UT2004 or Torque Game Engine?
by Grant Fowler · in Torque Game Engine · 11/22/2006 (7:38 pm) · 65 replies
Unreal Tournament 2004 Vs Torque Game Engine.
I havn't stopped thinking about my Torque games
project. Basically I have got a team together of just under 10 students with skills in
programming and art creation but I'm having second thoughts about Torque as our choice of
Engine.
You see, the 'experienced' ones like a guy who runs our Unreal Tournament 2004 modding
class recommends that game engine over Torque for us, not yet experienced game
developers.
I know Torque is also primarily, a fps oriented engine and the game my team and I will be
implementing is an RPG / (Action Adventure) (a micro version of Oblivion is one way I
would describe it). I look at Torque and I believe if my team and I think through the
best way to design our game we will come up against fewer brick walls and tall buildings
to scale during the development process. [I'm adopting a prototype based approach, where
by we will have a working game at the end of each cycle. Each cycle we will design and
implement a new feature until we have our "FUN" game.]
My UT2004 modding teacher says that it would be a lot quicker to create a game in UT2004
and that Torque has more of a linear and steeper learning curve. Not to mention I've
received some comments from other students about how annoying or hard to use the Torque
script was. (one team of students spent 2 years on a project like battlefield and finding
it to fall apart - possibly due to the team but maybe due to the complexity of the engine)
Would using UT2004 with just its script, level editor (no source code) be more suited to
us making an RPG. Or can you give me reasons why combating an engine like Torque (prob
more suited to 'experienced' developers) might give us a better outcome.
The one good point I have received about Torque is that you can (more easily) have a
commercial product at the end unlike UT2004.
Please share your reasons for choosing Torque over Unreal Tournament
I havn't stopped thinking about my Torque games
project. Basically I have got a team together of just under 10 students with skills in
programming and art creation but I'm having second thoughts about Torque as our choice of
Engine.
You see, the 'experienced' ones like a guy who runs our Unreal Tournament 2004 modding
class recommends that game engine over Torque for us, not yet experienced game
developers.
I know Torque is also primarily, a fps oriented engine and the game my team and I will be
implementing is an RPG / (Action Adventure) (a micro version of Oblivion is one way I
would describe it). I look at Torque and I believe if my team and I think through the
best way to design our game we will come up against fewer brick walls and tall buildings
to scale during the development process. [I'm adopting a prototype based approach, where
by we will have a working game at the end of each cycle. Each cycle we will design and
implement a new feature until we have our "FUN" game.]
My UT2004 modding teacher says that it would be a lot quicker to create a game in UT2004
and that Torque has more of a linear and steeper learning curve. Not to mention I've
received some comments from other students about how annoying or hard to use the Torque
script was. (one team of students spent 2 years on a project like battlefield and finding
it to fall apart - possibly due to the team but maybe due to the complexity of the engine)
Would using UT2004 with just its script, level editor (no source code) be more suited to
us making an RPG. Or can you give me reasons why combating an engine like Torque (prob
more suited to 'experienced' developers) might give us a better outcome.
The one good point I have received about Torque is that you can (more easily) have a
commercial product at the end unlike UT2004.
Please share your reasons for choosing Torque over Unreal Tournament
Thread is locked
#2
So for that reason I don't see the point in creating a Mod.
More directly, I think that the Torque line of tools are very much the same, only falling short in its building creation tools.
Many people are working on RPGs and using Torque, I can't see why UT engine would be any faster in development of a RPG over Torque?
Don't forget Dreamer's MMO Kit. http://www.mydreamrpg.com/
So I think Torque is a great option over all - because your work, is your work. I have found it great to use over the years.
But with that said, your teacher is keen on UT2004 engine, and so may not be able to help you learn the ropes quickly enough to complete your project and you may end up with a lot less then you thought.
11/22/2006 (8:14 pm)
I think the main thing for TGE/TGEA is that its easily accessible to indie developers unlike Unreal Tournament, which I'm sure is a great engine but I wouldn't consider it myself at all as i know at the end I couldn't make anything of my work unless I buy the far more expensive licences.So for that reason I don't see the point in creating a Mod.
More directly, I think that the Torque line of tools are very much the same, only falling short in its building creation tools.
Many people are working on RPGs and using Torque, I can't see why UT engine would be any faster in development of a RPG over Torque?
Don't forget Dreamer's MMO Kit. http://www.mydreamrpg.com/
So I think Torque is a great option over all - because your work, is your work. I have found it great to use over the years.
But with that said, your teacher is keen on UT2004 engine, and so may not be able to help you learn the ropes quickly enough to complete your project and you may end up with a lot less then you thought.
