First Glance

#1 Honestly there is no "right" answer to this question.
There are so many disiplines involved with creating a 3D game today that without any specific background in at least one of more of the many technologies I doubt anyone will get very far by themselves without a mentor of some sort.

As I and other people have stated, learning C/C++ and Object Oriented programming is not a trival task, TGE has some ADVANCED concepts and idioms that will definately not be _obivious_ when trying to understand the syntax of the langauge and trying to solve a complete problem with little or no foundation to build upon.

There is a saying "Not knowing what you don't know".

The only way to find out what you don't know is to TRY.
The only way to find out how difficult something is to TRY .

I have suggested in other threads, that a cheap way to get a taste for 3D game development using something similar to TGE is to get one of the Open Source 3D engines and muck about with the SOURCE CODE. They are easy to find.

I have coding games since 1983, started using 6502 Assembler. I doubt anyone with ZERO knowledge will "turn out" anything the "first week". I expect it will take months for one person to understand the engine, the scripting, modeling, texturing, mission building, indoor area building, terrian editing, animating the models, etc. And that is if they have an intermediate to advanced understanding of other similar systems.

#2 Well you could download the demo; that will let you mod the standard game without touching C++; you'll just be using the script language. All the changes I have made so far have been to scripts, and I've got a partial implementation of team play, friendly fire and scoring. It's free this way, and once you've played with the demo for a while, you will be able to see if you want to buy the SDK.

#3 Ok. Where can I download that? And whats SDK?

I'm this close from buying TGE. And my brother had told me that maybe I should wait cause they might come out with something better. Can I get a tip on that issue?

#4 SDK = software development kit

in this case it's the full source and modeling tools

#5 who is "they"?

If you mean "they" as in some unknown party that may or may not exist, then who knows.

this is just my PERSONAL opinion but I am pretty sure you will be wasting a $100US on the TGE if you don't know what SDK means.

Man take some of the advice EVERYONE has being giving.

Get the demo for TGE its free, and if you have to have someone post the EXACT link then you will never get past WTF once you pay the $100US and don't actually GET anything but a bunch of text files ( 200MB+ worth ) that takes you a week and a dozen posts on how to use CVS to actually get them in the first place.

Then you get the joy of trying to get a complier to actually compile this mess. If you don't buy Visual Studio, without indepth knowledge you probably won't get it to compile period it the "free" GNU tools.

There are a fair share of messages on the boards that are the WTF, what did I buy, how do I get my money back, this does not work, wheres the game, etc. They are old messages and you have to hunt but there are there. Those people are gone and don't seem to be posting because they were looking/expecting something more than a bunch of text files.


Get on source forge, if you can even figure out how to get access to cvs and get the SDK for something like Crystal Space, get it to compile and get it to actually do something, not even mentioning "making a game" with it. You will get a good FREE introduction to the world of 3D game development with a C/C++ engine.

If the money is just burning a hole in your pocket and you just HAVE to BUY SOMETHING! Buy DarkBasic instead, hell, buy the $99US 3D GameStudio instead. At least with these products you will get REAL tech support instead of a bunch of grumpy insomniac developers doing their own development in their spare time and then people wanting them to help with EXTREMELY BASIC questions that are pretty much PRE-REQUISITES to actually doing something with TGE. I can almost guarantee that GG staff will not spend any time hand holding when they are working just as hard themselves trying to finish cleaning up the TGE code, fix bugs and add back in the functionality that was removed because of IP issues, do marking, do deals like the HomeLan deal, and "guide" RealmWars development.

The guys at DarkBasic and probably a lesser extent at 3DGS will have what could be called a "more comprehensive" tech support policy than you get with TGE, which is "good luck", you get what you got. Not that the GG staff has not been exceptionally helpfull, they are just not OBLIGATED to be helpfull.

#6 Jason,

I think your questions were pretty well answered back in the other forum topic you started with the same basic question. Based on your follow-up questions and responses it seems to me that your knowledge about computer programming is limited [and thats prefectly ok], so it would definetly behoove you to take a class or two or at the very least read some books on the subject.

Once you have some of the basics down, I'd completely avoid TGE and its demo. Go get Half-Life, UT, Quake3, DuesEx, Tribes2, et al... which ever better suits your fancy, and started playing with the scripting in them. I'd say UT/DuesEx or Tribes 2 are your best bets because they have a scripting language that doesn't need external compilers for unlike Quake2, Quake3 and its derivatives. The reason for this is that these are full and complete games that have a large base of code, functionality and content. You can do quite a lot with this as witnessed by the couple of mods that have gone on to become commercial products, i.e. CounterStrike, another HL mod [forget the name], and TacticalOps come to mind.

