We'll miss you Berserk
by Sean H. · in General Discussion · 12/05/2006 (9:20 am) · 14 replies
I didn't agree with your methods. I thought you came off as coarse and harsh in your posts. sometimes your posts were a bit hard to understand, but you stood up for what you believe and you didn't let up for a second. I respect that.
Thread is locked
#2
12/05/2006 (10:02 am)
Sounds like a game-in-a-day contest. 
#3
12/05/2006 (10:14 am)
There was a game with Mario working in similar field so - why not :D 
#4
12/05/2006 (10:32 am)
Evil Otto was electrifying in Berzerk.
#5
I honor you berserk.
12/05/2006 (2:35 pm)
Lets all take a second to honor the memory of Berserk. he was a simple man who wanted nothing but good torque documentation...by any means necessary.I honor you berserk.
#7
12/05/2006 (3:36 pm)
Nothing, really. 
#8
I like to put things in a balance; I can see some of Berserk's positions. I can understand GarageGame's sometimes.
NO ONE is 100% correct all of the time[not even here; oh-oh, I can hear the slams werkin' their way forward], No One. I have found faults in both positions. Have a nice day.
I recently read where it will take C++ to make a game...gee; when I arrived here 3 years ago; I do not think that was the position and what I heard then, from the 'chorus'. I think I heard, "You CAN make a game with the engine, as is..."
...and quite frankly. Then should be some form of testing bar, before licenses are granted, then; or does that mess with revenue flow??? I mean, wouldn't that help with your Customer base, it would seem, the organization is interested in?? Make certain the only folks licensing the engine are 'capable' to negate any negative 'word of mouth'? Just curious for an actual discussion, as opposed to flames and ridicule. Any thoughts?
Cheers.
12/05/2006 (4:34 pm)
Just wait kiddies.... It doesn't take all that long to be kicked and spit upon by the 'boyz'; remember that. You really only get 15 minutes in the Sun...better make 'em count. You can laugh, ridicule, smear...Karma, babies, Karma. Like ballast jettisoned to 'lighten' the load...takes care of things for a little while, ;). Help and be helped.I like to put things in a balance; I can see some of Berserk's positions. I can understand GarageGame's sometimes.
NO ONE is 100% correct all of the time[not even here; oh-oh, I can hear the slams werkin' their way forward], No One. I have found faults in both positions. Have a nice day.
I recently read where it will take C++ to make a game...gee; when I arrived here 3 years ago; I do not think that was the position and what I heard then, from the 'chorus'. I think I heard, "You CAN make a game with the engine, as is..."
...and quite frankly. Then should be some form of testing bar, before licenses are granted, then; or does that mess with revenue flow??? I mean, wouldn't that help with your Customer base, it would seem, the organization is interested in?? Make certain the only folks licensing the engine are 'capable' to negate any negative 'word of mouth'? Just curious for an actual discussion, as opposed to flames and ridicule. Any thoughts?
Cheers.
#9
I understand your position.
and I mostly agree.
I dont know what happened. I missed the whole thing.
I would just like to state that, building a Game with the Torque engine Is doable.
back then and now as a scriptable interface, or c++.
Honestly you Can.
But you have to understand that, if indeed that is the perspective (build a game with no changes)
you have to agree that you are not going to be making the next doom.
you will be making something simpler that does not shoot so high.
for example, the demo application you can make a fun to play shooter with some simple vehicles, with no c++ changes. (workaround's available for any showstopping c++ bugs, if any)
you can make a 2d game from the gui code in the interface alone. honestly you can.
so to state you need c++ is wrong, now what you are referring to is people saying years ago this could be done and yes it can, we both know that anyone needing to make serious changes is going to have to have the capability to do that themselves.
and I am the wrong person to even mention the need for documentation to.
I despise code doc, it is a fallback for when there is a problem in understanding the mechanics.
it is a reference manual at best, not nearly as clear as header files and source for some.
so I cannot respond to the need for it, with anything other than my perspective.
no flame's here bro, just wanted to state that I would be comfortable making a game as long as the design was sound.(in the script)
so as far as a recruitment level, I completely disagree.
this would be a bad thing, like censorship.
this budding community is a good place for people to even get a foothold in the knowledge.
knowledge in all fields should be spread to any interested people. period.
just my 2 cents.