#3
@david
Its not a project thats part of my degree, its separate. So we could stretch development over 2 years if my team find themselves not able to cope with work uni and this. (hopefully they are going to be obsessed with making this game like I). We want to potentially make a product out of this so wont be able to use 3dsmax or anyother expensive software due to licencing fees. We only have education versions available.
We are planning to use programs like blender, GIMP etc.. to create our art assets. However Im not sure how this will effect our timeline and may have to resort back to using the software thats better and that we've had more experience in and give our game for free to the community, as we will probably do anyway.
I have 3 other programmers that will need licenses for the torque engine, (expensive).
I haven't had experience with UT2004 myself but some classmates have, plus its a pain to buy. I can't get it retail so who's going to play my mod of the people who haven't yet bought the game. At least with a Torque made game, gamers can download it without having to own anything prior.
cheers
@Edward
Would maybe starting out moding be better before moving on to torque?
This is not a school project, sorry i didn't mention that. It's something we are doing in addition to our degree.
btw thanks for the link
cheers
11/23/2006 (6:29 am)
Yo thanks for the quick reply guys@david
Its not a project thats part of my degree, its separate. So we could stretch development over 2 years if my team find themselves not able to cope with work uni and this. (hopefully they are going to be obsessed with making this game like I). We want to potentially make a product out of this so wont be able to use 3dsmax or anyother expensive software due to licencing fees. We only have education versions available.
We are planning to use programs like blender, GIMP etc.. to create our art assets. However Im not sure how this will effect our timeline and may have to resort back to using the software thats better and that we've had more experience in and give our game for free to the community, as we will probably do anyway.
I have 3 other programmers that will need licenses for the torque engine, (expensive).
I haven't had experience with UT2004 myself but some classmates have, plus its a pain to buy. I can't get it retail so who's going to play my mod of the people who haven't yet bought the game. At least with a Torque made game, gamers can download it without having to own anything prior.
cheers
@Edward
Would maybe starting out moding be better before moving on to torque?
This is not a school project, sorry i didn't mention that. It's something we are doing in addition to our degree.
btw thanks for the link
cheers
#5
i see upgrading emptying my pockets if unreal2007 comes out next year, not just to mod but to play
11/23/2006 (7:32 am)
Thankx for your opinion, i see upgrading emptying my pockets if unreal2007 comes out next year, not just to mod but to play
#7
11/23/2006 (12:35 pm)
Wait for Unreal 3 and license it, I'd say. :) 
#8
11/23/2006 (12:52 pm)
Nope. Gears of War used the Unreal 3 engine, but UT2K7 is not out yet. 
#9
Your teacher is absolutely right in the "quicker" aspect, though very incorrect in the entire statement. It would be a lot faster to make 'something' in UT2004 because you won't be making a game but a mod.
Sure if you want to make a mod then use UT2004 hands down. If you want to make a game you then only have two choices.
1) Use Torque
2) Get a license to Unreal tech (hundreds of thousands of dollars) and use Unreal
Now the point being if you do even decide to license Unreal (assuming you can get that much money) you won't be making a mod any longer. You will have to dig into the source code (especially if you make an RPG out of Unreal, like Torque, it's primarily an FPS engine) and be spending lots of time developing a game.
My point is that you need to first decide whether you are going to make a game or a mod. Using Unreal to mod is not the same as making a game (and you definately can't sell it). Though if you want to make a very innovative mod to show off then it may be worth it. If you want to make an actual game Torque (hands down) is your best option. The only other real option between the two engines would be to gather hundreds of thousands of dollars to make a game with Unreal.
11/23/2006 (12:58 pm)
Quote:My UT2004 modding teacher says that it would be a lot quicker to create a game in UT2004
and that Torque has more of a linear and steeper learning curve
Your teacher is absolutely right in the "quicker" aspect, though very incorrect in the entire statement. It would be a lot faster to make 'something' in UT2004 because you won't be making a game but a mod.
Sure if you want to make a mod then use UT2004 hands down. If you want to make a game you then only have two choices.
1) Use Torque
2) Get a license to Unreal tech (hundreds of thousands of dollars) and use Unreal
Now the point being if you do even decide to license Unreal (assuming you can get that much money) you won't be making a mod any longer. You will have to dig into the source code (especially if you make an RPG out of Unreal, like Torque, it's primarily an FPS engine) and be spending lots of time developing a game.
My point is that you need to first decide whether you are going to make a game or a mod. Using Unreal to mod is not the same as making a game (and you definately can't sell it). Though if you want to make a very innovative mod to show off then it may be worth it. If you want to make an actual game Torque (hands down) is your best option. The only other real option between the two engines would be to gather hundreds of thousands of dollars to make a game with Unreal.
#10
"Would maybe starting out moding be better before moving on to torque?"
Well you can start out by modding the Torque starter.fps game, as I'm sure most start this way?
