Is it possible to break into the indie market?
by David Snelson-Smith · in General Discussion · 11/04/2006 (3:15 pm) · 25 replies
Hello:
I, like a lot of people, am trying to break into the indie market. The big problem is "time" (which often equates to money) As a software engineer, I know how long it takes to develop a marketable application. By the time you are finished, someone else has something better already out there.
A professional, polished game requires more than a typical application. There are many more talents involved (not counting the business side): programmers, artists, composers, and musicians. Then, let's say you have the money to support this kind of group -- you still need to market it or find a company willing to publish it.
But, what if there was a way to pull these talents together to create a game and a business model in place where everyone shares in the profits. This, of course, assumes there's a great marketing plan in place -- which is the driving force behind the sales.
I have an idea for the marketing plan, but wonder if anyone has heard of such groups being formed? If so, are any of them successful? If not, would anyone be interested in discussing the possibilities?
I, like a lot of people, am trying to break into the indie market. The big problem is "time" (which often equates to money) As a software engineer, I know how long it takes to develop a marketable application. By the time you are finished, someone else has something better already out there.
A professional, polished game requires more than a typical application. There are many more talents involved (not counting the business side): programmers, artists, composers, and musicians. Then, let's say you have the money to support this kind of group -- you still need to market it or find a company willing to publish it.
But, what if there was a way to pull these talents together to create a game and a business model in place where everyone shares in the profits. This, of course, assumes there's a great marketing plan in place -- which is the driving force behind the sales.
I have an idea for the marketing plan, but wonder if anyone has heard of such groups being formed? If so, are any of them successful? If not, would anyone be interested in discussing the possibilities?
#2
11/04/2006 (4:49 pm)
Do you know what some of the causes were behind their collapse? I agree the direct cause is probably lack of commitment. Normally, I find business models collapse because they lack a business or marketing plan.
#3
11/04/2006 (5:53 pm)
Well if you have finance, the very type of people you have on your team are different than those on a volunteer basis. That is not saying that every team without finance is full of wanna bees, some very talented people are out there.
#4
But financing, of course, means work-for-hire and ownership of the game goes to the investors. As a software engineer, I've been down that road all my life -- paid once to build it while the investors get paid each time someone buys the product.
I'm sure there are talented people vying for the chance to build something in which they retain ownership. We're seeing it happen in other industries, including software development. With today's tools, it is possible.
The problem is finding the "very talented people" you are referring who meet this criteria. Unfortunately, it means weeding through the wannabees to find this talent. Trial and error would be too problematic for a business -- and this may be the very cause of the collapse.
11/04/2006 (11:30 pm)
Good point. But financing, of course, means work-for-hire and ownership of the game goes to the investors. As a software engineer, I've been down that road all my life -- paid once to build it while the investors get paid each time someone buys the product.
I'm sure there are talented people vying for the chance to build something in which they retain ownership. We're seeing it happen in other industries, including software development. With today's tools, it is possible.
The problem is finding the "very talented people" you are referring who meet this criteria. Unfortunately, it means weeding through the wannabees to find this talent. Trial and error would be too problematic for a business -- and this may be the very cause of the collapse.
#5
If you actually _can_ pull in some good guys. Then what? Spend 1 year with 3-4 paid ppl on a game that maybe brings in $20k for splitting? Not enough to pay for much besides beer friday night
There are absolutely no guarantee about income from the game you produce. It gets better if you have a track record, but even then there is no guarantee.
And then you got the problem, that most talented people are not hanging around waiting for others to let them join their game. They are doing their own games, or doing contract work.
Best thing - start small, get a track record, prove you can make games and then maybe you have a chance of attracting someone talented.
One of the things I think is the biggest problem regarding the collapses, are that newbie teams try to make things like WoW 2 or Far Cry etc. Its never going to happen - even for talented indies its impossible.
So right size your projects and do something small!
11/05/2006 (4:52 am)
Well - there is also the business model itself.If you actually _can_ pull in some good guys. Then what? Spend 1 year with 3-4 paid ppl on a game that maybe brings in $20k for splitting? Not enough to pay for much besides beer friday night
There are absolutely no guarantee about income from the game you produce. It gets better if you have a track record, but even then there is no guarantee.
And then you got the problem, that most talented people are not hanging around waiting for others to let them join their game. They are doing their own games, or doing contract work.
