MMO rpg/fps with mmo kit
by Brian Irvin · in Jobs · 10/16/2006 (1:10 pm) · 78 replies
I am looking for programmers for a mmo game using dreamers mmokit "www.mydreamrpg.com". So far i havent had time to sit down and mess with it to see what needs to be added and if anything needs to be taken out. I have1 modeler helping me with models, and 1 or 2 others willing to help with programming when they can. I would like everyone to be regestered users of mmo kit which requires the tge. All people will receive a full version of the game and free play while others will possibly charge $5 a month which is considerably cheaper than others, and all who help will receive equal shares of proffets. I have one server that i can start with. Unfortunatly until publish i cannot pay anyone sorry but money doesnt grow on trees and im still working on my 2 degrees
Basicly my game will be some what like star wars galaxies however more fps oriented. There will still be skills and abilites that will be learned, along with crafting. I would like to incorperate the ability to use a head set or mic and speakers to talk to other player or using standar mmo chating. The voice will play a key role during space flight and in-planetary flight. This is lacking in galaxies which would be a big help when flying.
on a final note you can see part of my "rough draft desiign doc" if ud like to see the full rough draft design doc please post your email and ill send it to you any help would be apreciated to make my dream come true.
Basicly my game will be some what like star wars galaxies however more fps oriented. There will still be skills and abilites that will be learned, along with crafting. I would like to incorperate the ability to use a head set or mic and speakers to talk to other player or using standar mmo chating. The voice will play a key role during space flight and in-planetary flight. This is lacking in galaxies which would be a big help when flying.
on a final note you can see part of my "rough draft desiign doc" if ud like to see the full rough draft design doc please post your email and ill send it to you any help would be apreciated to make my dream come true.
About the author
#22
And to relate it to gamedev for "something to try", you should look at particle effects.
10/17/2006 (10:13 am)
Yes. It takes a huge amount of fuel to break the atmosphere. And an amazing amount of speed. Of course, it is not as fast as having a little help from gravity. I believe NASA has several videos dedicated to clearing the atmosphere available. You can see the breaking tracers as it clears.And to relate it to gamedev for "something to try", you should look at particle effects.
#23
And David are you a programmers i could use one desperatly. I understand that you will probaly want ot wait tell i have the design document revised and finished which is fine. Just figured id ask.
10/17/2006 (10:20 am)
He he he i wander why Allyn Mcelrath, Peter Simard, and Matt Kronyak havent posted any more guess yall ran them away mwhahahaha thanks lol.And David are you a programmers i could use one desperatly. I understand that you will probaly want ot wait tell i have the design document revised and finished which is fine. Just figured id ask.
#24
EDIT:
And as to why they haven't responded, I would think that it is not because they were chased off, but because they said their piece. MMO's are hard. 99.99% of every dream MMO that I have ever caught a wiff of on indie boards have died a silent death as the team filters away to other projects or go back to being gamers because they realize that development wasn't fun for them, etc. I would even venture to say that the vast majority of big-scale MMO's never hit the market. If we hear about them, often they get cancelled, but how many are sitting on the cutting room floor because the companies knew that they most likely would not have a ROI in the next few years. I'm not speaking for the ones who haven't "come back" to the topic. Rather, I'm guessing that it was because they've had their say and that's pretty much it. they have bigger and better things to do now than discuss MMO's with someone still compiling the basics of a design document.
I, on the other hand, am waiting for a lab to restore at work. My post output is often directly related to whether I am restoring computer labs or not (or installing XP or Visual Studio on a configuration).
10/17/2006 (10:31 am)
I am a programmer, but remember back when I said not to advertise yourself if you do not have the time, experience, etc to fulfill the needs of others? Right now I have absolutely no time. I barely have time for my prototyping my pet project, and in the last couple of weeks haven't even had time for that.EDIT:
And as to why they haven't responded, I would think that it is not because they were chased off, but because they said their piece. MMO's are hard. 99.99% of every dream MMO that I have ever caught a wiff of on indie boards have died a silent death as the team filters away to other projects or go back to being gamers because they realize that development wasn't fun for them, etc. I would even venture to say that the vast majority of big-scale MMO's never hit the market. If we hear about them, often they get cancelled, but how many are sitting on the cutting room floor because the companies knew that they most likely would not have a ROI in the next few years. I'm not speaking for the ones who haven't "come back" to the topic. Rather, I'm guessing that it was because they've had their say and that's pretty much it. they have bigger and better things to do now than discuss MMO's with someone still compiling the basics of a design document.
