Torque Shader Engine
by James T. Boylan · in Torque Game Engine · 11/16/2006 (1:13 pm) · 34 replies
I have a relatively quick question. TSE is looking rather impressive but I haven't been able to find any specific infomation on this. Is it the expectation to have TSE available for all platforms like TGE is? This is something that I was extremely curious about.
Thanks for the time on the response.
Thanks for the time on the response.
#3
As Stefan said, OpenGL and linux support went from certain to we'll (as in GG) probably support OpenGL on Macs and linux guys can support themselves. At least that's the last I've seen on the discussion of it.
I'm not holding my breath for TGEA on linux, at least any time soon, and am glad I didn't bite on the EA offer for TSE. If TGEA does get ported to Mac/OpenGL by GG, I'd be happy to help port and/or test it under linux. However, until I at least hear a few rumblings of work being done to make this happen, I have to assume that it won't happen.
Here's hoping I get pleasantly surprised by GG sooner, rather than later, :-).
11/17/2006 (1:30 am)
This thread, Linux Collaboration, contains some discussion amongst the linux guys and GG guys. It sheds some light on GG's position, concerns, issues, etc. with supporting linux and plans they have/had for linux at that time. Warning: its a long thread.As Stefan said, OpenGL and linux support went from certain to we'll (as in GG) probably support OpenGL on Macs and linux guys can support themselves. At least that's the last I've seen on the discussion of it.
I'm not holding my breath for TGEA on linux, at least any time soon, and am glad I didn't bite on the EA offer for TSE. If TGEA does get ported to Mac/OpenGL by GG, I'd be happy to help port and/or test it under linux. However, until I at least hear a few rumblings of work being done to make this happen, I have to assume that it won't happen.
Here's hoping I get pleasantly surprised by GG sooner, rather than later, :-).
#4
11/17/2006 (3:46 am)
Just one minor correction: TGEA is based on 1.5, not 1.4.
#5
I might consider grabbing a copy of TSE and attempting to use this new tool released by ATI Develoeprs:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/hlsl2glsl
Supposedly it will convert DirectX code into OpenGL code. Curious to see how it will work.
I am curious when TSE started getting refered to as TGEA. I've been a little out of the loop for a little while due to business so I haven't been keeping up on things. But I can't seem to find any reference material in the TSE area that would explain it.
And as to Titus, I have looked over it and the MMO Kit, its something I have on the consideration board, but not something I yet would purchase. I haven't been able to find much information on their licensing practices and their ordering system is unweildly. That and considering its a third party package. All three issues make me hesitent to purchase it.
11/17/2006 (6:02 am)
@Todd -Thanks for pointing me to that threead. It was very enlightening, if a little dishearteninng.I might consider grabbing a copy of TSE and attempting to use this new tool released by ATI Develoeprs:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/hlsl2glsl
Supposedly it will convert DirectX code into OpenGL code. Curious to see how it will work.
I am curious when TSE started getting refered to as TGEA. I've been a little out of the loop for a little while due to business so I haven't been keeping up on things. But I can't seem to find any reference material in the TSE area that would explain it.
And as to Titus, I have looked over it and the MMO Kit, its something I have on the consideration board, but not something I yet would purchase. I haven't been able to find much information on their licensing practices and their ordering system is unweildly. That and considering its a third party package. All three issues make me hesitent to purchase it.
#7
No it's not. They ported it to 1.5 already, check the forums.
Edit: New build going up this week
11/17/2006 (9:25 am)
Quote:
Now, TSE (or TGEA, whatever GG likes to call it) is still 1.4 + LK, until new refactorings.
No it's not. They ported it to 1.5 already, check the forums.
Edit: New build going up this week
#8
Do you happen to have a link you can post to point to where they say it? Sometimes thats easier than searching it out ourselves.
As to porting it over to OpenGL. When I break down and purchase TSE I'll see how this coverter works on it and go from there. Might be a while though. I'm still getting comfortable with TGE 1.5 itself and trying to figure out how it all runs together. There is definately a lot fo ground to cover on it.
11/17/2006 (9:27 am)
@Stefan -Do you happen to have a link you can post to point to where they say it? Sometimes thats easier than searching it out ourselves.
As to porting it over to OpenGL. When I break down and purchase TSE I'll see how this coverter works on it and go from there. Might be a while though. I'm still getting comfortable with TGE 1.5 itself and trying to figure out how it all runs together. There is definately a lot fo ground to cover on it.
#9
11/17/2006 (9:34 am)
Quote:
The new build will have the TGE 1.5 merge (targeted towards editor and gui fixes) and a bunch of small bug fixes.
#10
As for hlsl2glsl, I saw the news article about it posted at opengl.org, but didn't follow up on it. I assume it only translates the shader code and doesn't do DirectX -> OpenGL translation. I would expect the number of lines and complexity of shader code is dwarfed by the number of lines and files of/containing DirectX code.