Best thing - start small, get a track record, prove you can make games and then maybe you have a chance of attracting someone talented.
One of the things I think is the biggest problem regarding the collapses, are that newbie teams try to make things like WoW 2 or Far Cry etc. Its never going to happen - even for talented indies its impossible.
So right size your projects and do something small!
#6
The business model is the important key.
Here's where I'm coming from: I've partnered with some folks for some other non-game-related projects. They are artists, musicians, songwirters, and authors. All have been doing this for some time. The musicians and songwriters, for example, have works that have been on the hit charts or won awards or toured with some big names. The author (only one at this time) has two published books.
We sat around chatting about how we've watched our works make millions for others, while we garner a decent wage -- but wonder why we're not getting the millions off of our ideas. One project I was working on is now sells for six-digits each by IBM -- I got shafted when IBM bought the product -- that's a long story for another time.
The topic of our discussion was: how do we build something for ourselves and share the profits amongst us instead of investors who couldn't create their way out of a paper bag?
So, that's how the game idea as a research concept came into being. What if we could build a game based on a story and characters created by our author with music composed and performed by award-winning musicians and containing artwork by award-winning artists. What if this game could be cross marketed with several products produced by this same talented team (Music CD, Books, Graphical Novels, feature animations, online interactive stories, etc) and marketed via a veteran entertainment promoter?
In other words, the game would be an integral part of a group of products, not THE product.
And everyone shares in the profits of the business. It would not be a game business: it would be an entertainment business.
The only missing part of this equation at the moment is an experienced game developer.
11/05/2006 (9:34 pm)
Good points.The business model is the important key.
Here's where I'm coming from: I've partnered with some folks for some other non-game-related projects. They are artists, musicians, songwirters, and authors. All have been doing this for some time. The musicians and songwriters, for example, have works that have been on the hit charts or won awards or toured with some big names. The author (only one at this time) has two published books.
We sat around chatting about how we've watched our works make millions for others, while we garner a decent wage -- but wonder why we're not getting the millions off of our ideas. One project I was working on is now sells for six-digits each by IBM -- I got shafted when IBM bought the product -- that's a long story for another time.
The topic of our discussion was: how do we build something for ourselves and share the profits amongst us instead of investors who couldn't create their way out of a paper bag?
So, that's how the game idea as a research concept came into being. What if we could build a game based on a story and characters created by our author with music composed and performed by award-winning musicians and containing artwork by award-winning artists. What if this game could be cross marketed with several products produced by this same talented team (Music CD, Books, Graphical Novels, feature animations, online interactive stories, etc) and marketed via a veteran entertainment promoter?
In other words, the game would be an integral part of a group of products, not THE product.
And everyone shares in the profits of the business. It would not be a game business: it would be an entertainment business.
The only missing part of this equation at the moment is an experienced game developer.
#8
There are also music sites devoted to selling indie music where the musician retains the rights to his music.
So basically what your after is a company that does the same thing for indie gamers, A company that will make complete packages for you and has an in with some of the big computer game retailers both online and off to give your game a boost.
I don't think it's entierly bad to have companies that buy the rights to your game pay you to make it so you have guaranteed money and then they take the risk on if it makes a profit or not, if it makes a big profit you lose out if it doesn't you win. But there are some companies that are very bad with it, and IBM has been notorious for milking people for everything they got and making it big off those ideas.
Now what your suggesting isn't like the book example I gave you seem to be talking about a community of indies who lend their skills to different projects and all make a percentage of the profits given how much they added. This would mean you would need this company to still have a management system and this company would have to handle all sales and then distribute the profits to the right people (this is the only system I can think of where you don't risk someone getting screwed and ending up in court for years) So now that company has to get paid. But you'd have to make sure the people in the management got a set pay check instead of profit sharing or you'd be back on the track of losing out on profits. The problem comes with the fact the management can't get paid until there's games making money. Starting a bussiness out this way could be very tricky and would have to be done exctly right in order for it to make it. But there's so many details with it, when a game is released who takes care of it, they whole community or do you set up a main group for each game for the main people working on it and they now have to take care of bugs etc upon release. In a community of this nature how do you prevent other companies from pretending to be with the group in order to steal code/ideas/art and changing them all enough to be legal and then beating you to the release? It would be a tricky company but would be amazing if it worked
Now I posted this part in another topic but this place seems more fitting, how hard is it to survive as an indie gamer if your doing the TGB, you can make games on there with 1-2 man teams the time factor is normally in months for getting a game out. So how hard is it to make a living off those? if you managed to make $10 profit for yourself (after whatever publishers fees/portal fees) per game you'd only need to sell 5000 to make a decent living, that is sell the game to 1000th of 1 percent of the US population. So now let's say you can get 2 games out in a 12 month period each game would only have to sell 2500 copies each, I think that's a realistic goal isn't it?