I, on the other hand, am waiting for a lab to restore at work. My post output is often directly related to whether I am restoring computer labs or not (or installing XP or Visual Studio on a configuration).
#25
10/17/2006 (12:22 pm)
Now that you say that I do recall someone saying they could probaly help if they had some time not sure if it was you or not.
#26
10/17/2006 (1:11 pm)
My post wans't a flame, im sorry you took it that way.
#27
10/17/2006 (1:22 pm)
Yea your right Allyn realy it is I who should apologize for judgeing you, but yes i know how dificult it is. 
#28
I didn't run away nor was I attacking you. If you were offended by those brief initial comments then you may be too sensitive. I wish you luck running any kind of community-based service (forum, website, MMO, or whatever it may be). When you run any kind of service that exceeds say, 50 people, you, your team, your product, you work and anything else you can think of will be subject to constant attacks and complaints (founded in fact or not). Even if you do create a complete game, managing it is another story. Any kind of "MMO" is ultimately going to be a "service" and you have to be able to deal with your customers. If you are getting paid for the service you are providing, the way you deal with them will be significantly different from the way you deal with people you are providing a free service to as a hobby.
The reason I asked if you were serious was because you have made nearly identical threads for the past several days. I have talked with several other members of this community, many of whom I had never worked with or spoken with prior to the past 2 or 3 weeks, and strangely many people recognize and openly discuss these threads. Outside of the forum, the general feeling among people (at least those I have talked to) is that you are joking around. I asked if you were serious since many people think you are not, even if they are not posting here.
I also agree with the sentiment of some that we shouldn't bash each other's ideas. I have seen many negative comments made about people's projects, ideas or questions over the past several months and others I have talked to from this community have noticed the same. That being said, there are many times where such comments are baseless or unwarranted. Other times, like this specific thread, you have to wonder what is going on. When you look at Brian's thread history, every thread he has posted in was started by him. He is almost always trying to recruit people to a new project that changes completely from day to day (one day it's an MMO, the next game it's an FPS, the next something else).
People have been more than willing to help, and I would certainly help anyone that I can when I have time (and have tried to do so on several occasions, both in the forums but especially outside of them), but there comes a point you where can't expect everyone else to do all of your work for you. If you have absolutely no skills, you need to start somewhere and start learning on your own, or maybe try to join one of the other teams looking for volunteers and learn from that experience.
@Christian S
I am certainly not bashing the "MMO" crowd. I personally think persistent online RPGs are among the easiest type of games to make. I have run and modified many MUDs, UO servers and a highly customized NWN server over the past two decades as hobby projects. I've also designed (from the ground up in many cases) and developed many enterprise database applications, some of which are handling millions of transactions per day for my "day job". Games like Gemstone III, Minions of Mirth, hundreds of MUDs, emulated servers and so on have shown that creating persistent multiplayer games is definitely possible with small teams.
Everyone has a dream project but very few act on those dreams. That is the major difference between those who achieve something and those who don't. You have to take action at some point. Even if you fail you will learn from those experiences. If you stop trying, or worse yet never try at all, you are doomed to failure.
In any real development environment there is no perfect design document, there is no perfect plan and no matter what contingencies you have in place, things will go wrong and things will change. You can adapt or perish. In the end, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter if your game is programmed or designed to perfection or optimal efficiency. If it works and people play it and it is fun, it is more valuable and more legitimate than things that only exist in paper or in your mind.
In closing, my advice to Brian and others like him is to get off your butt and do something. Even if you don't know how, get out there and make mistakes and figure it out. Don't let detractors tarnish your ideas but don't expect someone else to make your dream come true for you either. You have the tools now make it work!
10/17/2006 (3:35 pm)
@Brian IrvinI didn't run away nor was I attacking you. If you were offended by those brief initial comments then you may be too sensitive. I wish you luck running any kind of community-based service (forum, website, MMO, or whatever it may be). When you run any kind of service that exceeds say, 50 people, you, your team, your product, you work and anything else you can think of will be subject to constant attacks and complaints (founded in fact or not). Even if you do create a complete game, managing it is another story. Any kind of "MMO" is ultimately going to be a "service" and you have to be able to deal with your customers. If you are getting paid for the service you are providing, the way you deal with them will be significantly different from the way you deal with people you are providing a free service to as a hobby.
