Something to keep in mind when posting jobs
by Neo Binedell · in Jobs · 02/07/2007 (7:39 am) · 7 replies
Read through this first: www.no-spec.com/
#2
That said however, I see a lot of job postings requiring specific qualifications, experience, etc, in short, a professional, for working on a large project over a longer period of time but they want it for free or with vague promises of future remuneration or credits or whatever. THAT is "Spec-Work".
The tone of my post was to provide an example to job posters of what to avoid in order to attract the people you want.
As for any indie just starting out, only they can decide and being informed can only help.
02/07/2007 (12:56 pm)
As I said: something to keep in mind - not something to insist on.That said however, I see a lot of job postings requiring specific qualifications, experience, etc, in short, a professional, for working on a large project over a longer period of time but they want it for free or with vague promises of future remuneration or credits or whatever. THAT is "Spec-Work".
The tone of my post was to provide an example to job posters of what to avoid in order to attract the people you want.
As for any indie just starting out, only they can decide and being informed can only help.
#3
One should have some type of contract before starting any work- free or paid, its the only way to define property rights on the work being done.
I always find it funny when a no-name startup company starts demanding things like 'professional portfolio' with 'X years of experiences', and my personal favorite is when they can not discuss the project unless you sign a NDA. Of course one can not take seriously ANYONE that do not have some past work to show off.
02/07/2007 (1:45 pm)
I agree, free work is just that- working for free. One should have some type of contract before starting any work- free or paid, its the only way to define property rights on the work being done.
I always find it funny when a no-name startup company starts demanding things like 'professional portfolio' with 'X years of experiences', and my personal favorite is when they can not discuss the project unless you sign a NDA. Of course one can not take seriously ANYONE that do not have some past work to show off.
#4
That's a good link. There are a lot of people that post asking for contractors here that would do well to read it and take on board what it says.
@Caylo,
That's because it is bad. For a lot of us in this community, contracting is our day job. Making games takes a lot of time, whether you are an artist or a programmer, and during the time that we still have to eat.
What this comes down to is simply that contracts need to be fair to both sides. "I'll pay you when you're done" is just as bad as "Pay me everything in advance." Any contract that is not fair to both sides is just going to end up with one side getting ripped off.
The bottom line is, for the professional contractors there is so much work out there that we can and do turn down bad gigs like those mentioned here. Thus, if you are someone who is looking for a contractor to help make your game, if your offer is not a fair one then the only contractor you are likely to get is an inexperienced one that is not neccessarily going to be able to handle the job.
T.
02/07/2007 (6:24 pm)
@Neo,That's a good link. There are a lot of people that post asking for contractors here that would do well to read it and take on board what it says.
@Caylo,
Quote:That 'no-spec' webpage wants people to think this is a bad idea.
That's because it is bad. For a lot of us in this community, contracting is our day job. Making games takes a lot of time, whether you are an artist or a programmer, and during the time that we still have to eat.
What this comes down to is simply that contracts need to be fair to both sides. "I'll pay you when you're done" is just as bad as "Pay me everything in advance." Any contract that is not fair to both sides is just going to end up with one side getting ripped off.
The bottom line is, for the professional contractors there is so much work out there that we can and do turn down bad gigs like those mentioned here. Thus, if you are someone who is looking for a contractor to help make your game, if your offer is not a fair one then the only contractor you are likely to get is an inexperienced one that is not neccessarily going to be able to handle the job.
T.
#5
I would agree that for experience, it is not a bad idea to do this kind of work but as someone who has to eat and keep a roof over my head, I would never take such a job.
02/08/2007 (5:10 am)
Good link Neo, this is a problem here, it is a problem at just about any Job posting forum like gamedev.net and cgtalk.com as well. Just looking at this forum here, I would say at least 75% of the jobs are like this.I would agree that for experience, it is not a bad idea to do this kind of work but as someone who has to eat and keep a roof over my head, I would never take such a job.
#6
I just did a quick google for more information on what 'Spec Work' really is, to make sure we are actually talking about the same thing. Turns out that there are many different ways to understand it. I always understood it to be; Taking a contract to be paid when the work is handed over, nothing wrong with this. Lots of creative work is done this way, (not just programing/ game art content design, but writing photography, almost everything free-lance) and back when i started this was considered 'Spec Work' (15 years ago)- that is the definition of 'Spec Work' that i was defending.