11/13/2006 (8:09 am)
Well first off, for the author in your group, there are a couple publishing companies, one I know is very legit and good. Who will print your books for you, you own 100% of the rights of the book and you make 100% of the profits they will take your book and print it, you order copies from them and then sell them for however much you want, they will also get your book put on Amazon and they have some deals where they will also edit your work for you (you agree or disagree to each change so it's in your control) they will make a professional cover and get those reviews printed on them, you don't have to take any of these options but they are there. So he has optionsThere are also music sites devoted to selling indie music where the musician retains the rights to his music.
So basically what your after is a company that does the same thing for indie gamers, A company that will make complete packages for you and has an in with some of the big computer game retailers both online and off to give your game a boost.
I don't think it's entierly bad to have companies that buy the rights to your game pay you to make it so you have guaranteed money and then they take the risk on if it makes a profit or not, if it makes a big profit you lose out if it doesn't you win. But there are some companies that are very bad with it, and IBM has been notorious for milking people for everything they got and making it big off those ideas.
Now what your suggesting isn't like the book example I gave you seem to be talking about a community of indies who lend their skills to different projects and all make a percentage of the profits given how much they added. This would mean you would need this company to still have a management system and this company would have to handle all sales and then distribute the profits to the right people (this is the only system I can think of where you don't risk someone getting screwed and ending up in court for years) So now that company has to get paid. But you'd have to make sure the people in the management got a set pay check instead of profit sharing or you'd be back on the track of losing out on profits. The problem comes with the fact the management can't get paid until there's games making money. Starting a bussiness out this way could be very tricky and would have to be done exctly right in order for it to make it. But there's so many details with it, when a game is released who takes care of it, they whole community or do you set up a main group for each game for the main people working on it and they now have to take care of bugs etc upon release. In a community of this nature how do you prevent other companies from pretending to be with the group in order to steal code/ideas/art and changing them all enough to be legal and then beating you to the release? It would be a tricky company but would be amazing if it worked
Now I posted this part in another topic but this place seems more fitting, how hard is it to survive as an indie gamer if your doing the TGB, you can make games on there with 1-2 man teams the time factor is normally in months for getting a game out. So how hard is it to make a living off those? if you managed to make $10 profit for yourself (after whatever publishers fees/portal fees) per game you'd only need to sell 5000 to make a decent living, that is sell the game to 1000th of 1 percent of the US population. So now let's say you can get 2 games out in a 12 month period each game would only have to sell 2500 copies each, I think that's a realistic goal isn't it?
#9
If you want to go the way you described, you need more than 2 games the first year, unless you can wait for the sales to develop themselves, by cross-selling and stuff like that.
There are two ways : you get yourself a contract for a box-version, with electronic delivery as a bonus, or you focus solely on ESD. The first means you need to be able to handle the paperwork of getting your game on a nice spot on the shelves, make it stay there, and keep the price as high as possible for as long as possible. The latter gives you a longer revenue stream timewise. You don't have to sell your game as 'last month's new game' at half the price because the store has some new stuff coming in, you can delegate much of the marketing decisions to the portals, but you won't sell as many at the beginning.
Tough decision.
11/13/2006 (9:42 am)
Well, one of the Best-selling games to date in the Torque world is Venture Africa. In his post with his Post Mortem, Andy Schatz explains the numbers he was able to sell using his own web site and the game portals combined. He got about 1000. Own shop and game portals combined.If you want to go the way you described, you need more than 2 games the first year, unless you can wait for the sales to develop themselves, by cross-selling and stuff like that.
There are two ways : you get yourself a contract for a box-version, with electronic delivery as a bonus, or you focus solely on ESD. The first means you need to be able to handle the paperwork of getting your game on a nice spot on the shelves, make it stay there, and keep the price as high as possible for as long as possible. The latter gives you a longer revenue stream timewise. You don't have to sell your game as 'last month's new game' at half the price because the store has some new stuff coming in, you can delegate much of the marketing decisions to the portals, but you won't sell as many at the beginning.
