem of a software I'll get my hands on information
that was restricted from me before I purchase & register.
But what's this ?
This jigsaw puzzle of "tutorials" and "excellent support" (as stated in the sales babble) which most of them are missing/not written yet/are not current/ are found on someone else's webpages/scattered around the net/some things work like as in TGE some things in TSE,/ no-one seem to see things from an artist view.
I really wasn't expecting a catered table, as I've worked with different engines int the past,
but this is just plain frustrating/silly.
Personally I just LOVE to learn new things,
well, actually let's put it this way :
I think that it's like trying to read the latest Stephing King's novel
but the most important parts of it are missing/or as the author has ment that the readers just GOT TO
figure out those parts themselves, LOL.
OK, there are couple of things that I've already figured out by gathering/hunting data across the web,
I would just like to get the BASIC information, how do I get the
development enviroment running from a clean start (as in the TGE 1.5 demo, without any demos & stuff ).
So, please tell me how get an empty/clean development TSE enviroment (as for creating own levels),
-step
-by
-step ?
I've already extracted the RC_1.zip file to my c: drive, and taken copy of the demo folder
(modified the main.cs to point to the test folder ), but I'd like get rid of those intro/features stuff.
PS. Why's that the TGE 1.5 demo came with the starters guide/manual but the TSE not ?
ps2. After this hassle's over I'm definite that'll write a tutorial for noobs like me to ease
the pain for getting in to the production pipeline. (Torque TSE, Getting Started for Ultra Dummies)
PS3. Thank You in advance !
#2
As for a clean start, remove the existing mods and then add your own and start scripting from there. That's as clean as you can get.
02/15/2007 (6:10 am)
Indeed.As for a clean start, remove the existing mods and then add your own and start scripting from there. That's as clean as you can get.
#3
-Manoel
"TSE isn't really in a state where non-programmers (of the advanced or TGE-experienced variety) can just use it without any aid. "
And that's why I'm asking for aid from you Guru Guys.
And as far as I'm concerned, there isn't anywhere to be seen at the Garage Games site an advert that says:
"For Advanced Programmers Only, If Not Applicable, Don't Buy This" :)
Why do things have to be done by the hard way ?
If I'd be in the situation like You and You'd be asking for advice, I'd be more than willing to share it with you.
Isn't that what the Forums are for, especially the TGE GETTING STARTED forum ?
Stefan, thank You much more constructive advice.
But by meaning "mods" you mean the demo folders eg. /example/demo etc,
and then build the GUI etc. from ground up ?
PS.
I do code in Java, Shockwave3D Lingo, HLSL,
(Torque Script from an INTENSE 1 months experience period LOL),
but since we don't have to implement any new features to the engine at the source level, I have an C++ programmer (from the game industry also) for that task.
02/15/2007 (7:12 am)
Thank you for Your answers.-Manoel
"TSE isn't really in a state where non-programmers (of the advanced or TGE-experienced variety) can just use it without any aid. "
And that's why I'm asking for aid from you Guru Guys.
And as far as I'm concerned, there isn't anywhere to be seen at the Garage Games site an advert that says:
"For Advanced Programmers Only, If Not Applicable, Don't Buy This" :)
Why do things have to be done by the hard way ?
If I'd be in the situation like You and You'd be asking for advice, I'd be more than willing to share it with you.
Isn't that what the Forums are for, especially the TGE GETTING STARTED forum ?
Stefan, thank You much more constructive advice.
But by meaning "mods" you mean the demo folders eg. /example/demo etc,
and then build the GUI etc. from ground up ?
PS.
I do code in Java, Shockwave3D Lingo, HLSL,
(Torque Script from an INTENSE 1 months experience period LOL),
but since we don't have to implement any new features to the engine at the source level, I have an C++ programmer (from the game industry also) for that task.
#4
I've been digging into the engine for over a year now and I can share some insight if you care to come over to discuss it to the next IGDA meeting in Helsinki (20th February if I remember correctly).
Ps. pist
02/15/2007 (7:13 am)
Hi Petteri!I've been digging into the engine for over a year now and I can share some insight if you care to come over to discuss it to the next IGDA meeting in Helsinki (20th February if I remember correctly).