I recall seeing the term TGEA for the first time a few weeks ago. I think it was in a GG'er .plan/blog.
With TLK integrated into 1.5 now, you can get some pretty decent visuals. If you add resources like CG Dynamic Gamma & Water Upgrade, you're getting even better renders from TGE. At this point, one is mostly just missing ATLAS, which may or may not be a problem depending on your game's needs.
Yep, I agree, but they aren't saying it'll happen for sure any more. In fact in a comment Brian Rampgage posted to his TSE Milestone 4 plan says:
I think its great they are being that honest about the situation, even if it isn't trending the way I'd like to see it go. It is GG's business decision to make. We as their customers can only give them our feedback and vote with our wallets which is why I've chosen to not purchase TGEA until it is at least ported to OpenGL on Mac.
11/17/2006 (9:40 am)
Yeah, I can understand the business side of things for GG, but I was disappointed by the change in status of linux. To be fair though, they worked hard with Ron Y. and other members of the linux community to try to release 1.4.2 for linux first.As for hlsl2glsl, I saw the news article about it posted at opengl.org, but didn't follow up on it. I assume it only translates the shader code and doesn't do DirectX -> OpenGL translation. I would expect the number of lines and complexity of shader code is dwarfed by the number of lines and files of/containing DirectX code.
I recall seeing the term TGEA for the first time a few weeks ago. I think it was in a GG'er .plan/blog.
With TLK integrated into 1.5 now, you can get some pretty decent visuals. If you add resources like CG Dynamic Gamma & Water Upgrade, you're getting even better renders from TGE. At this point, one is mostly just missing ATLAS, which may or may not be a problem depending on your game's needs.
Quote:
Berserk: Regarding TSE on Linux, I trust GG if they say it will be done.
Yep, I agree, but they aren't saying it'll happen for sure any more. In fact in a comment Brian Rampgage posted to his TSE Milestone 4 plan says:
Quote:
I'm 90% sure we're going to have OpenGL in TSE. That's the way it's looking right now, but every time I say something like this, things shift internally, so I can't go 100%. It is a pretty high priority though.
I think its great they are being that honest about the situation, even if it isn't trending the way I'd like to see it go. It is GG's business decision to make. We as their customers can only give them our feedback and vote with our wallets which is why I've chosen to not purchase TGEA until it is at least ported to OpenGL on Mac.
#11
I'm disappointed in the about-face but in retrospect it was pretty obvious it was coming. I'm not anticipating ever seeing a release of TSE for linux and mac, anymore. If it *does* get released I'll be in the streets cheering :-)
Gary (-;
11/17/2006 (11:34 am)
I purchased TSE back when it was garaunteed that there would be linux and mac ports, because that way I saved myself a hundred bucks [or whatever it was].I'm disappointed in the about-face but in retrospect it was pretty obvious it was coming. I'm not anticipating ever seeing a release of TSE for linux and mac, anymore. If it *does* get released I'll be in the streets cheering :-)
Gary (-;
#12
11/17/2006 (12:18 pm)
I'm sure that eventually it will make it to Linux. There are just too many of us with that interest for it not to. even if the GG team don't have the immediate time to do so, (Which is understandable. They have a lot of their table) the nice aspect of a project like this is that more than likely someone will do it for them.
#13
This is a very incorrect statement. TSE supports HLSL making it very easy to write and test shaders. TGE even with these few upgrades is no where near TSE. Plus in all honesty CG has many problems of its own. HLSL is still vastly superior to CG.
11/17/2006 (12:51 pm)
Quote:If you add resources like CG Dynamic Gamma & Water Upgrade, you're getting even better renders from TGE. At this point, one is mostly just missing ATLAS, which may or may not be a problem depending on your game's needs.
This is a very incorrect statement. TSE supports HLSL making it very easy to write and test shaders. TGE even with these few upgrades is no where near TSE. Plus in all honesty CG has many problems of its own. HLSL is still vastly superior to CG.
#14
Except that HLSL is windows only making it completely contrary to the conversation here. You have to remember that we're discussing TGE or TSE in a Linux Enviroment.
He was offering suggestions in improving the renders within a Linux enviroment.
11/17/2006 (12:55 pm)
Quote:This is a very incorrect statement. TSE supports HLSL making it very easy to write and test shaders. TGE even with these few upgrades is no where near TSE. Plus in all honesty CG has many problems of its own. HLSL is still vastly superior to CG.
Except that HLSL is windows only making it completely contrary to the conversation here. You have to remember that we're discussing TGE or TSE in a Linux Enviroment.
He was offering suggestions in improving the renders within a Linux enviroment.