The TGE mod just doesn't have the same functionality nor content [art, sound, gametypes, code, AI, etc.] which means there is a lot more work to do to get a "game" up and running with it. And the TGE itself, you really should have programming experience [normally more than just a few classes in college] and be fimiliar with C, C++, Object-Oriented programming, etc. to get the most out of it or even a decent amount out of it.

#7 Jarrod how bout you type less, I see you have alot of free time to type books on a forum. Maybe it's because you treat other people like you have me, the 2 days you've known me. I don't care if you think I can't learn c++. Geez man. No wonder the new people here leave. How many posts have I seen of people complaining on this forum?! Some of you people don't even enjoy getting out of bed in the morning do you? As a new person here I've had alot of supporters that I needed. It's guys like you the sufficate someone who actually WANTS to learn. Don't reply if you have nothing good to say.

#8 Jason,

NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS SAID "YOU CAN NOT LEARN "

People have posted that MOST if not ALL the things you need to learn are NOT TRIVAL and EXTREMELY complex subjects. And have tried to warn you that you "don't know what you don't know" in one way or another.

This means that you don't have a point of reference to understand what you don't know that you don't know yet.

I know it is a bit cryptic like a Chinese proverb or something but it is well understood by people who developer software for a living.

I like others are trying to help you. I, like Chris who posted almost the EXACT same advice as myself and others, would not spend the time on trying to give advice, with logical reasoning and in great detail that you ASKED FOR if we were not trying to help and encourage you.

As an aside I type close to 100 wpm ( so most of my messages are "quick" messages as I see them ) without worrying about spelling :). And have time to reply because compiles during development take a few minutes.

After this post, I will stop trying to give YOU helpful advice, because I have come to the same conclusion that Chris did above, you don't even have a point of reference to understand the advice we are trying to give you. It APPEARS from your posts that your knowledge is limited, you are asking the SAME QUESTIONS only worded slightly different, and you are looking for someone to give you a specific answer you are looking for. This does NOT imply that someone things you CAN NOT LEARN these things, it just means you have not learned them YET!

For one reason or another, you are ignoring our advice and not trying to understand WHY we are giving such advice, and flaming anyone who is not posting what you want to hear.

I did give you helpful reponses, and lots of it, start somewhere else with something much simpler. I went out of my way to give you FREE examples and starters, with what my experience was with those tools.

Answer this!
What do you want to hear as a helpful response?

If that answer is, "dude you will be able to create the most l33t kewl sh1t with TGE, it total r0x0rs" then you won't get that answer, not from anyone who really cares about helping you and wants to see you succeed.

Those of us "bringing you down" are only being realistic based on the limited information we have about you, which is not much, trying to keep you from biting off more than you can chew. Based on your posts with questions like "what is source code?", "what is SDK?", TGE is enough to choke a dozen horses. This is NOT judgement, it is imperical, a fact.

Warning analogy >>>

Those questions are like someone saying I am going to learn to fly, I am thinking about buying a Space Shuttle and learning in that. Then asking, "What is an aileron?", "What is the Bernolli Principal?", "What does re-entry mean?" What kind of response or advice would a Shuttle pilot give you? "doodz the shuttle roxors and is most excellent to skank the sky in for noobs?". Not unless the guy wanted to see you fail.

We are trying to point you in a direction that you might be able to learn something useful. If you start wrong you will get discouraged and quit, if you start right you will be successfull.

You wanted experienced developers opinions in the other thread. In this one you want people with no experience to answer your questions, well guess what, no experience means no valid opinon, because we are comparative animals. How can someone with no experience, give and opinion when they have nothing to compare it to. So it seems you are looking for a specific answer and not gettting it.

Here is what $100US gets YOU, from the point of view of someone that has no-experience in programming or anything related. This does not imply that you can not LEARN all this, but we can not stress the shear VOLUME of information that you will be expected to learn/know.
It has taken many of us YEARS to aquire all the information and how it fits together.

I really doubt any of the GG staff wants to anyone to buy the Source Code to the engine and be dissapointed with it, it makes for make word of mouth. Especially if the purchaser did not know what to expect or what they were getting.

From a complete non-programmer point of view what you get with TGE with no concept of what a real "learning curve is".

Realistic non-programmer view on

This is what you get . . .

LOTS OF PLAIN TEXT FILES!

Close to 300MB of PLAIN TEXT FILES!

You get LOTS of TEXT files that are indecypherable if you do not know anything about C/C++ and programming in general. They can be challenging even if you do :)

And those text files are accessed via CVS which is not the easiest program to master in the first place, most of us use it every day at our "real" jobs, so it is no problem. But it is poorly documented and the documentation is written by someone ( a geek ) who knows how it works FOR another geek who already knows how it works.