Ps. pist
#5
The name TGEA hints at the fact that the engine is advanced level. I am not sure what you are going on about the forums, have you even tried to post a question? You usually get an answer within 12 hours and sometimes in a few minutes.
The problem is that making games isn't something easy. And you can't purchase a new engine and expect to get productive before you have learned how it works. In my case that took well over 2 years, in your case it might be shorter or longer.
02/15/2007 (7:32 am)
Yeah, starter.fps and demo are two mods. That's what I would do (and did).The name TGEA hints at the fact that the engine is advanced level. I am not sure what you are going on about the forums, have you even tried to post a question? You usually get an answer within 12 hours and sometimes in a few minutes.
The problem is that making games isn't something easy. And you can't purchase a new engine and expect to get productive before you have learned how it works. In my case that took well over 2 years, in your case it might be shorter or longer.
#6
Also, you mentioned an "artists' perspective" so I think you should also look into "3D Game Programming All in One". Although the book is titled "programming" its a much more balanced book, giving equal weight to programming topics and art topics. Now, I didn't completely read the chapters (they didn't apply to me) but it looked like it did a good job showing how art assets should be created and integrated into Torque.
02/15/2007 (7:57 am)
Petteri, I felt the same way as you for awhile. What finally got me going was that book you orderd: "Game Programmer's Guide to Torque." (I'm assuming that's what you ordered). Although its written for TGE, nearly everything works for TSE as well. In my opinion, that whole book is what the online documentation should be. Until then, I'd call the book an "essential resource" for anyone starting out with Torque.Also, you mentioned an "artists' perspective" so I think you should also look into "3D Game Programming All in One". Although the book is titled "programming" its a much more balanced book, giving equal weight to programming topics and art topics. Now, I didn't completely read the chapters (they didn't apply to me) but it looked like it did a good job showing how art assets should be created and integrated into Torque.
#7
Yes you are quite right.
What I meant about the forum thing is that I asked a question (check the first post ),
and all I basicly got back was that I should stay away from the engine until I'm fluent with programming.
So does that fullfill the definition of an constructive forum answer ?
I have the dev enviroment setup up and running already (forgot to mention above) ,Visual Basic Studio, directx SDK & stuff ( there's got to be like 3 three different versions of this subject, and that was easy ?)
I've done my own custom scripts, rigged/exported my custom character/animations in to the demo game,
build a couple of levels with my old pal QuArk (Until the Mighty Constructor cometh).
Now the only (basic) thing that I haven't figured out (due to the lack of decent documentation (and perhaps without the Programmer's Guide to Torque) is as I asked before,
is to make a fresh clean setup step by step.
Anyways, just for comparison I used to have a lot's of noob/stupid questions back at Macromedia Shockwave dev forums (for 4-5 yrs), and in 99% cases I got the answers I was looking for.
(wahey for them, especially for Karl Sigiscar)
So what makes this so different ?
But one thing is sure, developing in Shockwave3d enviroment compared to TSE, the latter is DEFINATELY advanced.
Got my point ?
So it seems that I should just wait now and sit thump up me arse until this book's delivered until I can do a darn thing ?
02/15/2007 (10:40 am)
Stefan:Yes you are quite right.
What I meant about the forum thing is that I asked a question (check the first post ),
and all I basicly got back was that I should stay away from the engine until I'm fluent with programming.
So does that fullfill the definition of an constructive forum answer ?
I have the dev enviroment setup up and running already (forgot to mention above) ,Visual Basic Studio, directx SDK & stuff ( there's got to be like 3 three different versions of this subject, and that was easy ?)
I've done my own custom scripts, rigged/exported my custom character/animations in to the demo game,
build a couple of levels with my old pal QuArk (Until the Mighty Constructor cometh).
Now the only (basic) thing that I haven't figured out (due to the lack of decent documentation (and perhaps without the Programmer's Guide to Torque) is as I asked before,
is to make a fresh clean setup step by step.
Anyways, just for comparison I used to have a lot's of noob/stupid questions back at Macromedia Shockwave dev forums (for 4-5 yrs), and in 99% cases I got the answers I was looking for.
(wahey for them, especially for Karl Sigiscar)
So what makes this so different ?
But one thing is sure, developing in Shockwave3d enviroment compared to TSE, the latter is DEFINATELY advanced.
Got my point ?