The reason I asked if you were serious was because you have made nearly identical threads for the past several days. I have talked with several other members of this community, many of whom I had never worked with or spoken with prior to the past 2 or 3 weeks, and strangely many people recognize and openly discuss these threads. Outside of the forum, the general feeling among people (at least those I have talked to) is that you are joking around. I asked if you were serious since many people think you are not, even if they are not posting here.
I also agree with the sentiment of some that we shouldn't bash each other's ideas. I have seen many negative comments made about people's projects, ideas or questions over the past several months and others I have talked to from this community have noticed the same. That being said, there are many times where such comments are baseless or unwarranted. Other times, like this specific thread, you have to wonder what is going on. When you look at Brian's thread history, every thread he has posted in was started by him. He is almost always trying to recruit people to a new project that changes completely from day to day (one day it's an MMO, the next game it's an FPS, the next something else).
People have been more than willing to help, and I would certainly help anyone that I can when I have time (and have tried to do so on several occasions, both in the forums but especially outside of them), but there comes a point you where can't expect everyone else to do all of your work for you. If you have absolutely no skills, you need to start somewhere and start learning on your own, or maybe try to join one of the other teams looking for volunteers and learn from that experience.
@Christian S
I am certainly not bashing the "MMO" crowd. I personally think persistent online RPGs are among the easiest type of games to make. I have run and modified many MUDs, UO servers and a highly customized NWN server over the past two decades as hobby projects. I've also designed (from the ground up in many cases) and developed many enterprise database applications, some of which are handling millions of transactions per day for my "day job". Games like Gemstone III, Minions of Mirth, hundreds of MUDs, emulated servers and so on have shown that creating persistent multiplayer games is definitely possible with small teams.
Everyone has a dream project but very few act on those dreams. That is the major difference between those who achieve something and those who don't. You have to take action at some point. Even if you fail you will learn from those experiences. If you stop trying, or worse yet never try at all, you are doomed to failure.
In any real development environment there is no perfect design document, there is no perfect plan and no matter what contingencies you have in place, things will go wrong and things will change. You can adapt or perish. In the end, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter if your game is programmed or designed to perfection or optimal efficiency. If it works and people play it and it is fun, it is more valuable and more legitimate than things that only exist in paper or in your mind.
In closing, my advice to Brian and others like him is to get off your butt and do something. Even if you don't know how, get out there and make mistakes and figure it out. Don't let detractors tarnish your ideas but don't expect someone else to make your dream come true for you either. You have the tools now make it work!
#29
Yet when i changed to the tatical fps idea no programmers volunteered so here i am back at the mmo game since its the one that i actualy got some actual posts WILLING I say again WILLING to take what free time they have or want to dedicate to my project so here i am doing one of the hardest things to do and damnit im sure the hell am not going to give up.*calms down*
Dont acuse me of not working until you have actualy worked/ helped me with a project unless you are telapathic. I am a nice person ask my team mates i have showed them respect and i have helped someone on a project that they tabled due to time, and other reasons. The only time when i get P***y is when someone who hasnt worked with me or doesnt even know me personly acuses me of not workong on my own D*** project. Now im going to wait for some reasonable posts that are people willing to help or someone who actualy has some nice advice for me. I tried starting out small i got no responses willing to help so dont tell me again
10/17/2006 (5:03 pm)
Well Matt the main reason for the change to the fps idea was infact a sugestion from one of the other members. And i havent been sitting on my butt i have been trying to get a web site done and working with what team i have. And excuse me if i cant work all dern day. Like many others I do have a life that requires waking up allmost every day going to school for a degree in network and computer specialist. And i sure the hell am not going to through away spending time with my parents. Now having said that I have been doing concept and i did draft a design document that is work last time i checked.Yet when i changed to the tatical fps idea no programmers volunteered so here i am back at the mmo game since its the one that i actualy got some actual posts WILLING I say again WILLING to take what free time they have or want to dedicate to my project so here i am doing one of the hardest things to do and damnit im sure the hell am not going to give up.*calms down*
Dont acuse me of not working until you have actualy worked/ helped me with a project unless you are telapathic. I am a nice person ask my team mates i have showed them respect and i have helped someone on a project that they tabled due to time, and other reasons. The only time when i get P***y is when someone who hasnt worked with me or doesnt even know me personly acuses me of not workong on my own D*** project. Now im going to wait for some reasonable posts that are people willing to help or someone who actualy has some nice advice for me. I tried starting out small i got no responses willing to help so dont tell me again
#30
You should see the goals my team has set for ourselves... are we making an MMO? nope... were making an MORPG... multiplayer but not shoointg for an 8 million client base like wow... but you know whats so awesome about that? My team is not on a deadline trying to rush something out the door to make the investors happy... every member of my team is doing this and has dedicated themselves to this for one sole reason... WE LOVE IT!