But as i am reading 'Spec Work', have morphed into some type of; Do the work, and we MIGHT buy it. AND the ever popular one (that i never even consider a entry point into professional development, but a ultra small time team system,) is the Work NOW, pay once the project sells BIG TIME!!!.
Again it stress the fact that no matter WHAT you are doing and WHO you are working for, make sure to have some type of contractual agreement, even for something as simple as a bunch of buddy's working on a game together.
As Tom was saying, once you have built up a name for yourself, one can start being picky. But if your an unknown with no real experiences to show off, dont expect to get cash up fount, and dont expect to make industrial standard wages for your work.
02/08/2007 (11:06 am)
Ah, see, i guess i muddled my point Tom. I just did a quick google for more information on what 'Spec Work' really is, to make sure we are actually talking about the same thing. Turns out that there are many different ways to understand it. I always understood it to be; Taking a contract to be paid when the work is handed over, nothing wrong with this. Lots of creative work is done this way, (not just programing/ game art content design, but writing photography, almost everything free-lance) and back when i started this was considered 'Spec Work' (15 years ago)- that is the definition of 'Spec Work' that i was defending.
But as i am reading 'Spec Work', have morphed into some type of; Do the work, and we MIGHT buy it. AND the ever popular one (that i never even consider a entry point into professional development, but a ultra small time team system,) is the Work NOW, pay once the project sells BIG TIME!!!.
Again it stress the fact that no matter WHAT you are doing and WHO you are working for, make sure to have some type of contractual agreement, even for something as simple as a bunch of buddy's working on a game together.
As Tom was saying, once you have built up a name for yourself, one can start being picky. But if your an unknown with no real experiences to show off, dont expect to get cash up fount, and dont expect to make industrial standard wages for your work.
#7
This is also why I explain my point to the people that applicate to my postings what we can offer and what we can't leaving the decision to the applicants if they wanna contribute in our projects or not.
I say US because I don't want my teammates to do something for me, I want them to do something for US as a team. So we can improve as a team and reach our goals together, having fun doing so in the process and gain more experience on what we do and what is fun for us.
Long story short, there are "black sheeps" on both sides of the river and to run a free project is hard as hell due to many people that are joining to gain experience and let you down afterwards (even you are advanced into a prototype or demo status) or to just gain infos for their own projects and let you down afterwards.
On the other side you have the people that are stated on your postings above that are only trying to get "what the need" by using your talents for their purposes with wrong/fake "promises".
So I would say no matter on what side you are, you always need to be carefull and if its possible to make a contract do it even if its a contribution or work for hire one. If not, make sure you can depend on the person you are or gonna be working with as much as possible (even its hard, its doable).
02/13/2007 (6:24 am)
Well I read some of the stuff there and it made me think of the past when I got promised and offered "big things" I actually already knew they will never occur. -.-This is also why I explain my point to the people that applicate to my postings what we can offer and what we can't leaving the decision to the applicants if they wanna contribute in our projects or not.
I say US because I don't want my teammates to do something for me, I want them to do something for US as a team. So we can improve as a team and reach our goals together, having fun doing so in the process and gain more experience on what we do and what is fun for us.
Long story short, there are "black sheeps" on both sides of the river and to run a free project is hard as hell due to many people that are joining to gain experience and let you down afterwards (even you are advanced into a prototype or demo status) or to just gain infos for their own projects and let you down afterwards.
On the other side you have the people that are stated on your postings above that are only trying to get "what the need" by using your talents for their purposes with wrong/fake "promises".
So I would say no matter on what side you are, you always need to be carefull and if its possible to make a contract do it even if its a contribution or work for hire one. If not, make sure you can depend on the person you are or gonna be working with as much as possible (even its hard, its doable).
Torque 3D Owner Caylo Gypsyblood
That 'no-spec' webpage wants people to think this is a bad idea.
But unless your already fully "IN The Bizz", if you refuse Spec Work, you will NEVER get any work.
Spec Work is the only way for most people to get noticed by more professional peers, kinda like "Street Cred". One will never be offered a 'great' game creation job right off the bat. Even most of the students that think going to some game making collage will land them a dream job, are not going to find the positions they wish for, not without some background work- what is usually done as Spec Work.