Which of the two is the better engine??
by Mquaker · in General Discussion · 12/11/2006 (11:57 pm) · 20 replies
Difference TGE 1.5 and TSE 1.42 ??
Which of the two is the better engine??
Which of the two is the better engine??
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#3
The choice is really based on your target machine - if you're going to for the High end or "Next Gen" market, TSE (TGEA) is your best bet.
If you're new to game dev. - I'd start off with TGE 1.5 (bugs included) or even go 2D and start with TGB.
Good luck :)
12/12/2006 (6:53 am)
TSE is the Next Gen version of Torque using shaders and a new terrain block called Atlas.The choice is really based on your target machine - if you're going to for the High end or "Next Gen" market, TSE (TGEA) is your best bet.
If you're new to game dev. - I'd start off with TGE 1.5 (bugs included) or even go 2D and start with TGB.
Good luck :)
#4
Do you mean TGE 1.5 and TGE 1.42 or TGE 1.5 and TSE (now TGEA)?
TGE 1.5 is superior to 1.42 because it has ligting, ShowTool, content and other extras. I can't vouch for how many bugs there are or aren't between the two.
TGEA I know even less about (I only own TGE 1.42 and TGB), but from what I can see, it's a prettier (currently slighty more difficult/intense) version of TGE 1.42/1.5 with shaders, better terrain and other bits and pieces (No sense if you can't work TGE or/and aren't investing to save on the eventual price increase).
Like Mike said check out the demos. Also read the features for each product page. TGB is the easiest of the bunch and is a good primer for possibly future TGE/TGEA work (but its primarily a 2D engine with basic 3D object support).
12/12/2006 (7:00 am)
EDIT: Heh, James beat me too it :)Do you mean TGE 1.5 and TGE 1.42 or TGE 1.5 and TSE (now TGEA)?
TGE 1.5 is superior to 1.42 because it has ligting, ShowTool, content and other extras. I can't vouch for how many bugs there are or aren't between the two.
TGEA I know even less about (I only own TGE 1.42 and TGB), but from what I can see, it's a prettier (currently slighty more difficult/intense) version of TGE 1.42/1.5 with shaders, better terrain and other bits and pieces (No sense if you can't work TGE or/and aren't investing to save on the eventual price increase).
Like Mike said check out the demos. Also read the features for each product page. TGB is the easiest of the bunch and is a good primer for possibly future TGE/TGEA work (but its primarily a 2D engine with basic 3D object support).
#5
TGE is much better than TSE, regardless of your target platform.
TGE is a pretty good engine, it's got a few bugs and it's using some old technology, but it's definetely usable and you could probably make a decent game with it.
TSE is not ready yet, if/when it is ready it could be a good engine, or maybe not. As of now, I have no reason to believe it will be a good engine.
12/12/2006 (7:57 am)
Since you're asking, I am now trying to express my opinions, hoping that I won't be flamed.TGE is much better than TSE, regardless of your target platform.
TGE is a pretty good engine, it's got a few bugs and it's using some old technology, but it's definetely usable and you could probably make a decent game with it.
TSE is not ready yet, if/when it is ready it could be a good engine, or maybe not. As of now, I have no reason to believe it will be a good engine.
#6
12/12/2006 (8:27 am)
What makes TSE more unusable than TGE Hadoken? are some of the features broken?
#7
I'd like to know as well, as based on sheer number and class of AAA commercial studios now using TSE actively for development, as well as the games and products (military/commercial training, simulation) already in existence that use TSE, it's proven itself as a very good engine in the hands of those capable of using it to it's fullest extent.
12/12/2006 (8:42 am)
Quote:TSE is not ready yet, if/when it is ready it could be a good engine, or maybe not. As of now, I have no reason to believe it will be a good engine.
I'd like to know as well, as based on sheer number and class of AAA commercial studios now using TSE actively for development, as well as the games and products (military/commercial training, simulation) already in existence that use TSE, it's proven itself as a very good engine in the hands of those capable of using it to it's fullest extent.
#8
If you have good experience in 3d art, need really huge terrains or are comfortable in the Torque dev environment I'd recommend TSE, otherwise if you've never laid a finger on Torque in your life 1.5 is quite an extensible option for building a less shiny game with a standard heightmap terrain system, and a less technical art side.
12/12/2006 (1:47 pm)
TSE is the better as in More Technically Awesome, though the MS4.1 released was a bit borked (Umm... Quite borked... Non-Compiling in fact...), but MS4.0 works fine, savour a few trivial bug fixes it's as stable as 1.5, and looks alot more shiny :PIf you have good experience in 3d art, need really huge terrains or are comfortable in the Torque dev environment I'd recommend TSE, otherwise if you've never laid a finger on Torque in your life 1.5 is quite an extensible option for building a less shiny game with a standard heightmap terrain system, and a less technical art side.
#9
TSE (in it's current state) is for more advanced hands then TGE as far as I understand it, hence it's still in EA. If it makes even half the transition that TGB EA made to v1.0 (with gg's reputation) it well be a very good investment and well worth the wait, trust me! TGB has turned out to be just that.