You get one LOUSY player model that not only REQUIRES 3D Studio MAX 3.x ( $4000US ) or better to use, but it also REQUIRES another $99US plugin for MAX! The two LOUSY weapon models don't even animate and don't have any textures. The lousy player model can only walk, jump, run and side step, there is not even any SWIMMING in the engine right now.

There are NO vehicle models, and no examples of vehicles.

Now for creating your own models for _your_ game, which you not only want to do, but HAVE to do . . .

You get some buggy exporters that are plugins that require 3D Studio MAX ( $4000US ), an even buggier one that works with MilkShape ($20US ) but does not fully support animation correctly in TGE.

Misinformation correction : someone else said you get modeling tools, YOU DON'T! There is a "mission editor" that runs inside the game engine that is pooly documented to undocumented and cryptic at best, the "terrain" editor is the same way, both in my experience will crash the engine HARD if you click on the wrong thing or do something wrong ( this means they are not mature or stable, but functional ).
There are I believe 2 entire mission examples. One has more water and that is about the only difference in the terrain.

You have to aquire and learn to use a Mapping tool like Quark or WorldCraft ( these are NOT EASY to learn on their own, much less at the same time as learning all the TGE specific stuff ). If you have never created a map for HL or a Quake derived game you are in for a frustrating couple of weeks / months learning these crappy programs, that crash alot and are generally user nasty. Luckly these programs don't cost money, but they do have an associated cost.

Then you have to use an poorly documented buggy command line program to convert the .map files to what TGE will understand. This program is EXTEREMLY picky about how the .map files are created and saved out, and the error messages it gives are cryptic as best.

Then you get what, MORE TEXT FILES, but these are script files, they LOOK sorta like the C++ files but follow a completely DIFFERENT set of rules! Which means more learning curve. And guess what, there is even LESS documentation on these because they are TGE specific. At least with C++ it is an ANSI Standard language and you can get books on it and take classes.

It gets worse. The "GAME" portion of a TGE game, you know the "game play and rules" are implemenented completely in this poorly documented C++ like language!
And it does not have a syntax checker, compiler or debugger to help figure out what is going wrong, where or why. You are going to be using NOTEPAD.
Which means you HAVE to master it to actually create a game.

Only Ray of light:
They do supply a pre-compiled .exe file of the DemoApp, which is a "working" example of a game. But it use the one crappy player model, and the two crappy "for position only" weapons and support death-match only gameplay on the two lousy missions that are included.

You are now thinking I could spend $19.99US and get Serious Sam and get more that you could do more with the "first day/week".

Realistic newbie point of view OFF!

NOTE: I LOVE TGE, I am not knocking it or the GG staff, I am trying to look at what I think is awesome and a great deal from the point of view of someone that has no point of reference. I knew what I was getting and did not EXPECT more, I actually got MORE than I expected because I am a jaded developer type. But a couple of people have posted WTF did I just buy type posts when they realize they got 300MB of PLAIN TEXT FILES and have absolutely know idea what they are.

Last time advice.

There are lots of better choices for someone that wants to learn how to make modern technology games.

TGE is aimed at Indie Game developers.

Indie game developers != newbies to programming / game development.

Here is a Friendly challenge for you Jason.

Get Crystal Space from SourceForge, get it with CVS, get it to compile, and run the example application it has, then make a demo with it it.

If you can do this, then TGE is for you.

If not you will have saved $100US and might start to understand where those of us that you percieve as "negative" [ excluding Matt Webster he IS negative all the time :) ] you start to understand the context their posts are in [ ignoring Matt of course :) ]

#9 I want to clarify some things. Dark Basic does not give "real" customer support, nor does A5. DB does not even have forums and the A5 guys have forums only.

Downloading the Torque is 15M, not 200+M. CVS may be seen as a hassle, but it is the tool that allows us to continually upgrade the engine and get new features out to our users.

More to the subject of this thread, I don't think you should purchase the Torque if you do not know what "sdk" means. However, if you are that new to game development and coding, none of the engines mentioned here will help you.

Jeff Tunnell GG

#10 Just to correct a few things (while I agree with the sentiment).

The RW demo DOES have a reasonable player model and weapon.

The racing demo DOES have a vehicle :))

The max exporter isnt buggy, its just completely and utterly insanely complicated for what it does...

Just wanted to clear that up.

Phil.

#11 Wow, there still is one person out there who still thinks I hate everything!

Probably believe the world is flat, don't ya?