-Badguy
12/05/2006 (5:27 pm)
Rex:I understand your position.
and I mostly agree.
I dont know what happened. I missed the whole thing.
I would just like to state that, building a Game with the Torque engine Is doable.
back then and now as a scriptable interface, or c++.
Honestly you Can.
But you have to understand that, if indeed that is the perspective (build a game with no changes)
you have to agree that you are not going to be making the next doom.
you will be making something simpler that does not shoot so high.
for example, the demo application you can make a fun to play shooter with some simple vehicles, with no c++ changes. (workaround's available for any showstopping c++ bugs, if any)
you can make a 2d game from the gui code in the interface alone. honestly you can.
so to state you need c++ is wrong, now what you are referring to is people saying years ago this could be done and yes it can, we both know that anyone needing to make serious changes is going to have to have the capability to do that themselves.
and I am the wrong person to even mention the need for documentation to.
I despise code doc, it is a fallback for when there is a problem in understanding the mechanics.
it is a reference manual at best, not nearly as clear as header files and source for some.
so I cannot respond to the need for it, with anything other than my perspective.
no flame's here bro, just wanted to state that I would be comfortable making a game as long as the design was sound.(in the script)
so as far as a recruitment level, I completely disagree.
this would be a bad thing, like censorship.
this budding community is a good place for people to even get a foothold in the knowledge.
knowledge in all fields should be spread to any interested people. period.
just my 2 cents.
-Badguy
#10
David's post doesn't make sense anymore :-)
12/05/2006 (5:47 pm)
Hey Sean, what happend to fight the power man!?David's post doesn't make sense anymore :-)
#11
I would not have passed *ANY* testing bar when I purchased TGE about 2 yrs ago. The last time I had did any programming was basic with a VIC-20 when I was an adolescent. Even now, I still have trouble with a true grasp of C++, Scripting properly and such.
But here is the difference. I understand that these are *MY* limitations, not the engines. I understood from the start that game development is hard, I mean really...if it took Valve seven years, fourty full time and a number of contract employees to produce HL2, can I really expect working primarily alone (and with some great help from the community -- I'm not trying to slight it in the least) that I can ever rival their results?
Some people just have some type of schism with reality and think that when things get hard it's got to be someone elses fault. I've spent my share of hours and hours staring at a chunk of code when suddenly I realize I forgot a semicolon or something. I'd love to blame someone for my difficulties. In almost all cases it's been my own problem.
I have never been able to grasp this idea that Garage Games has misrepresented exactly what they are offering. I have *NEVER* felt misled by GG or anyone in the community regarding the difficulty of building a game or the (in)complete nature of a product or a time frame for delivery, and I come from a background competely alien to this world.
I did the research, understood the limitations in both TGE and buying into the EA of TSE/TGEA and I can competely understand the pace of building something of quality. Some day CN:MI will be complete, and I already anticipate before it is done I will begin to hear the same moans from some who ask "why is it taking so long?" or some glib "I could have knocked that out in six months".
Maybe, maybe not. But in the end it will depend on my own will and determination, not waiting for that perfect build of some engine or some magical tool so that I can finally get to making my game. I really don't think I'll live that long.
- Alan
www.reallyreallygoodthings.com
12/05/2006 (5:57 pm)
@Rex I would not have passed *ANY* testing bar when I purchased TGE about 2 yrs ago. The last time I had did any programming was basic with a VIC-20 when I was an adolescent. Even now, I still have trouble with a true grasp of C++, Scripting properly and such.
But here is the difference. I understand that these are *MY* limitations, not the engines. I understood from the start that game development is hard, I mean really...if it took Valve seven years, fourty full time and a number of contract employees to produce HL2, can I really expect working primarily alone (and with some great help from the community -- I'm not trying to slight it in the least) that I can ever rival their results?
Some people just have some type of schism with reality and think that when things get hard it's got to be someone elses fault. I've spent my share of hours and hours staring at a chunk of code when suddenly I realize I forgot a semicolon or something. I'd love to blame someone for my difficulties. In almost all cases it's been my own problem.
I have never been able to grasp this idea that Garage Games has misrepresented exactly what they are offering. I have *NEVER* felt misled by GG or anyone in the community regarding the difficulty of building a game or the (in)complete nature of a product or a time frame for delivery, and I come from a background competely alien to this world.