Tough decision.
#10
Really? From what data do you derive that statement? Can you provide a link?
11/13/2006 (9:59 am)
>>Well, one of the Best-selling games to date in the Torque world is Venture Africa.Really? From what data do you derive that statement? Can you provide a link?
#11
11/13/2006 (10:13 am)
I'd like to know a source to that statement as well.
#12
An extra thing to take into consideration is that direct sales are significant more money too, and although he said he still gave his publisher a small cut, I think there's probably deals you can get to make any direct sales you do go all to you.
Some of the responses to his blog made it sound like this showed how impossible the indie world is but I think it shows how possible it is, that was their first title and if by pushing the upper bounds meant they had close to 10000 in sales I don't think that's bad at all. Sure for a team of 4-5 guys that probably not livable but the sales will continue and they're going to release another title and keep going from there I'm sure.
I am curious to know of the best performing 2d torque game. I know 2d games can do incredible (bejeweled as everyone knows made popgames a ton) and there's so many of those 2dgame sites out there, does that make it harder or easier to make a profit on 2d games?
11/13/2006 (11:15 am)
I would agree I don't think it's fact that venture africa was the best selling torque made game. However I think you interpretted some of his things incorrectly, he said 344 direct sales and then that he couldn' t say the exact amount of affiliate sales but that his goal was 1000-10000 and he was well above the 1000 then he said with retail sales he was able to push the upper bounds as he put it. So that would show that he was probably over 5000 sales total which was my example number.An extra thing to take into consideration is that direct sales are significant more money too, and although he said he still gave his publisher a small cut, I think there's probably deals you can get to make any direct sales you do go all to you.
Some of the responses to his blog made it sound like this showed how impossible the indie world is but I think it shows how possible it is, that was their first title and if by pushing the upper bounds meant they had close to 10000 in sales I don't think that's bad at all. Sure for a team of 4-5 guys that probably not livable but the sales will continue and they're going to release another title and keep going from there I'm sure.
I am curious to know of the best performing 2d torque game. I know 2d games can do incredible (bejeweled as everyone knows made popgames a ton) and there's so many of those 2dgame sites out there, does that make it harder or easier to make a profit on 2d games?
#13
11/16/2006 (9:15 pm)
We have the book and music publishing covered. The people in both those areas are veterans....just as I am trying to get into the gaming world, they are looking for new ways to push their stories and music....
#14
11/17/2006 (7:05 am)
Switching to selling his music to the gaming world I wouldn't see being hard people truly want good music in their games. As for the author that would be more of a challenge I don't know how many companies higher a professional writer for their storyline, I believe Doom3 did and it did pay off I liked the storyline even if since it is a fps a lot of it doesn't show through while playing.
#15
I use the group system that you speak of and it has worked very well for me. Here are my suggestions:
1) Keep your group Very small and be careful who you bring on. I suggest a maximum of 4 people if you're just getting started.
2) Pay your contractors as much as you can and have them split 10% of the return if and only if they finish their part of the project. (10% may sound tiny, but trust me, after marketing fees, selling fees, and taxes, it's a hefty chunk).
3) Don't try to make Shadow of the Colossus. Start small and nimble... something that players can complete in about 20 hours. If you think this is too small, then build "chapters" that players can download for independent fees.
4) Pay for the work created, not the hours.
5) Don't quit your day job until you've finished that first game.
6) Create a secure, online community where you and your contractors can share resources, chat, and monitor your schedules.
7) Everyone should know who the leader of the project is. Don't try to do a tri-leadership thing. One person should set the direction.
My two cents...
11/27/2006 (4:22 pm)
Of course it's possible to break into the indie market, silly! You just have to be clever about it AND frugal.I use the group system that you speak of and it has worked very well for me. Here are my suggestions:
1) Keep your group Very small and be careful who you bring on. I suggest a maximum of 4 people if you're just getting started.
2) Pay your contractors as much as you can and have them split 10% of the return if and only if they finish their part of the project. (10% may sound tiny, but trust me, after marketing fees, selling fees, and taxes, it's a hefty chunk).