#12

Quote:The guys at DarkBasic and probably a lesser extent at 3DGS will have what could be called a "more comprehensive" tech support policy than you get with TGE, which is "good luck", you get what you got. Not that the GG staff has not been exceptionally helpfull, they are just not OBLIGATED to be helpfull.

I went out of my way NOT to DISRESPECT the GG Staff, Jeff. Notice that the comment about REAL tech support was more aimed at "MEMBER" type responses. www.realgametools.com is a much richer resource for DB and newbies in general than the Private SDK forums will ever be. Because they are focused on newbies, and TGE is focus toward veterans. You guys have been more than helpful and have gone out of your way to help, but I was trying to stress that the EXPECTED level of users/licensers is different with these differnt products.

I never meant to imply that GG did not have "real" tech support, as a disparaging remark, but as a descriptive remark. That sentance with the REAL capitalized was in the context of member supported tech support, like this thread right here.

How many people ( members ) do you expect are going to take the time and explain what a NORMAL is to someone that is asking what source code is the week before?

And as all our individual projects get ramped up and into serious development, I am sure the amount of time spent on these forums will get thinner and thinner.

On CVS, I use CVS everyday and is probably the BEST choice for you guys to distrubute the SDK, not condeming GG for using it, actually I am GLAD you guys are using it one more thing I did not have to learn :), just trying to convey to the un-initiated that it is not as simple as the "as seen on TV" type people may make it.

I just can't wait for the LW exporter to support animation, MAX is horrible and I am an old school LWer from versin 0.9 :)

My experience with DarkBasic and the guys that created it was SUPERB ( it might help that I met them in person at E3 their first year pimping it there by wandering around handing out CD's ), I was tutoring someone on learning programming and we used it. It has been around for 2 years and has what I would consider a MATURE user base and lots and lots of example code and applications available, and LOTS more users to ask.
The forums on the offial dark basic site have been down a while, but every used this alternate site anyway.
www.realgametools.com/yabbse/

They even have CD's with models and animations and source code for dozens of games for cheap.

My expeirences with A5 ( A3 ) at the time are sketchy but they did have a person that was dedicated to tech support at the time, at least for evaluators :) We never did buy it because the project never got complete funding.

I will stand by my statement that A5 and DB provide "more comprehensive" tech support because they are aiming at at different audience than TGE and have been around longer if nothing else, and MAY a have larger staff definately have a larger user base and a more mature user base. This statement should not DETRACT from the great work that GG and its Staff have acomplished to date! For newbies all this is a good thing.

I expect this to change with GarageGames and TGE as more people license the engine, get familiar with it, and become experts at it. Personally I hope to be at least one of those experts by the end of the year. :)

That said it I bought TGE for a reason :)

POWER!

When I said, demo app, I was NOT talking about RealmWars I was talking about the "DEMO APP" that is in the /example directory.
So yes there is one really nice player model and weapon for RealmWars, but that is it. There seems to be lots of opinons on what "the TGE demo" actually is. To me it means the example demo app in the example dir that comes with the SDK.

I would swear that the entire CVS tree for Release_1_1_1 with the compiled executables ( tools and "example game" ) and realmwars is about 200+ MB on the CD I burned in on as a offline back up if I am not MAD! Hell I might have glanced at it wrong and it might be 20+ MB and it seemed to take forever, but then maybe I was not burning at full speed it was like 4AM when I did this! :(, if I am wrong my bad, apologies all around but the point remains it is a tonne of lines of code. To me this is a good thing, I was just trying to illustrate the MAGNITUDE of the program in the context of this thread.

I don't have the racing demo, so I stand corrected, ignorance is bliss :)

Insanely complex is WORSE than BUGGY! :)

And to Matt look for the :) faces everywhere man, they are there if you look hard enough. ;p

#13 If you burned the Torque dir to CD after you ran a compile process the 200MB figure sounds about right..

After cleaning everything I could the total size is about 60MB (I've got a few extra directories and have added a few files that aren't in a clean CVS)

#14 yeah it was after a compile and included 145 MB of documentation I created with Together Control Center and STI Understand for C++ ( doh! )

#15

Quote:
There seems to be lots of opinons on what "the TGE demo" actually is. To me it means the example demo app in the example dir that comes with the SDK.

From my POV, for developers and end users alike, Realm Wars can now be considered *the* demo app - the engine itself is just the demo app, RW runs as a mod, and most of (all?) the RW content is provided in source format (e.g. .max files)

#16 Realm Wars is definitely considered the demo of the Torque Game Engine. If you click on the Demo link, it will take you to the RW download area.

Jeff Tunnell GG