NVIDIA* Poor TGE performance, not limited to 1.5
by Shay Arnett · in Torque Game Engine · 10/26/2006 (7:16 am) · 46 replies
I am experiencing horrible performance in all versions/demos I have tried of TGE.
Builds/Demos I have tried all with similar results.
1.4.2 CVS Build
1.5 Demo
1.4 Demo
TLK Demo
Warzone Demo
Game Demo from Ed's Book
Probably some more that I can't think of right now.
My system specs are:
Pentium D 805 @ 2.66ghz (affinity set to 1 core only when the build doesn't do it on its own)
Nvidia 7600gt pci-x16 256meg (have tried 9x.xx, 8x.xx, 7x.xx forceware drivers)
1 gig DDR2
The only info I can find on the forums note problems with Nvidia and their newer drivers, but the posts are a year or more old. The worst part is my card is ~1year old, and the drivers that they say don't have the performance issues in the forums are 2-3 years old, and won't detect or install with my card. I am going to try some more drivers tonight and see what I can find.
My co-worker Has a P4 3.0Ghz with ATI x850xt and is not experiencing the problems on anything he has tried.
For example in the 1.5 Demo, in the second scene flying over the terrain, he hits around 1200fps at times, I max at about 170fps. Other parts of the demo he is in the 200-400 range for the most part only dropping to double digits in a couple of the scenes. I never get over 100fps when anything other than terrain is rendered.
If anyone else out there with similar problems, or with Nvidia cards could post your system specs/drivers and framerates I would appreciate it.
Builds/Demos I have tried all with similar results.
1.4.2 CVS Build
1.5 Demo
1.4 Demo
TLK Demo
Warzone Demo
Game Demo from Ed's Book
Probably some more that I can't think of right now.
My system specs are:
Pentium D 805 @ 2.66ghz (affinity set to 1 core only when the build doesn't do it on its own)
Nvidia 7600gt pci-x16 256meg (have tried 9x.xx, 8x.xx, 7x.xx forceware drivers)
1 gig DDR2
The only info I can find on the forums note problems with Nvidia and their newer drivers, but the posts are a year or more old. The worst part is my card is ~1year old, and the drivers that they say don't have the performance issues in the forums are 2-3 years old, and won't detect or install with my card. I am going to try some more drivers tonight and see what I can find.
My co-worker Has a P4 3.0Ghz with ATI x850xt and is not experiencing the problems on anything he has tried.
For example in the 1.5 Demo, in the second scene flying over the terrain, he hits around 1200fps at times, I max at about 170fps. Other parts of the demo he is in the 200-400 range for the most part only dropping to double digits in a couple of the scenes. I never get over 100fps when anything other than terrain is rendered.
If anyone else out there with similar problems, or with Nvidia cards could post your system specs/drivers and framerates I would appreciate it.
#3
And John, your post proves exactly what I'm talking about.
A card from 2 generations ago should not outperform a current gen card, and I guarantee any benchmarks we can both run will show that.
Some of the older posts having similar problems with Nvidia were driver related. This is most likely the same issue, but I can't try the drivers that fixed their problems because they are too old to install with my card.
10/26/2006 (5:17 pm)
It doesn't matter if I have nothing running on a fresh reboot or 14 things going.And John, your post proves exactly what I'm talking about.
A card from 2 generations ago should not outperform a current gen card, and I guarantee any benchmarks we can both run will show that.
Some of the older posts having similar problems with Nvidia were driver related. This is most likely the same issue, but I can't try the drivers that fixed their problems because they are too old to install with my card.
#4
**Nvidia 7600gt 256 mb
-5 vertex processors
-12 pixel pipelines
-core clock 560 Mhz.
-mem clock 1400Mhz.
-128 bit memory architecture
**Radeon X850XT 256 mb
-6 vertex processors - 1 more vertex processor
-16 pixel pipelines - 4 more pixel pipelines
-core clock 520 Mhz.
-mem clock 1120 Mhz.