And it is ALWAYS the small development groups that don't have money but do it for the love of it that end up revolutionizing the industry... you will almost never hear of a major game company doing an mmo and doing something drastically new and exciting... why? because they are investing millions and they have to do what they know is proven to succeed... whcih is why we have so many fricking mmo clones out there.
So I say go after your dreams, if you have ideas that you feel are very new to the scene then more power to you! Because it's the little guys who dare to dream and actually care enough to do something new to make the gaming industry better as a whole... Maybe you'll make it big.. maybe it will flop and we will never hear of it... none of that is important... what is important is that you are not looking back 10 years from now and saying... " man.. I wish I had at least given it a shot... that's what I really wnated to do..." The best of luck bro... I hope you finish your game and it's everything you wanted it to be!
And to all would be flamers... ,,I,, (*_*) ,,I,,
Thank you and have a nice day! :)
10/17/2006 (6:23 pm)
My suggestion... go after your dreams and do what you love to do. Let others call it what they will the fact is your making a game.. who cares what initials it has... you said you realize the work that goes into one and that you are willing to work your ass off to make it happen... thats more then alot are ever able to say!You should see the goals my team has set for ourselves... are we making an MMO? nope... were making an MORPG... multiplayer but not shoointg for an 8 million client base like wow... but you know whats so awesome about that? My team is not on a deadline trying to rush something out the door to make the investors happy... every member of my team is doing this and has dedicated themselves to this for one sole reason... WE LOVE IT!
And it is ALWAYS the small development groups that don't have money but do it for the love of it that end up revolutionizing the industry... you will almost never hear of a major game company doing an mmo and doing something drastically new and exciting... why? because they are investing millions and they have to do what they know is proven to succeed... whcih is why we have so many fricking mmo clones out there.
So I say go after your dreams, if you have ideas that you feel are very new to the scene then more power to you! Because it's the little guys who dare to dream and actually care enough to do something new to make the gaming industry better as a whole... Maybe you'll make it big.. maybe it will flop and we will never hear of it... none of that is important... what is important is that you are not looking back 10 years from now and saying... " man.. I wish I had at least given it a shot... that's what I really wnated to do..." The best of luck bro... I hope you finish your game and it's everything you wanted it to be!
And to all would be flamers... ,,I,, (*_*) ,,I,,
Thank you and have a nice day! :)
#31
You should see the goals my team has set for ourselves... are we making an MMO? nope... were making an MORPG... multiplayer but not shoointg for an 8 million client base like wow... but you know whats so awesome about that? My team is not on a deadline trying to rush something out the door to make the investors happy... every member of my team is doing this and has dedicated themselves to this for one sole reason... WE LOVE IT!
And it is ALWAYS the small development groups that don't have money but do it for the love of it that end up revolutionizing the industry... you will almost never hear of a major game company doing an mmo and doing something drastically new and exciting... why? because they are investing millions and they have to do what they know is proven to succeed... which is why we have so many fricking mmo clones out there.
So I say go after your dreams, if you have ideas that you feel are very new to the scene then more power to you! Because it's the little guys who dare to dream and actually care enough to do something new to make the gaming industry better as a whole, that bring about the much needed changes... very often nothing more then a group of gamers who have decided they are bored and want to improve it and try to becaue the big boys wont! ... Maybe you'll make it big.. maybe it will flop and we will never hear of it... none of that is important... what is important is that you are not looking back 10 years from now and saying... " man.. I wish I had at least given it a shot... that's what I really wnated to do..." The best of luck bro... I hope you finish your game and it's everything you wanted it to be!
And to all would be flamers... ,,I,, (*_*) ,,I,,
Thank you and have a nice day! :)
10/17/2006 (6:25 pm)
My suggestion... go after your dreams and do what you love to do. Let others call it what they will the fact is your making a game.. who cares what initials it has... you said you realize the work that goes into one and that you are willing to work your ass off to make it happen... thats more then alot are ever able to say!You should see the goals my team has set for ourselves... are we making an MMO? nope... were making an MORPG... multiplayer but not shoointg for an 8 million client base like wow... but you know whats so awesome about that? My team is not on a deadline trying to rush something out the door to make the investors happy... every member of my team is doing this and has dedicated themselves to this for one sole reason... WE LOVE IT!