3) Don't try to make Shadow of the Colossus. Start small and nimble... something that players can complete in about 20 hours. If you think this is too small, then build "chapters" that players can download for independent fees.
4) Pay for the work created, not the hours.
5) Don't quit your day job until you've finished that first game.
6) Create a secure, online community where you and your contractors can share resources, chat, and monitor your schedules.
7) Everyone should know who the leader of the project is. Don't try to do a tri-leadership thing. One person should set the direction.
My two cents...
#16
Also, things work much better if you don't work from home (or all work from 1 person's home). If you establish a 9-5 schedule where you're all together and functioning like a company, you'll make a lot more progress and be able to support each other technically and socially.
I'd also like to stress point 7. One leader. Get that straight early on and make sure everyone's good with it before you move on.
11/27/2006 (6:22 pm)
I have to agree on all points with amaranthia. And the unsaid statement there is also "have a budget". Trying to get a team to work without pay is next to impossible unless they all can maintain passion for the project have don't have anything else to occupy their time. A small team may be able to do most of the work but you're more than likely going to need to bring in contractors so you should be prepared to pay them something. You can sometimes get around this by finding students who are willing to create assets for use in their growing portfolios. Just make sure you credit them in your game. Just also remember that more often than not. You get what you pay for.Also, things work much better if you don't work from home (or all work from 1 person's home). If you establish a 9-5 schedule where you're all together and functioning like a company, you'll make a lot more progress and be able to support each other technically and socially.
I'd also like to stress point 7. One leader. Get that straight early on and make sure everyone's good with it before you move on.
#17
I guess the moral of the story is, get a good Game Plan, obtain the contracts you need to make sure that you own the copyright to whatever you produce or at least exclusive right to use it for your game, demos etc. See if you can get an investor, by posting on every avenue you can possibly find where there is good coverage. Its all about opening the doors of opportunity!
I am now on the look out for a second investor, so that I can form a team for the next 5 or 6 ideas I have and bring them into production.
Good Luck.
12/14/2006 (12:05 pm)
I've been quite lucky, and managed to get an investor from ebay of all places, just by the off chance from an idea I had and thought, why not give it a try. I had no real game development or business plan on paper, just the main concept in my head. I quickly put this down, and we negotiated for a few weeks before signing the deal - the end result is that my investor takes a small cut of my company with all risk being theirs. I am a one man team, and I'm no artist, but so far have managed to do a deal with a composer for the title music, working with a few artists to come up with some concept designs on players and objects, design 10 missions, no game play yet - just asset building, with another 4 months of development work at least before I have a complete working FPS game with objectives. I guess the moral of the story is, get a good Game Plan, obtain the contracts you need to make sure that you own the copyright to whatever you produce or at least exclusive right to use it for your game, demos etc. See if you can get an investor, by posting on every avenue you can possibly find where there is good coverage. Its all about opening the doors of opportunity!
I am now on the look out for a second investor, so that I can form a team for the next 5 or 6 ideas I have and bring them into production.
Good Luck.
#18
In light of that, I tend to think of myself as a person who has almost a natural "geeky" tendenacy to just 'feel' weither or not certain projects, aspects/parts of projects, etc are going to succeed. My "chi" has converged with that of the gaming market. This isn't an ego; it's quite sad and it stole my childhood. :)
So far, I have no reason to believe I'm wrong.
ANYWAYS, so many indie projects I take time to research will claim they failed for reason X or reason Y. Personally, I always think it's reason Z.
Z = You set the milestones. You got the right team. You did everything correct EXCEPT: didn't get a person on your team to straight up tell you weither or not something sucks.
Sorry if "sucks" isn't business terminology. Like I said, my history is that of a consumer.
Sure, many of the people on this message board are very educated and talented. Moreso than myself in many, many areas. I envy you all for that.
But I think there is too much stress put on graphics quality, music quality, etc than DESIGN itself.
If you can afford it in your group, locate a person who is just plain consumed with the video game world to give insight on your project, every step of the way.
If you know someone who plays World of Warcraft 24/7, this isn't the kind of person I'm talking about. They are consumed by WoW; not the gaming market.
I'm talking about a person who most likely has a PC w/ games, and at least 2-3 nexgen consoles. And probably spends 2-3 hours of their day on gametrailers.com.