-256 bit memory architecture - twice what the 7600GT has
Those are considerable advantages and the slightly faster core and mem of the 7600GT would have little to no effect over it.
10/26/2006 (5:46 pm)
Actually, the X850XT should outperform the current gen card you are referring to handily.**Nvidia 7600gt 256 mb
-5 vertex processors
-12 pixel pipelines
-core clock 560 Mhz.
-mem clock 1400Mhz.
-128 bit memory architecture
**Radeon X850XT 256 mb
-6 vertex processors - 1 more vertex processor
-16 pixel pipelines - 4 more pixel pipelines
-core clock 520 Mhz.
-mem clock 1120 Mhz.
-256 bit memory architecture - twice what the 7600GT has
Those are considerable advantages and the slightly faster core and mem of the 7600GT would have little to no effect over it.
#5
But since you brought up the specs... should that card outperform mine by 600%??? 1200fps over terrain vs 200?
Any other OpenGL game I play from the same generation as Torque does not show the same issues.
10/26/2006 (5:50 pm)
I was referring to John's card, and him acting like it should be expected for my current gen card to run like crap on an engine thats 2-3 gens old.But since you brought up the specs... should that card outperform mine by 600%??? 1200fps over terrain vs 200?
Any other OpenGL game I play from the same generation as Torque does not show the same issues.
#6
This is most probably the dual core affinity/timing issue, and you may want to try the OEM patch for that.
10/26/2006 (5:58 pm)
I just noticed that while he didn't explicitly say dual core in his original post, he has two cpus.This is most probably the dual core affinity/timing issue, and you may want to try the OEM patch for that.
#7
My card is 6800GS (FYI John, 9600XT cannot outperform 6000 series cards.. and yes, I own 9600XT and was a big fan of it in the past as well), and the only problem I can see is either poor optimization of 1.5 demos (doubt it) or the crappy drivers from nVidia (most likely).
10/26/2006 (6:01 pm)
I think it's the problem with drivers. Even I am experiencing slowdowns in TGE 1.5 demo/SDK (not 1.4).My card is 6800GS (FYI John, 9600XT cannot outperform 6000 series cards.. and yes, I own 9600XT and was a big fan of it in the past as well), and the only problem I can see is either poor optimization of 1.5 demos (doubt it) or the crappy drivers from nVidia (most likely).
#8
10/26/2006 (6:02 pm)
I guess to me, 170 fps seems entirely logical for that card at a decent resolution - and certainly not a horrible fps number at all. More importantly, running the 1.5 demo with metrics(fps) - what is the lowest fps number each of you ever see on your systems. Also, what resolutions are you both running at?
#9
this is my average fps with anything else being rendered. @ 800x600 :0
You can't honestly tell me this is good performance for a current generation video card on TGE.
[EDIT]
I realize this is most likely an Nvidia driver issue, but I can NOT go back to the 4x.xx or even 6x.xx series drivers .. the earliest driver that recognizes my card is 7x.xx which i have tried, along with 8x.xx and 9x.xx(latest)
10/26/2006 (6:27 pm)
The 170fps was only in the second section of the demo where it was flying over the terrain.... with nothing but terrain on screen.this is my average fps with anything else being rendered. @ 800x600 :0
You can't honestly tell me this is good performance for a current generation video card on TGE.
[EDIT]
I realize this is most likely an Nvidia driver issue, but I can NOT go back to the 4x.xx or even 6x.xx series drivers .. the earliest driver that recognizes my card is 7x.xx which i have tried, along with 8x.xx and 9x.xx(latest)
#10
Regarding the x850 -vs- 7600; Kenneth is correct, there's a noticeable difference in those cards in favor of the older ATI. Keep in mind every generation has a range of cards from high-end to low-end. Newer cards do not always yield greater performance.
Also keep in mind that newer cards are becoming more and more optimized for heavier shader processing, which TGE doesn't use
Like I mentioned before, the 1200fps seems very high to me. Was this recorded using Fraps? If not give it a try and see what the fps looks like on both.