But modding on another game before Torque? I don't see the advantages, it would only delay development and your learning of the engine. Maybe starting with Torque, and learning its ropes with a smaller mod/game maybe including many features you'll need for your full and complete game.
11/23/2006 (2:13 pm)
Matthew has hit the nail on the head :-)."Would maybe starting out moding be better before moving on to torque?"
Well you can start out by modding the Torque starter.fps game, as I'm sure most start this way?
But modding on another game before Torque? I don't see the advantages, it would only delay development and your learning of the engine. Maybe starting with Torque, and learning its ropes with a smaller mod/game maybe including many features you'll need for your full and complete game.
#11
It is a game I am wanting to make not a mod. The approach I will be taking is to first prototype a small version of our RPG with only key game play and functionality. This way I can probably use the fps.starter as a start and build on or mod that to create a working prototype.
Also I may not have clearly mentioned to my moding teacher I was wanting to make a game and not a mod.
Thanks a lot for the feedback guys
11/23/2006 (7:38 pm)
Thank you Matt and Edward. It is a game I am wanting to make not a mod. The approach I will be taking is to first prototype a small version of our RPG with only key game play and functionality. This way I can probably use the fps.starter as a start and build on or mod that to create a working prototype.
Also I may not have clearly mentioned to my moding teacher I was wanting to make a game and not a mod.
Thanks a lot for the feedback guys
#13
11/24/2006 (8:48 am)
Man..
#14
11/24/2006 (9:18 am)
Berserk, VS 2005 Express doesn't put any ads before execution, I have never seen an add, and I don't use anything except VS 2005 Express.
#15
11/24/2006 (9:29 am)
The Unreal 2 Engine, although out dated, is still extremely expensive. I feel it would be easier to create a game with that engine, however, I don't think the extra cash is worth it. Then you may be considering modding UT2004, the problem with that however, is that there is a NULL player base for that game. If you expect to get any player base, modding UT2004 is not an option. TSE ftw.
#17
It seems that in the midst of your walls of text, your main complaints are 1) documentation and 2) tools.
In terms of 1, I have been able to see where people have been coming from for a long time on the doco front. But I also find it odd to compare a company with a dedicated documentation team (like Microsoft's docu division, though Epic is not on that level) with one who has tried to deploy people on the documentation front (the new TGB documentation looks great, and I'm sure it took many man hours to put together). The documentation for TGE could be much, much better: yes. And it has been getting better. It's not where huge corporations with millions and millions of dollars to throw at documentation are at: no.
On 2, an included brush-based editor would be nice. Implementing Constructor just like UnrealEd would be cherry. Spending time and money to provide DTS exporters for Maya, Lightwave, Max, XSI, and Blender which support all of the features for DTS models consistently would also be wonderful. But it also comes down to money and deciding how and where to spend it. Having everyone who has written an exporter create versions that work at the same capacity on different platforms would take quite a lot of time and money. I think it would be money well-spent, though I do not know the logistics of such an initiative. It would be quite a boon to artists, and as new versions of the DTS format was released and upgraded for even higher features the artflow group would have to make sure that the exporters were in sync.
I believe in this instance, FTW means "For The Win" rather than "Fuck The World". I could be wrong, though.
I do, however, have difficulty believing that the vast majority of mod projects (including total conversions) could get the money together to both license the engine and get enough publisher support to actually pay that money back and hopefully start making a profit. If it were that easy, then some rather large and prominent mod teams would have already done it. Now, if it were a very popular mod (like Counterstrike in its free days) and caught on like crazy so that a publisher, working with Epic, thought about picking it up and modifying to for commercial viability, that is another thing. And that remote possibility is great. I play Unreal mods all the time and there are some great ones out there, including RPG mods.
But many of the engines you have listed have more documentation and how-to's from the community than from the companies themselves. The best articles on Valve-ERC are from experienced modders. UDN's community portal has a lot of great information as well.
I can understand that you are unhappy with TGE's documentation and tools, and because of that, I do not understand why you are not using Source or Unreal or CryEngine? If using TGE is miserable to you, why not use something else that is less miserable? Especially if you feel that you can find the angel investors to pay for the engine licensing and publishers willing to market and distribute your title.
11/24/2006 (11:03 am)
You can use any of those engines to make good games. You can add A6, Torque, Unity, BeyondVirtual, and such to the list as well as game languages like PlayBasic, Omega Basic, BlitzEtc, DarkBasic. All of them have commercial games of various types and stripes.It seems that in the midst of your walls of text, your main complaints are 1) documentation and 2) tools.
In terms of 1, I have been able to see where people have been coming from for a long time on the doco front. But I also find it odd to compare a company with a dedicated documentation team (like Microsoft's docu division, though Epic is not on that level) with one who has tried to deploy people on the documentation front (the new TGB documentation looks great, and I'm sure it took many man hours to put together). The documentation for TGE could be much, much better: yes. And it has been getting better. It's not where huge corporations with millions and millions of dollars to throw at documentation are at: no.