And it is ALWAYS the small development groups that don't have money but do it for the love of it that end up revolutionizing the industry... you will almost never hear of a major game company doing an mmo and doing something drastically new and exciting... why? because they are investing millions and they have to do what they know is proven to succeed... which is why we have so many fricking mmo clones out there.
So I say go after your dreams, if you have ideas that you feel are very new to the scene then more power to you! Because it's the little guys who dare to dream and actually care enough to do something new to make the gaming industry better as a whole, that bring about the much needed changes... very often nothing more then a group of gamers who have decided they are bored and want to improve it and try to becaue the big boys wont! ... Maybe you'll make it big.. maybe it will flop and we will never hear of it... none of that is important... what is important is that you are not looking back 10 years from now and saying... " man.. I wish I had at least given it a shot... that's what I really wnated to do..." The best of luck bro... I hope you finish your game and it's everything you wanted it to be!
And to all would be flamers... ,,I,, (*_*) ,,I,,
Thank you and have a nice day! :)
#32
10/17/2006 (6:32 pm)
LMFAO just got the lil ",,I,, (*_*) ,,I,," thing that is cute :P. Thanks for your post Ethan, and your support I dont plan on rushing it thats how the majority of bugs are formed that and stupid updates. Ethan if you dont mind me asking what is your email adress perhaps we can help each other out in some way or just share ideas. and like Ethan so politly put it here u go flamers ,,I,, (*_*) ,,I,, lol
#33
The ambiguity of your asterisks made me laugh because the first word that came to mind wasn't "pissy".
I'm not quite sure if you understood what I meant by "starting small", though. A FPS is not small. A RTS is not small. Component parts that work towards your goal.
For example, I prototype like crazy because it is about the only time I get to pretend to be a game developer. I don't have time to tie my shoes, let alone work on a game full-time right now. But I have a pet project. We all do. Sometimes we have several. My pet project is a survival horror game. I've prototyped pieces in a lot of engines to see how I wanted the gameplay to work. But since I have little time between being a gradual student, working full time, teaching, being the vice-president of the board of a non-profit theatre in town, and taking care of an ailing mother, I have to manage things out into chunks. It's a sob story. We all have them. No time, blah, blah, blah.
I will give an example of break-down prototyping that I have done to see if I can make my point clearer about making the small things add up. This is not only to help you with your projects, but to help people who come here and search a year from now and are overwhelmed by the size and nature of their undertakings.
So what I did is I started small. I started with a foyer area in a manor that I designed a long time ago now. Foyers are easy. The artwork was simple. I created my basic map architecture and created basic DTS details (railings, pictures, desks, etc). That was easy. The next thing I wanted was for my windows (DTS) to have reflection. This would normally mean a jump to shaders in todays "boy-howdy shader-driven world". What I did is think about how to work with my limitations. I created a mirrored wall (DIF) outside the windows and set the texture on the windows to be a dark alpha. So I have reflective windows. Sure, they look odd at angles, but I'm also making it takes place in the dark with a flashlight so such things are a little less noticable. Then I decided that it would be cool if the windows would break. I recreated my window DTS's to separate the glass from the window and set the bounding box for collision in front of the frames. I set the damage and debris and had breaking glass. But then I had a mirror where the glass used to be. So I moved that DIF out and placed a dark "night" wall in front of it. When I triggered the breaking glass, I made the "night" DIF visible. No mirror. I did the same with each window. Then I decided that I wanted a balcony out there so I could do something creepy with lightning (there are several segments in Cold Fear where you see creepy things in flashes of lightning...this was my favorite things about CF...the atmosphere--thought I liked the difficulty as well, just not the frustration of distanced save points and ammo conservation). So I began reorienting things. I created a DTS balcony and moved the mirror back. I had to enlarge it because it seemed really askew from some angles. I also created more "mirror" walls to help that as well as "night" walls to obscure it when the window was destroyed. Then I put Kork outside the window (some guy with an ax would be scarier). There are two lightning flashes. One with Kork (light behind him) and one without. I added audio later because it was disorienting to see him appear and disappear without audio. But it worked. Kork would appear and then be gone (plus, it is a static Kork so he casts shadows nicely in TLK). Then the rest of the flashes were without him. Unlike shaders and shadowing, it wasn't a shadow. He just wasn't lit from the direction I was lighting him. His back would have been fullbright. It turned out rather well for a prototype. I am hoping to add animated curtains (stretching my artistic abilities) once the glass is broken. As well as a flashlight and pistol to the skeleton pack.