So it seems that I should just wait now and sit thump up me arse until this book's delivered until I can do a darn thing ?
#8
Use the "terrain_water_demo" folder as your "clean base." That folder is generally considered the starting point, or "plain vanilla" example of getting a level up and running with TSE. Make a copy of that folder, and start your modifications from there. The "demo" folder has too much "special stuff" in it. Is that what you are asking?
If you would like a more advanced starting point, try the starter.fps mod outlined here.
02/15/2007 (12:05 pm)
Oh oh! I finally think I get what you're asking.Use the "terrain_water_demo" folder as your "clean base." That folder is generally considered the starting point, or "plain vanilla" example of getting a level up and running with TSE. Make a copy of that folder, and start your modifications from there. The "demo" folder has too much "special stuff" in it. Is that what you are asking?
If you would like a more advanced starting point, try the starter.fps mod outlined here.
#9
Honestly it depends on who is asking the question and how. Ranting sure does not make me answer faster :) You'll realize this community is one of the best and people are happy to help out with questions they know the answers for.
I'll look for your thread.
Edit: I could not find any more threads under your name than this one. If you need help with anything specific or someone to ball questions with, then send me an email and I'll help you out.
02/15/2007 (12:46 pm)
Petteri,Honestly it depends on who is asking the question and how. Ranting sure does not make me answer faster :) You'll realize this community is one of the best and people are happy to help out with questions they know the answers for.
I'll look for your thread.
Edit: I could not find any more threads under your name than this one. If you need help with anything specific or someone to ball questions with, then send me an email and I'll help you out.
#10
But you're not exactly correct... the dev snapshot announcing the impending release found here states:
For TGEA, the Getting Started manual can be found here, but it assumes you're already an advanced TGE user. For the TGE getting started manual, check this out.
Some of the TGE documentation might be a little out of date simple because it's not a Wiki, but a great, up-to-date starting point for TGE can be found here.
Hope that helps.
02/15/2007 (1:07 pm)
@Petteri - You stated:Quote:
And as far as I'm concerned, there isn't anywhere to be seen at the Garage Games site an advert that says:
"For Advanced Programmers Only, If Not Applicable, Don't Buy This" :)
But you're not exactly correct... the dev snapshot announcing the impending release found here states:
Quote:
Because TGEA is an advanced engine for advanced users, the vast majority of development time has been spent on improving the engines capabilities for veteran programmers and Torque users. This means docs are geared towards experienced users -- there is very little starter content included with TGEA. Those new to Torque are encouraged to start with TGB or TGE.
For TGEA, the Getting Started manual can be found here, but it assumes you're already an advanced TGE user. For the TGE getting started manual, check this out.
Some of the TGE documentation might be a little out of date simple because it's not a Wiki, but a great, up-to-date starting point for TGE can be found here.
Hope that helps.
#11
I've always browsed through the developer and shoppers/features sections.
Never bumped to the news section.
This isn't happening......
Anyway, It's bought now and I'll definately live with it. :)
But the questions I'm after apply for the both versions still.
Thanks guys :)
Now I got to get some sleep.
02/15/2007 (1:20 pm)
LOL, I've actually never checked the NEWS section. I've always browsed through the developer and shoppers/features sections.
Never bumped to the news section.
This isn't happening......
Anyway, It's bought now and I'll definately live with it. :)
But the questions I'm after apply for the both versions still.
Thanks guys :)
Now I got to get some sleep.
#12
Comparing TGB to TGEA is a bad joke when it comes to documentation and the like.
TGB has far more professional docs then what I've seen in TGEA so far.
I would even go that far and say that TGB has more content on TDN than TGE + TGEA together ...
And resources are a little split thing, as the current resource system is just broken. TGE 1.5 owners can't access 1.4.2 resources, TGEA owner can't access anything beside the few TGEA resources and that what is present on TDN which is what is shared with TGE more or less.
02/15/2007 (5:03 pm)
That quote from above is a little missleading.Comparing TGB to TGEA is a bad joke when it comes to documentation and the like.
TGB has far more professional docs then what I've seen in TGEA so far.
I would even go that far and say that TGB has more content on TDN than TGE + TGEA together ...
And resources are a little split thing, as the current resource system is just broken. TGE 1.5 owners can't access 1.4.2 resources, TGEA owner can't access anything beside the few TGEA resources and that what is present on TDN which is what is shared with TGE more or less.