On 2, an included brush-based editor would be nice. Implementing Constructor just like UnrealEd would be cherry. Spending time and money to provide DTS exporters for Maya, Lightwave, Max, XSI, and Blender which support all of the features for DTS models consistently would also be wonderful. But it also comes down to money and deciding how and where to spend it. Having everyone who has written an exporter create versions that work at the same capacity on different platforms would take quite a lot of time and money. I think it would be money well-spent, though I do not know the logistics of such an initiative. It would be quite a boon to artists, and as new versions of the DTS format was released and upgraded for even higher features the artflow group would have to make sure that the exporters were in sync.
I believe in this instance, FTW means "For The Win" rather than "Fuck The World". I could be wrong, though.
I do, however, have difficulty believing that the vast majority of mod projects (including total conversions) could get the money together to both license the engine and get enough publisher support to actually pay that money back and hopefully start making a profit. If it were that easy, then some rather large and prominent mod teams would have already done it. Now, if it were a very popular mod (like Counterstrike in its free days) and caught on like crazy so that a publisher, working with Epic, thought about picking it up and modifying to for commercial viability, that is another thing. And that remote possibility is great. I play Unreal mods all the time and there are some great ones out there, including RPG mods.
But many of the engines you have listed have more documentation and how-to's from the community than from the companies themselves. The best articles on Valve-ERC are from experienced modders. UDN's community portal has a lot of great information as well.
I can understand that you are unhappy with TGE's documentation and tools, and because of that, I do not understand why you are not using Source or Unreal or CryEngine? If using TGE is miserable to you, why not use something else that is less miserable? Especially if you feel that you can find the angel investors to pay for the engine licensing and publishers willing to market and distribute your title.
#18
11/24/2006 (11:33 am)
Putting that aside- it's not an engine that makes a game. Sure, there is no point in starting with outdated technology if you can have better at same cost but even if you will go for low end it does not mean you can't make great game. Take a look at graphic of WOW- no normal mapping, no fancy shaders (or very little) and still- game sells like hell and earns more then some titles that have a great technology... and nothing else. Not a technology but way of using it.
#19
I am getting the vibe that using Torque will require a lot of dirty ground work and spending time confused about the script or the engine beacuse there isn't sufficient documentation for it. The forums seem great, but I have no assurance that what is on there is 'good industry practise'. As a learning tool, unreal seems a better option, due to its documentation. As a developing tool that results in an owned and sellable product, TGE or TSE looks like a great option but is only one of MANY.
I have used CRY teks sandbox that came with Farcry and seems like another engine I may consider. I havn't seen the improvements since the first game since the second wouldnt run on my pc. Has anyone played and could supply a link to any RPGs in the way of oblivion style that have been modded using the cry engine?
@David
" I play Unreal mods all the time and there are some great ones out there, including RPG mods. "
Could you post any links to where a lot of these are on the one site, or just a few links to some of the best, please? I'm wondering, because I havn't played any UT2004 RPG mods, if they are mostly FPS with RPG gameplay added or mixed (ie. wow rpg mod for counterstrike). Have some of them modified weapons, implemented a point and click interface or even create a oblivion or zelda?
11/24/2006 (12:06 pm)
@All I am getting the vibe that using Torque will require a lot of dirty ground work and spending time confused about the script or the engine beacuse there isn't sufficient documentation for it. The forums seem great, but I have no assurance that what is on there is 'good industry practise'. As a learning tool, unreal seems a better option, due to its documentation. As a developing tool that results in an owned and sellable product, TGE or TSE looks like a great option but is only one of MANY.
I have used CRY teks sandbox that came with Farcry and seems like another engine I may consider. I havn't seen the improvements since the first game since the second wouldnt run on my pc. Has anyone played and could supply a link to any RPGs in the way of oblivion style that have been modded using the cry engine?
@David
" I play Unreal mods all the time and there are some great ones out there, including RPG mods. "
Could you post any links to where a lot of these are on the one site, or just a few links to some of the best, please? I'm wondering, because I havn't played any UT2004 RPG mods, if they are mostly FPS with RPG gameplay added or mixed (ie. wow rpg mod for counterstrike). Have some of them modified weapons, implemented a point and click interface or even create a oblivion or zelda?
Employee David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake
I love both engines, and the idea of being able to sell it after your hard work is rewarding...but if your experience base is with UT and you would be starting at ground-zero in TGE, I would have to agree with your professor on using UT.
UnrealScript and TorqueScript aren't that alien to each other. But I'm not sure what his problem with it was. You could use either one to script out a RPG system.