These are very simple prototype solutions to what seem like somewhat complex problems. I took what I wanted (mainly a cheesy window effect) and tried to figure out how to make it work with minimal work. And having created that effect, I can refine it and make it really nice. I can time it, work music with it, etc. But that's a level of polish that will take much more time than the simple prototype I came up with.
As I noted, though, I have taken the map and converted it to OBJ or 3DS to use in other engines to do other things with. Things like Penumbra-like physics puzzles using Unity or quick camera work using BeyondVirtual. I am evaluating Lawmaker right now and have done some interesting work with shaders, trying to get rid of the prettiness in gritty environments. Entrails and metal should be shiny. Rotted wood planking should not look like a clean-up crew was in there polishing all morning before Condemned was released.
I don't know if it clears up any of what I've been saying through your posts, but maybe it captures what I mean by start small. You can dream as big as you like. But you have to "right-size it" (1) to make it happen. And that takes baby steps.
(1) Jeff Tunnell
EDIT: Wanted to add quotes to Jeff's sentiment. I didn't want anyone reading this later to think that Jeff had said anything else that spews out of my fingers by reference. He gives good, solid advice that sometimes people do not want to hear. I give verbose, often unsolicited and illicit, advice.
10/17/2006 (8:18 pm)
Quote:The only time when i get P***y is when someone who hasnt worked with me or doesnt even know me personly acuses me of not workong on my own D*** project.
The ambiguity of your asterisks made me laugh because the first word that came to mind wasn't "pissy".
I'm not quite sure if you understood what I meant by "starting small", though. A FPS is not small. A RTS is not small. Component parts that work towards your goal.
For example, I prototype like crazy because it is about the only time I get to pretend to be a game developer. I don't have time to tie my shoes, let alone work on a game full-time right now. But I have a pet project. We all do. Sometimes we have several. My pet project is a survival horror game. I've prototyped pieces in a lot of engines to see how I wanted the gameplay to work. But since I have little time between being a gradual student, working full time, teaching, being the vice-president of the board of a non-profit theatre in town, and taking care of an ailing mother, I have to manage things out into chunks. It's a sob story. We all have them. No time, blah, blah, blah.
I will give an example of break-down prototyping that I have done to see if I can make my point clearer about making the small things add up. This is not only to help you with your projects, but to help people who come here and search a year from now and are overwhelmed by the size and nature of their undertakings.
So what I did is I started small. I started with a foyer area in a manor that I designed a long time ago now. Foyers are easy. The artwork was simple. I created my basic map architecture and created basic DTS details (railings, pictures, desks, etc). That was easy. The next thing I wanted was for my windows (DTS) to have reflection. This would normally mean a jump to shaders in todays "boy-howdy shader-driven world". What I did is think about how to work with my limitations. I created a mirrored wall (DIF) outside the windows and set the texture on the windows to be a dark alpha. So I have reflective windows. Sure, they look odd at angles, but I'm also making it takes place in the dark with a flashlight so such things are a little less noticable. Then I decided that it would be cool if the windows would break. I recreated my window DTS's to separate the glass from the window and set the bounding box for collision in front of the frames. I set the damage and debris and had breaking glass. But then I had a mirror where the glass used to be. So I moved that DIF out and placed a dark "night" wall in front of it. When I triggered the breaking glass, I made the "night" DIF visible. No mirror. I did the same with each window. Then I decided that I wanted a balcony out there so I could do something creepy with lightning (there are several segments in Cold Fear where you see creepy things in flashes of lightning...this was my favorite things about CF...the atmosphere--thought I liked the difficulty as well, just not the frustration of distanced save points and ammo conservation). So I began reorienting things. I created a DTS balcony and moved the mirror back. I had to enlarge it because it seemed really askew from some angles. I also created more "mirror" walls to help that as well as "night" walls to obscure it when the window was destroyed. Then I put Kork outside the window (some guy with an ax would be scarier). There are two lightning flashes. One with Kork (light behind him) and one without. I added audio later because it was disorienting to see him appear and disappear without audio. But it worked. Kork would appear and then be gone (plus, it is a static Kork so he casts shadows nicely in TLK). Then the rest of the flashes were without him. Unlike shaders and shadowing, it wasn't a shadow. He just wasn't lit from the direction I was lighting him. His back would have been fullbright. It turned out rather well for a prototype. I am hoping to add animated curtains (stretching my artistic abilities) once the glass is broken. As well as a flashlight and pistol to the skeleton pack.