10/26/2006 (8:58 pm)
Nikhil, we run heavy performance testing here and my comments are based on our results.Regarding the x850 -vs- 7600; Kenneth is correct, there's a noticeable difference in those cards in favor of the older ATI. Keep in mind every generation has a range of cards from high-end to low-end. Newer cards do not always yield greater performance.
Also keep in mind that newer cards are becoming more and more optimized for heavier shader processing, which TGE doesn't use
Like I mentioned before, the 1200fps seems very high to me. Was this recorded using Fraps? If not give it a try and see what the fps looks like on both.
#11
I'm not upset that my buddy with an x850 is getting better performance than me. The only reason I brought up his system was the fact that his ATI didn't seem to have a problem with torque.
Completely forget about any other video cards for a minute. I'm upset that my current gen video card can't spit out more than 60 fps in Torque. Other opengl engines from the same time period as torque don't have a problem.
I have backed up all my junk and will be reformatting tonight, just to rule out anything else that may have been installed on my system.
There have to be more people on here with 7xxx series Nvidia cards... I would like to know if this is a problem with others as well.
10/27/2006 (5:45 am)
I think you guys are missunderstanding me here. I'm not upset that my buddy with an x850 is getting better performance than me. The only reason I brought up his system was the fact that his ATI didn't seem to have a problem with torque.
Completely forget about any other video cards for a minute. I'm upset that my current gen video card can't spit out more than 60 fps in Torque. Other opengl engines from the same time period as torque don't have a problem.
I have backed up all my junk and will be reformatting tonight, just to rule out anything else that may have been installed on my system.
There have to be more people on here with 7xxx series Nvidia cards... I would like to know if this is a problem with others as well.
#12
The 9700 draws at 65ish FPS, and the rest around 230-333. Making sure our boxes are working correctly before pointing any fingers is a given, though. :p
Oh and: We use older drivers on the 6800 or the 7300LE.
10/27/2006 (6:06 am)
Not sure what you consider good fps. At our test sessions, we play around with 6800, 7300LE, x850 and a 9700.The 9700 draws at 65ish FPS, and the rest around 230-333. Making sure our boxes are working correctly before pointing any fingers is a given, though. :p
Oh and: We use older drivers on the 6800 or the 7300LE.
#13
and 230-333 would still be a little lower than what I would expect on an older engine, but would be much more acceptable than 50
10/27/2006 (6:18 am)
What driver are you running on the 7300LE, It should be new enough to support my card aswell, I would like to try it out when I reformat.and 230-333 would still be a little lower than what I would expect on an older engine, but would be much more acceptable than 50
#14
I would LOVE to find out that I'm just seeing strange results due to a setup problem, but everything else is running normally given other dual core fixes for other programs.
edit: By waiting I don't mean my development is waiting, I'm busy as a beaver on art, models, animations, scripting, etc..
10/27/2006 (6:23 am)
Dual 7800 gt's in SLI, latest drivers, and dual core cpu, I've tried every dual cpu fix i can find and I'm still not getting framerates that make sense. I'm kind of waiting to see what Garage Games officially recomends to remedy the dual cpu issues. I never stopped to think that maybe it Torque wasnt liking my Nvidia cards, but it doesnt seem to be running better in SLI than it did with one card, I dont have any ATI's to test this against tho. In the new demo I'm seeing 40-100 FPS average, ~200 in the terrain fly-through, and all the way down to ~30 fps in the mirror scene, and the storm scene. I would LOVE to find out that I'm just seeing strange results due to a setup problem, but everything else is running normally given other dual core fixes for other programs.
edit: By waiting I don't mean my development is waiting, I'm busy as a beaver on art, models, animations, scripting, etc..
#15
We had alot of BSOD's (in any application) that was pointing at nv4disp.dll so we replaced with an older driver. Not sure which (I'm at home), but I found it by searching the net - probably some tweaking site I'm sure.
I'm not sure why you think that an older engine equals more FPS. Older engines use techniques that are not too common today and thus GPU's are not always optimized to handle such situations well, but still come off as a little bit faster.