12/12/2006 (3:10 pm)
Quote:if you've never laid a finger on Torque in your life...and your not desperate for the extra dimension (z) and somewhat inexperienced with Torquescript, then again I recommend TGB to start with as a primer.
TSE (in it's current state) is for more advanced hands then TGE as far as I understand it, hence it's still in EA. If it makes even half the transition that TGB EA made to v1.0 (with gg's reputation) it well be a very good investment and well worth the wait, trust me! TGB has turned out to be just that.
#10
If you just look at what it is possible to achieve with an engine, regardless of the effort you need to achieve it, then probably Microsoft C++ is the best game engine ever, especially with inline assembly ;)
If TSE had 1/10 of the bugs it's got now, a terrain editor, if it was 10x faster, had proper dynamic lighting and cleaner, solid source code, then it'd be a great engine. Right now, I still think it isn't.
I'm happy to see that some people still believe anything can happen before it reaches 1.0, although I am a bit skeptical about that.
12/13/2006 (2:25 am)
I said that TSE is less usable than TGE because it's true that it can potentially be used to do something better compared to TGE, but that's not what you should look for in a game engine. I think a reasonable parameter to decide whether an engine is good or not, may be the ratio (resulting game quality) / (effort needed to make a decent, solid game). Based on that, TGE beats TSE in my opinion.If you just look at what it is possible to achieve with an engine, regardless of the effort you need to achieve it, then probably Microsoft C++ is the best game engine ever, especially with inline assembly ;)
If TSE had 1/10 of the bugs it's got now, a terrain editor, if it was 10x faster, had proper dynamic lighting and cleaner, solid source code, then it'd be a great engine. Right now, I still think it isn't.
I'm happy to see that some people still believe anything can happen before it reaches 1.0, although I am a bit skeptical about that.
#11
The major reason we licensed TGE two years ago our startup company was looking for an engine was full access to the source code and the site's resource section. We knew no engine would feature all the stuff we wanted to use for future projects, so having it entirely modifiable was a huge point. In that aspect, I find TSE is much more flexible than TGE since it is much easier to do changes to the render code on it.
We were able to code our own lighting system with self-shadowing in MS3.5 in 3 weeks, since we needed it for a prototype, and add render target support for custom materials to make subsurface scattering effects, without creating a total mess in the code, and it was easy to replace our changes by the MS4 lighting system when it came out. TSE also looks much more portable to other platforms (like Wii and PS3, maybe even PS2) than TGE, since the whole graphics API is abstracted.
But I can't speak for everyone because we're not indies. I have the luxury of being able to work 8~10 hours a day on TSE/TGE - not everyone can put so much time on a hobby project.
I at least hope they complete Atlas2. It has lots of potential.
12/13/2006 (10:11 am)
If you have enough TGE experience, doesn't depend too much on the terrain (which is still incomplete), and is willing to modify the engine TSE is usable. We already deployed a kiosk project using it (MS4), and are going to use it for a bigger project starting in 2007.The major reason we licensed TGE two years ago our startup company was looking for an engine was full access to the source code and the site's resource section. We knew no engine would feature all the stuff we wanted to use for future projects, so having it entirely modifiable was a huge point. In that aspect, I find TSE is much more flexible than TGE since it is much easier to do changes to the render code on it.
We were able to code our own lighting system with self-shadowing in MS3.5 in 3 weeks, since we needed it for a prototype, and add render target support for custom materials to make subsurface scattering effects, without creating a total mess in the code, and it was easy to replace our changes by the MS4 lighting system when it came out. TSE also looks much more portable to other platforms (like Wii and PS3, maybe even PS2) than TGE, since the whole graphics API is abstracted.
But I can't speak for everyone because we're not indies. I have the luxury of being able to work 8~10 hours a day on TSE/TGE - not everyone can put so much time on a hobby project.
I at least hope they complete Atlas2. It has lots of potential.
#12
There were lots bugs and errors on the game that developed with TGE 1.4 version
So replaced to TSE 1.42 version, but lots problems still happened.
For example
in importing terrain to atlas - the vertex color change of portal , black surface, shading error, etc..
In addition there were not various script codes. So recently it's somewhat difficult to develop this game.
Anyway now I was worrying about them (TGE 1.5 ver VS TSE 1.42)
12/14/2006 (4:36 am)
I guess that TSE is better than TGE through various opinions.There were lots bugs and errors on the game that developed with TGE 1.4 version
So replaced to TSE 1.42 version, but lots problems still happened.
For example
in importing terrain to atlas - the vertex color change of portal , black surface, shading error, etc..
In addition there were not various script codes. So recently it's somewhat difficult to develop this game.
Anyway now I was worrying about them (TGE 1.5 ver VS TSE 1.42)
#13
I'll admit it, flat out[no POSER here, boyz; that's not my style]: I am not a AAA hand at gameCoding, yet this fact does not diminish my endeavors[or lessen my IQ score at all] or I feel "puts me in a lower place" for asking questions or making comments. I still help others less knowledgeable...I still purchase the products...if you really only want to hear from AAA hands who are 'capable'...put up a benchmark test before licenses are granted.....it's that simple. Your retort is slightly condescending.