These are very simple prototype solutions to what seem like somewhat complex problems. I took what I wanted (mainly a cheesy window effect) and tried to figure out how to make it work with minimal work. And having created that effect, I can refine it and make it really nice. I can time it, work music with it, etc. But that's a level of polish that will take much more time than the simple prototype I came up with.
As I noted, though, I have taken the map and converted it to OBJ or 3DS to use in other engines to do other things with. Things like Penumbra-like physics puzzles using Unity or quick camera work using BeyondVirtual. I am evaluating Lawmaker right now and have done some interesting work with shaders, trying to get rid of the prettiness in gritty environments. Entrails and metal should be shiny. Rotted wood planking should not look like a clean-up crew was in there polishing all morning before Condemned was released.
I don't know if it clears up any of what I've been saying through your posts, but maybe it captures what I mean by start small. You can dream as big as you like. But you have to "right-size it" (1) to make it happen. And that takes baby steps.
(1) Jeff Tunnell
EDIT: Wanted to add quotes to Jeff's sentiment. I didn't want anyone reading this later to think that Jeff had said anything else that spews out of my fingers by reference. He gives good, solid advice that sometimes people do not want to hear. I give verbose, often unsolicited and illicit, advice.
#34
10/17/2006 (8:36 pm)
Ok i was under the impression you were saying start with 2d games which i abosultly refuse to do. yes you have less time to work on your project than i do which if i made it seem i directed it only at you i apologize David
#35
But that wasn't my oritinal intent. It is an EXCELLENT place to start, but it doesn't mean you have to start there. Or stop there.
Though in many ways, I prefer the vast majority of portal 2D games on sites like pogo.com more than any MMO. They have no pretense. They are a chat client with games. MMO's pretend to be RPG's with chat clients when people meet, greet, and posture...just like in chat or console spamming. And there's really very little distinction right now between the two other than pretense.
Another mod at GameFAQs once noted that "Online gaming is great. Except for the other players." That rings so true sometimes.
10/17/2006 (8:47 pm)
Actually, 2D is an excellent place to start, even if it is in the realm of making and understanding GUI interface, usability, mini-games, etc that will keep people coming back to your game over others. I know people who still put in different finalt fantasy games simply to play the card games because they loved them. I hated them with a passion, but some love them still. And they would adore playing them online...which they can to some extent in FFXI, I believe.But that wasn't my oritinal intent. It is an EXCELLENT place to start, but it doesn't mean you have to start there. Or stop there.
Though in many ways, I prefer the vast majority of portal 2D games on sites like pogo.com more than any MMO. They have no pretense. They are a chat client with games. MMO's pretend to be RPG's with chat clients when people meet, greet, and posture...just like in chat or console spamming. And there's really very little distinction right now between the two other than pretense.
Another mod at GameFAQs once noted that "Online gaming is great. Except for the other players." That rings so true sometimes.
#36
10/17/2006 (8:54 pm)
I abolsutly hate 2d games with a pation i do not own any that i know of other than maybe the first baldur gate which i dont even play. I know that people still play em and thats fine thats their thing i have respect for that. But im not going to make a game type that i do not like. would starting out small be like make a zone/mission for my mmo game?
#37
Those three tasks should be a god prototyping "small" experience. Don't concentrate on firing weapons or anything. Just get in the ship and fly it. Make flying seem natural. Get feedback. Then work on targeting and weapon fire. Then work on docking.
Then work up from there.
Zoning is a rather huge mess if you don't even have the extreme basics in order.
Perhaps something like switching weapons would be a good start. Then boarding your ship and flying. Then firing. Then docking. Choose an area (land would be the best starting point since air vehicles are more complicated than running around and triggering events on land).
When I say "start small", I mean making a stand with Kork the Orc standing at it. Figure out how to trigger him to say "Hello." I mean the extreme basics which we often take for granted. If I had come into "the scene" once shader-enabled cards were making reflection maps, I highly doubt I would have come up with my DIF reflection work-around. It may not be elegant, but it works. It may not be as nifty as shaders, but it works on old hardware. Right now it looks like ass, but it is functional.