I did the research, understood the limitations in both TGE and buying into the EA of TSE/TGEA and I can competely understand the pace of building something of quality. Some day CN:MI will be complete, and I already anticipate before it is done I will begin to hear the same moans from some who ask "why is it taking so long?" or some glib "I could have knocked that out in six months".
Maybe, maybe not. But in the end it will depend on my own will and determination, not waiting for that perfect build of some engine or some magical tool so that I can finally get to making my game. I really don't think I'll live that long.
- Alan
www.reallyreallygoodthings.com
#12
Is Torque Game Engine Right for Me?
We like to say that Torque Game Engine (TGE) is the "Definitive 3D Game Engine for Serious Developers." What do we mean by that? Simply that creating a 3D game, even using a tool as powerful as TGE, requires initiative and dedication. This is true at any level of programming knowledge, and this is what we mean by "serious developers." Of course, all things considered, those inidividuals with superior experience in C++ programming, TorqueScript or similar scripting language, art design, and general game design are going to have an easier time hitting the ground and running with TGE, however; motivation can go a long way towards bridging that gap.
If you aren't sure if you're ready to take this step, maybe you should take a look at the 30-day free trial of Torque Game Builder, our 2D game engine, which has a much gentler learning curve. Otherwise, if you have your heart set on 3D, read on...
I have no programming experience, but I have tons of cool game ideas and really want to make a game!
To reiterate the above, learning TorqueScript, TGE, and 3D game programming from the ground up can be an uphill battle. That's not to say it can't be done with the right mix of motivation and dedication. You might find it easier to prototype your game in 2D using Torque Game Builder, which will get you started using TorqueScript, and understanding some of the basics of game programming.
On the flip side, there are plenty of great tutorials available to help you get on your feet using TGE. You can go through something as simple as making a character throw a ball that bounces off a wall to making an entire level of a first-person-shooter step-by-step, from scratch. Once you have a basic idea of how TGE works, you can head over to the Torque Developer's Network, a massive online archive of helpful documentation, or to the Forums, where you can have your every question answered by experienced TGE users.
I am a "Modder" that uses level design tools in games such as Quake, Half-Life, Tribes, etc.
This is great. You already understand the amount of work it takes to make a 3D game and have probably been exposed to scripting. TGE makes extensive use of level building tools connected with TorqueScript to create games.
I know Flash, Visual Basic, or some other scripting language.
You are already programming, and should be able to pick up TorqueScript without a problem. TorqueScript is a "curly bracket" language that looks much like C++, Javascript, or Actionscript. Once you know one of these languages, it is much easier to learn another one, so it might as well be TorqueScript. You also receive the full source code with TGE, and will want to pick up a compiler as well. If you don't know how to set up and use a compiler, we have extensive tutorials on TDN explainging the process.
I am a beginner in C++.
Awesome. You already know how to set up your compiler and will have no trouble modifying the C++ code behind the engine. TorqueScript looks much like a "typeless" version of C++. You will have no problem using TorqueScript the first time you try it.
I am proficient in C++.
Congratulations. Talk to GarageGames about helping to make the engine better.
I am a Torque Game Builder user.
You will find everything very familiar. TGB sits on "top" of TGE, so you will have a good idea of TorqueScript, datablocks, call-backs, .cs files, etc. Making 3D games can be quite a bit more challenging than making 2D games, but with your experience you will have a leg up on the average Joe.
In addition, one of the first things you read in the documentation tells about how to create a lot of your game in Torqscript then optimize it in C++. That is the way TGE works, that is the way we use it, that is the way it was designed to work, and that is the way it is documented. And the process is documented.
Any product can be better. TGE can be better, but it is workable and new games are shipping every week. It is not the GG mission to teach people how to program. 3D is really hard, so we lowered the bar by creating TGB. Either of these engines can be used to help you learn how to program, but they do not teach it.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
12/05/2006 (6:10 pm)
Ability to read might be a good place to start. We have been very careful to always say TGE is hard, and the FAQ has always stated C++ knowledge is needed. A few months ago we added this page:Is Torque Game Engine Right for Me?