Cheers.
12/14/2006 (8:59 am)
@Stephen: While it is true that in AAA hands, these products are capable of quite a lot; however, by the sheer number of Threads and Comments at this site, the majority of endUsers[it would seem] are NOT AAA hands and it is these individuals who are comprising the majority of Threads dealing with the engine...here. These AAA Posts are few and far between, duh; they're AAA hands, they shouldn't NEED to post here seeking answers, LOL..... Remember: you're running a company via the Internet to the whole world of less than AAA hands. It would seem folly to expect AAA-onlys to arrive......would it not? And that may not keep a company of 30+ workers employed full time, year after year.I'll admit it, flat out[no POSER here, boyz; that's not my style]: I am not a AAA hand at gameCoding, yet this fact does not diminish my endeavors[or lessen my IQ score at all] or I feel "puts me in a lower place" for asking questions or making comments. I still help others less knowledgeable...I still purchase the products...if you really only want to hear from AAA hands who are 'capable'...put up a benchmark test before licenses are granted.....it's that simple. Your retort is slightly condescending.
Cheers.
#14
It's overanalyzation.
Please no one should fight over it here. The 2 products DO NOT compete. They are complementary focused products. One has a path of working with accelerated hardware, programmable GPU's. The other is of course the mothership that is designed for maximum compatiblity.
Now if you had 2 top of the line PC's say running SLI, 4 gig's of ram, fast 10,000 RPM disk and you coded each engine to it's max TGEA would smoke TGE like a cheap cigar. TGE would be like when the excelsior was sent after Kirk and it's trans warp engine would not even start (it can't even run a shader.. and no extending it does not count for those that want to get technical).
12/14/2006 (4:37 pm)
They should not be compared like this in a "which is better". As they are 2 different tools.It's overanalyzation.
Please no one should fight over it here. The 2 products DO NOT compete. They are complementary focused products. One has a path of working with accelerated hardware, programmable GPU's. The other is of course the mothership that is designed for maximum compatiblity.
Now if you had 2 top of the line PC's say running SLI, 4 gig's of ram, fast 10,000 RPM disk and you coded each engine to it's max TGEA would smoke TGE like a cheap cigar. TGE would be like when the excelsior was sent after Kirk and it's trans warp engine would not even start (it can't even run a shader.. and no extending it does not count for those that want to get technical).
#16
The whole point of GG tech was to enable Indie developers to get a game out there and most of your customers are individual developers not even teams. For the no AAA studios TSE will only be a realistic option when TSE is finished and rounded up with a great art pipeline, working editors etc...
The people who bought the EA license of TSE finincing further development and hoping to get a useful engine a few years ago are the ones still waiting for it to be finished. I guess it is convinient to forget the roots now that you have a few AAA studios to shout about.
I think I'm being fair.
12/15/2006 (3:46 am)
It doesn't matter how much a AAA studio gets out of TSE. A 'AAA' studio can take any engine and work with it, fix it, add to it etc...The whole point of GG tech was to enable Indie developers to get a game out there and most of your customers are individual developers not even teams. For the no AAA studios TSE will only be a realistic option when TSE is finished and rounded up with a great art pipeline, working editors etc...
The people who bought the EA license of TSE finincing further development and hoping to get a useful engine a few years ago are the ones still waiting for it to be finished. I guess it is convinient to forget the roots now that you have a few AAA studios to shout about.
I think I'm being fair.
#17
I hope you guys get whatever it is you think is overdue regarding TGEA.
12/15/2006 (4:15 am)
Wow, wherever there's talk about TSE (TGEA), controversy and bad feeling never seem to be too far behind...I hope you guys get whatever it is you think is overdue regarding TGEA.
#18
ˇ
>Atlas2 Tools<
^
I command thee Garage Gamethuous! Go thereforth! Bring me my supper of toolful delight for evolving my craftsmanship of ether worldly inhabitation! I Besiege Thee! Atlas2 Tools! Thou Shalst nath retire thy work withholding such ingenuous contraptions!
*Cough*
I mean... Atlas2 tools... would be nice... hehe...
EDIT - Forums don't support use of those dang pesky arrowheads!
12/15/2006 (4:25 am)
I hope I get Atlas2 Tools too...ˇ
>Atlas2 Tools<
^
I command thee Garage Gamethuous! Go thereforth! Bring me my supper of toolful delight for evolving my craftsmanship of ether worldly inhabitation! I Besiege Thee! Atlas2 Tools! Thou Shalst nath retire thy work withholding such ingenuous contraptions!
*Cough*
I mean... Atlas2 tools... would be nice... hehe...
EDIT - Forums don't support use of those dang pesky arrowheads!
#20
12/16/2006 (5:51 pm)
Torque X wouldn't help Mac and Linux developers any, though ;)
Torque Owner Mike Rowley
Mike Rowley
Lots of additional features. Check out both demos and see for yourself. :-)