You have to take what you have and think about what you want. Then figure out how to make the closest estimation with your skillset. Since I am prototyping, I try to make minimal engine changes. I have some of the ugliest triggers and pathed camera crap for a small space that anyone has ever seen, but it works...for the most part. Having a dream is one thing. Making it is another. You need to find the points of convergence. You will have to sacrifice some of your dream, some money, and a lot of time. But it is possible to be happy with what you make.
I'm not an idealist. I am a realist, though a bleary-eyed optimist, which is nearly as bad as an idealist when it comes right down to it.
10/17/2006 (9:08 pm)
I think "starting small" would be making a ship and mounting a player to it correctly. It is an art project that would allow you to hone your artist skills and perform extremely basic scripting tasks (which are well documented). Then work on making flying the ship seem natural. Then create a "mothership" that you can dock with and move inside of.Those three tasks should be a god prototyping "small" experience. Don't concentrate on firing weapons or anything. Just get in the ship and fly it. Make flying seem natural. Get feedback. Then work on targeting and weapon fire. Then work on docking.
Then work up from there.
Zoning is a rather huge mess if you don't even have the extreme basics in order.
Perhaps something like switching weapons would be a good start. Then boarding your ship and flying. Then firing. Then docking. Choose an area (land would be the best starting point since air vehicles are more complicated than running around and triggering events on land).
When I say "start small", I mean making a stand with Kork the Orc standing at it. Figure out how to trigger him to say "Hello
You have to take what you have and think about what you want. Then figure out how to make the closest estimation with your skillset. Since I am prototyping, I try to make minimal engine changes. I have some of the ugliest triggers and pathed camera crap for a small space that anyone has ever seen, but it works...for the most part. Having a dream is one thing. Making it is another. You need to find the points of convergence. You will have to sacrifice some of your dream, some money, and a lot of time. But it is possible to be happy with what you make.
I'm not an idealist. I am a realist, though a bleary-eyed optimist, which is nearly as bad as an idealist when it comes right down to it.
#38
10/17/2006 (9:13 pm)
Well if im not mistaken dreamers mmo enhancment thingy usses missions as the actual zones when u leave the boundries of one mission then the other one loads
#39
But still, you should sit down and figure out the basics. Otherwise it won't matter if missions are zoned out or not. You can have a million basic zones with no content and nothing to do. You need to give yourself and players something to do. And that is where the simple prototyping that I am talking about comes into play. Even the simplest "hello citizen" as you walk by a guard making his rounds on a path. The FPS demo comes with a path example (Kork is running along it). Use it and see if you can trigger a conversation event as you get close to the "guard". Little things that work well in a game.
Dreamer and crew have put out some amazing work, but you need to make it relevant. Otherwise it is just their defaults and a couple of models that your team has put together. You can only look at it for so long without doing something with it and making your game interactive. And believe me, I love seeing the crappy art I do in-game. But still, it needs to be functional in some aspect, which is why I worked on breaking windows. It is stupid. It is cheesy. But I was pissed in the pre-rendered RE's when I would shoot a window and it didn't break (especially when the camera did if you shot it in some places).
10/17/2006 (9:22 pm)
I believe so. I do not own the MMOKit yet. If I choose to implement RPG'ish stuff, I probably will pick it up to save me time (though Ramen Sama's console-style RPG would be more my taste). It is hands-down woth the money, though. It is just not useful to my current prototyping projects. If it makes my life easier in even the simplest feature, I will pick it up. I've been keeping tabs on it for a long, long time.But still, you should sit down and figure out the basics. Otherwise it won't matter if missions are zoned out or not. You can have a million basic zones with no content and nothing to do. You need to give yourself and players something to do. And that is where the simple prototyping that I am talking about comes into play. Even the simplest "hello citizen" as you walk by a guard making his rounds on a path. The FPS demo comes with a path example (Kork is running along it). Use it and see if you can trigger a conversation event as you get close to the "guard". Little things that work well in a game.
Dreamer and crew have put out some amazing work, but you need to make it relevant. Otherwise it is just their defaults and a couple of models that your team has put together. You can only look at it for so long without doing something with it and making your game interactive. And believe me, I love seeing the crappy art I do in-game. But still, it needs to be functional in some aspect, which is why I worked on breaking windows. It is stupid. It is cheesy. But I was pissed in the pre-rendered RE's when I would shoot a window and it didn't break (especially when the camera did if you shot it in some places).
#40
10/17/2006 (9:27 pm)
I may see what i can do with making a city with ship docks and have the player get in the ship take off and land back
Torque 3D Owner Brian Irvin