Like I said, I'm just a consumer, maybe my advice is as bogus at half of the breasts in Hollywood. Nevertheless, most 'failed' projects I wish I had the source to because I'd make a handful of gameplay/level design changes and I *know* personally at least 20-30 people that would play it religiously.
/me gets back to reading his C++ for mortals book.
12/18/2006 (2:53 pm)
Keep in mind I am by no means an 'experienced' individual when it comes to business-side matters, but I've been a gaming consumer for years upon years, actually winning tournaments, forming communities, doin' my own half-development in matters such as creating Unreal Tournament levels/scripts, Neverwinter Nights mission packs, etc.. (all which became popular, at least to an extent, and of course 'free').In light of that, I tend to think of myself as a person who has almost a natural "geeky" tendenacy to just 'feel' weither or not certain projects, aspects/parts of projects, etc are going to succeed. My "chi" has converged with that of the gaming market. This isn't an ego; it's quite sad and it stole my childhood. :)
So far, I have no reason to believe I'm wrong.
ANYWAYS, so many indie projects I take time to research will claim they failed for reason X or reason Y. Personally, I always think it's reason Z.
Z = You set the milestones. You got the right team. You did everything correct EXCEPT: didn't get a person on your team to straight up tell you weither or not something sucks.
Sorry if "sucks" isn't business terminology. Like I said, my history is that of a consumer.
Sure, many of the people on this message board are very educated and talented. Moreso than myself in many, many areas. I envy you all for that.
But I think there is too much stress put on graphics quality, music quality, etc than DESIGN itself.
If you can afford it in your group, locate a person who is just plain consumed with the video game world to give insight on your project, every step of the way.
If you know someone who plays World of Warcraft 24/7, this isn't the kind of person I'm talking about. They are consumed by WoW; not the gaming market.
I'm talking about a person who most likely has a PC w/ games, and at least 2-3 nexgen consoles. And probably spends 2-3 hours of their day on gametrailers.com.
Like I said, I'm just a consumer, maybe my advice is as bogus at half of the breasts in Hollywood. Nevertheless, most 'failed' projects I wish I had the source to because I'd make a handful of gameplay/level design changes and I *know* personally at least 20-30 people that would play it religiously.
/me gets back to reading his C++ for mortals book.
#19
The other advice I can offer is to start small. If time is problem for your project, then your project is too big. Your game doesn't need to be "professional, polished," it does need to be original and fun. Start small and have small goals first. Take a look at what we've been publishing lately and what is coming up. Take a look at GameTunnel winners and IGF winners. Many of these are not "polished" but they are original and fun. If you have something original, there is no "someone beating you to it with something more polished" because you're the only one out there with that kind of game. It is AMAZING how fun a small simple original game concept can be. They are often the best kind of games out there.
12/20/2006 (2:07 pm)
Quote:The big problem is "time" (which often equates to money) As a software engineer, I know how long it takes to develop a marketable application. By the time you are finished, someone else has something better already out there. A professional, polished game requires more than a typical application.
The other advice I can offer is to start small. If time is problem for your project, then your project is too big. Your game doesn't need to be "professional, polished," it does need to be original and fun. Start small and have small goals first. Take a look at what we've been publishing lately and what is coming up. Take a look at GameTunnel winners and IGF winners. Many of these are not "polished" but they are original and fun. If you have something original, there is no "someone beating you to it with something more polished" because you're the only one out there with that kind of game. It is AMAZING how fun a small simple original game concept can be. They are often the best kind of games out there.
#20
We used to post our high scores on dialup Builitin boards (I just gave away my age... O.o).
The point here is that DOOM was an indie game that hit the big time through word of mouth. So, if you create a great game that people like they will buy it regardless if it was made by you the indie developer or Sony.
As Josh said, start small and Anything is possible!
Now go build a cool game!
02/06/2007 (2:33 pm)
Hey, remember when the first version of DOOM came out and it was shareware. I think I paid $10.00 bucks for it at a egghead software store. That was one of the first PC FPS games I played (it crashed alot...) and it rocked.We used to post our high scores on dialup Builitin boards (I just gave away my age... O.o).
The point here is that DOOM was an indie game that hit the big time through word of mouth. So, if you create a great game that people like they will buy it regardless if it was made by you the indie developer or Sony.
As Josh said, start small and Anything is possible!
Now go build a cool game!
Torque 3D Owner James Bond