#15
11/17/2006 (12:58 pm)
I'm merely saying CG support is very subpar. If you're serious about adding shader support while being multi-platform some sort of GLSL integration is needed.
#16
11/17/2006 (1:07 pm)
Definately. My stance has always been the conversion of HLSL to GLSL. Requires more work. But thats what we do, right?
#17
11/17/2006 (1:11 pm)
That's not exactly what I'm saying. I love HLSL. I think it's a fairly easy language to learn and OpenGL support is not something I'd really care about in TSE. All I mean to say is if one is to add shaders to TGE they'd be better off integrating GLSL instead of CG.
#18
I don't know, are there really that many of us ? I know there are enough of us to keep a community supported TGE alive. Beyond that though, I'm not so sure.
According to Stephen Zepp in the Linux Collaboration thread:
I don't know exactly which sales are being talked about, so I have to assume all sales. The implication though is that GG knows, or at least thinks, there aren't many of us. I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that the evidence they have is telling them that.
Many, maybe even most, of the games available from GG aren't available for linux, even those built with TGE. If a significant portion of the sales numbers mentioned in the quote above are from game sales, we are sort of left with a chicken and egg thing. I do realize this isn't the entire reason behind lack of linux sales, but I do believe it has an affect on them.
I know I haven't bought any games from GG, so I'm not helping them paint a different picture. I'd like to buy a couple of the games here, but the only ones I have much interest in at the moment aren't available for linux. Yeah, I could buy the windoze version, but I grew tired of that route long ago.
I do think that part of our problem here is visibility. Since this is a business decision on GG's part, and on the part of other makers of games, we need to make them see us somehow. The best way to do that is to buy their linux games or other linux based products. Most companies will hear the sound of the cash register. If they don't have products for linux, let them know you want them, but don't expect them to jump just because you say so.
11/17/2006 (1:57 pm)
Quote:
James: I'm sure that eventually it will make it to Linux. There are just too many of us with that interest for it not to.
I don't know, are there really that many of us ? I know there are enough of us to keep a community supported TGE alive. Beyond that though, I'm not so sure.
According to Stephen Zepp in the Linux Collaboration thread:
Quote:(two posts by Stephen quoted and some stuff left out because it isn't pertinent to the discussion)
..... to successfully produce a timely linux release, and then it still would only be < 10% of our total sales .......... And as an fyi, linux sales are much less than 10 percent of total sales. People much smarter than I (Jeff Tunnell, Mark F, Josh W, and a host of others who's job it is to make these decisions) determined we cannot economically support linux as a primary support platform.
I don't know exactly which sales are being talked about, so I have to assume all sales. The implication though is that GG knows, or at least thinks, there aren't many of us. I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that the evidence they have is telling them that.
Many, maybe even most, of the games available from GG aren't available for linux, even those built with TGE. If a significant portion of the sales numbers mentioned in the quote above are from game sales, we are sort of left with a chicken and egg thing. I do realize this isn't the entire reason behind lack of linux sales, but I do believe it has an affect on them.
I know I haven't bought any games from GG, so I'm not helping them paint a different picture. I'd like to buy a couple of the games here, but the only ones I have much interest in at the moment aren't available for linux. Yeah, I could buy the windoze version, but I grew tired of that route long ago.
I do think that part of our problem here is visibility. Since this is a business decision on GG's part, and on the part of other makers of games, we need to make them see us somehow. The best way to do that is to buy their linux games or other linux based products. Most companies will hear the sound of the cash register. If they don't have products for linux, let them know you want them, but don't expect them to jump just because you say so.
#19
When I say that I foresee it eventually reaching linux I don't mean I foresee GG being the ones to make it. One way or another I bet that it will make its way there. But it could just as easily be done by one of the Torque Developers.
11/17/2006 (2:01 pm)
Oh I wouldn't argue that. I know that personally My development group does plan on having a linux release of our game platform. If that requires a little extra work to get the graphics we want out of it. So be it. We'll put in the extra work.When I say that I foresee it eventually reaching linux I don't mean I foresee GG being the ones to make it. One way or another I bet that it will make its way there. But it could just as easily be done by one of the Torque Developers.
#20
There is a reason it has been delayed, and I bet one of them is that adding OpenGL to TGEA (or any engine that already has another rendering pipeline) is not a walk in the park. No matter how much you layerize, there are still some fundamental differences that needs to be taken care of.
11/17/2006 (2:10 pm)
Quote:
But it could just as easily be done by one of the Torque Developers.
There is a reason it has been delayed, and I bet one of them is that adding OpenGL to TGEA (or any engine that already has another rendering pipeline) is not a walk in the park. No matter how much you layerize, there are still some fundamental differences that needs to be taken care of.
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
If crossplatform was my thing (and it is, I just happened to buy TGEA back when OpenGL was one of the Milestones) I would wait until I knew it was coming.