The original HalfLife engine is a fine example, Quake 2 is not - but that's one of the few exceptions I know.
10/27/2006 (6:29 am)
Quote:
What driver are you running on the 7300LE, It should be new enough to support my card aswell, I would like to try it out when I reformat.
We had alot of BSOD's (in any application) that was pointing at nv4disp.dll so we replaced with an older driver. Not sure which (I'm at home), but I found it by searching the net - probably some tweaking site I'm sure.
Quote:
and 230-333 would still be a little lower than what I would expect on an older engine, but would be much more acceptable than 50
I'm not sure why you think that an older engine equals more FPS. Older engines use techniques that are not too common today and thus GPU's are not always optimized to handle such situations well, but still come off as a little bit faster.
The original HalfLife engine is a fine example, Quake 2 is not - but that's one of the few exceptions I know.
#16
Just a side note, Intel Integrated gets 20 fps on the same scene I screenshotted, and I find it hard to believe that my 7600gt can only double that performance, and Jeff's Dual 7800's add no more than mine...
10/27/2006 (6:32 am)
Sounds identical to my framerates. Thanks for the info.Just a side note, Intel Integrated gets 20 fps on the same scene I screenshotted, and I find it hard to believe that my 7600gt can only double that performance, and Jeff's Dual 7800's add no more than mine...
#17
10/27/2006 (6:36 am)
As another example, I get higher FPS in TSE than TGE - eventho TGE is older by 8 years or so.
#18
I am also happy with the performance in TSE, if it was more stable I would be deving on it and not have this issue.
This problem affects all developers using TGE right now. Dual Core processors, and shader video cards are becoming more and more common. What are you going to tell your users when they can't play your game smoothly? Upgrade to some out-dated hardware and you'll be just fine!! I'm sure they will love that.
10/27/2006 (6:44 am)
@Stefan the reason I said that about older engines, is that anything else that I can get my hands on that is opengl and from around the same time (so they are using similar calls) performs 1000% better.I am also happy with the performance in TSE, if it was more stable I would be deving on it and not have this issue.
This problem affects all developers using TGE right now. Dual Core processors, and shader video cards are becoming more and more common. What are you going to tell your users when they can't play your game smoothly? Upgrade to some out-dated hardware and you'll be just fine!! I'm sure they will love that.
#19
10/27/2006 (7:04 am)
I'm really happy with the various flavors of torque I have and I'm sure as long as garage games is aware of issues, they'll get around to helping us, if they had an immediate answer I'm sure they would be happy to give it as it would only improve their products, and this is a great community where you'll find help often comes from other users. GG manages alot with all their different engines, and other projects they're involved in, think about how busy you are with just your own projects.
#20
First there are a lof of things that affect performance, most of it revolves around the art rendering, model set up, texture sizes, types of texture, LOD, particles, etc. etc. The next thing that needs to be considered is this is a demo and there is going to be a lot of shiny things that GG wants to show off, thus creating a lot of overhead you would not find in a standard level. Lastly the human eye can only process 30 FPS.
Everything is a balancing act when a game or demo is created, the scene in the screen shot has a lot of things going on, thus reducing FPS.
10/27/2006 (8:01 am)
I think performance needs to be put in perspective....First there are a lof of things that affect performance, most of it revolves around the art rendering, model set up, texture sizes, types of texture, LOD, particles, etc. etc. The next thing that needs to be considered is this is a demo and there is going to be a lot of shiny things that GG wants to show off, thus creating a lot of overhead you would not find in a standard level. Lastly the human eye can only process 30 FPS.
Everything is a balancing act when a game or demo is created, the scene in the screen shot has a lot of things going on, thus reducing FPS.
Torque Owner John Kabus (BobTheCBuilder)
As an example I'm running an ATI 9600XT (three years old or more) in my primary workstation. It's not the top of its generation, but it out performs the (relatively) newer nVidia 6000 series, and the mid to low end of the nVidia 7000 and ATI x1000 series (it completely smokes the x1400 we have in house).