#13
I really dont want to litter the forum with stupid low level crap, so all im stuck with at the moment is trying to find and figure things out for myself which takes well much longer than it should.
02/15/2007 (8:01 pm)
I just bought TGEA and am brand new into the torque realm, i try to look up documentation on ProjectileData and cant access it, im not really impressed at this point in time. I really dont want to litter the forum with stupid low level crap, so all im stuck with at the moment is trying to find and figure things out for myself which takes well much longer than it should.
#15
02/15/2007 (10:35 pm)
Yeah i had but i didnt find anything, but i did just then thanks :)
#16
Don't just use the Search feature of the website and/or TDN... make sure you drill down through the resources and through TDN and see if you can find it that way. Everything is really fairly well organized and when you're new you might not know the correct keywords to use for searching.
02/16/2007 (1:52 pm)
Although people complain about the lack of documentation, I think they should really complain about the huge volumes of documentation.Don't just use the Search feature of the website and/or TDN... make sure you drill down through the resources and through TDN and see if you can find it that way. Everything is really fairly well organized and when you're new you might not know the correct keywords to use for searching.
#17
02/16/2007 (2:53 pm)
Quote:when you're new you might not know the correct keywords to use for searching.I think that's the problem. GG really needs a nice, unified, Start Here page.
#18
Been through a gazillion tutorials and feeling MUCH better now.
Just one question,
what I'm doing wrong;
This is how I'm doing it now:
1. I'll make a copy of the TGEA advanced conversion of starter.fps (provided by some excellent bloke:))
2. I'll rename it like TestMod
3. In the main.cs I change the starting enviroment as TestMod
4. After thet I'll start the of the missions (for example the lighttest.mis in the TestMoD
5. F11 and start a new mission
6. Save it like blank.mis
7. Exit the app
8. I'll just delete the all other missions for keeping it nice & tidy :)
9. Start the app again, and do the things I'll do like painting terrain etc, creating a custom character.
10. Save it again like for example modified.mis
Here comes the weird part: After a reboot as I try to open my mission again it crashes the TGA.
I won't be NEVER again able to open it (even removing the TGEA, and making a fresh install .
And in other occasions I won't be able to open even the blank.mis.
WTF ?
02/17/2007 (4:13 am)
Hi again !Been through a gazillion tutorials and feeling MUCH better now.
Just one question,
what I'm doing wrong;
This is how I'm doing it now:
1. I'll make a copy of the TGEA advanced conversion of starter.fps (provided by some excellent bloke:))
2. I'll rename it like TestMod
3. In the main.cs I change the starting enviroment as TestMod
4. After thet I'll start the of the missions (for example the lighttest.mis in the TestMoD
5. F11 and start a new mission
6. Save it like blank.mis
7. Exit the app
8. I'll just delete the all other missions for keeping it nice & tidy :)
9. Start the app again, and do the things I'll do like painting terrain etc, creating a custom character.
10. Save it again like for example modified.mis
Here comes the weird part: After a reboot as I try to open my mission again it crashes the TGA.
I won't be NEVER again able to open it (even removing the TGEA, and making a fresh install .
And in other occasions I won't be able to open even the blank.mis.
WTF ?
#19
It does seem like your problem is the newly created mission, though. I have no good answer for you though, sorry.
Edit: Though though though, bah.
02/17/2007 (4:50 am)
There are hardcoded paths in there Petteri. Changing main.cs is a good start, but for instance, GeoMap terrains have clumsy hardcoded paths which includes the mod folder. It's not the only place either.It does seem like your problem is the newly created mission, though. I have no good answer for you though, sorry.
Edit: Though though though, bah.
#20
They have one for each product... my earlier post game them, but maybe people don't use the web site or something.
At the top of this web site, there's a Developer item on the menu.... click on that, then click on the product that you want documentation... voila, the official Start Here page.
02/19/2007 (10:13 pm)
Quote:
I think that's the problem. GG really needs a nice, unified, Start Here page.
They have one for each product... my earlier post game them, but maybe people don't use the web site or something.
At the top of this web site, there's a Developer item on the menu.... click on that, then click on the product that you want documentation... voila, the official Start Here page.
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