We like to say that Torque Game Engine (TGE) is the "Definitive 3D Game Engine for Serious Developers." What do we mean by that? Simply that creating a 3D game, even using a tool as powerful as TGE, requires initiative and dedication. This is true at any level of programming knowledge, and this is what we mean by "serious developers." Of course, all things considered, those inidividuals with superior experience in C++ programming, TorqueScript or similar scripting language, art design, and general game design are going to have an easier time hitting the ground and running with TGE, however; motivation can go a long way towards bridging that gap.
If you aren't sure if you're ready to take this step, maybe you should take a look at the 30-day free trial of Torque Game Builder, our 2D game engine, which has a much gentler learning curve. Otherwise, if you have your heart set on 3D, read on...
I have no programming experience, but I have tons of cool game ideas and really want to make a game!
To reiterate the above, learning TorqueScript, TGE, and 3D game programming from the ground up can be an uphill battle. That's not to say it can't be done with the right mix of motivation and dedication. You might find it easier to prototype your game in 2D using Torque Game Builder, which will get you started using TorqueScript, and understanding some of the basics of game programming.
On the flip side, there are plenty of great tutorials available to help you get on your feet using TGE. You can go through something as simple as making a character throw a ball that bounces off a wall to making an entire level of a first-person-shooter step-by-step, from scratch. Once you have a basic idea of how TGE works, you can head over to the Torque Developer's Network, a massive online archive of helpful documentation, or to the Forums, where you can have your every question answered by experienced TGE users.
I am a "Modder" that uses level design tools in games such as Quake, Half-Life, Tribes, etc.
This is great. You already understand the amount of work it takes to make a 3D game and have probably been exposed to scripting. TGE makes extensive use of level building tools connected with TorqueScript to create games.
I know Flash, Visual Basic, or some other scripting language.
You are already programming, and should be able to pick up TorqueScript without a problem. TorqueScript is a "curly bracket" language that looks much like C++, Javascript, or Actionscript. Once you know one of these languages, it is much easier to learn another one, so it might as well be TorqueScript. You also receive the full source code with TGE, and will want to pick up a compiler as well. If you don't know how to set up and use a compiler, we have extensive tutorials on TDN explainging the process.
I am a beginner in C++.
Awesome. You already know how to set up your compiler and will have no trouble modifying the C++ code behind the engine. TorqueScript looks much like a "typeless" version of C++. You will have no problem using TorqueScript the first time you try it.
I am proficient in C++.
Congratulations. Talk to GarageGames about helping to make the engine better.
I am a Torque Game Builder user.
You will find everything very familiar. TGB sits on "top" of TGE, so you will have a good idea of TorqueScript, datablocks, call-backs, .cs files, etc. Making 3D games can be quite a bit more challenging than making 2D games, but with your experience you will have a leg up on the average Joe.
In addition, one of the first things you read in the documentation tells about how to create a lot of your game in Torqscript then optimize it in C++. That is the way TGE works, that is the way we use it, that is the way it was designed to work, and that is the way it is documented. And the process is documented.
Any product can be better. TGE can be better, but it is workable and new games are shipping every week. It is not the GG mission to teach people how to program. 3D is really hard, so we lowered the bar by creating TGB. Either of these engines can be used to help you learn how to program, but they do not teach it.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
#13
I do not see the point in this thread. Sometimes a person NEEDS to let up because his point is not getting across. To keep spamming 5-8 threads on the subject that all get closed is something I quite honestly can not see any "honour" in.
They were closed for a reason and I think the subject needs a good rest.
12/06/2006 (6:52 am)
Nothing wrong with Berserk's opinion at all. It is just the way he expresses them, and how anyone who does not agree to all of it gets called a fanboy, which I take as an insult.I do not see the point in this thread. Sometimes a person NEEDS to let up because his point is not getting across. To keep spamming 5-8 threads on the subject that all get closed is something I quite honestly can not see any "honour" in.
They were closed for a reason and I think the subject needs a good rest.
#14
12/06/2006 (8:35 am)
Well- seriously speaking (electricians aside) I think this entire quite recent "respect for standing what you believe" in wester culture is a bit of base. There is nothing worth respecting in blind determination to follow this or that path (be it a gaming engine choice or religion), especially if it causes trouble to other people or when your path is just wrong. Would you really respect lemmings because they are brave enough to jump of the cliff ?
Employee David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake