MMO kit question
by Brian Irvin · in General Discussion · 10/06/2006 (6:41 pm) · 115 replies
Http://www.mydreamrpg.com/ is this realy worth geting? I am wanting input i may full around it but im not sure since I am currently in the process of designing a game
About the author
#2
10/07/2006 (6:18 am)
It should only be 90 dollars and not 150 i am also tempted
#3
10/07/2006 (6:21 am)
Depends on what comes with it and how much easier it actually makes it all. If I could find more information on it. They get you to validate your TSE and TGE licenses by posting in the private forums on this site and a number of guys have done it. Looks legit anyway. 
#4
Tampering earlier on with standard TGE have been a real battle cause its not a fit for mmo out of the box, but we have been learning a lot in the process, and our team have taken steps in the right direction.
Getting the mmokit did save us a lot of work, and I dont just mean 100 hours, I really mean a LOT of work. The pure amount of coding that have gone into this kit, tweaking it towards a full blood TGE/TSE patcher towards a ful scale mmo cannot be measured at all.
So if you are at the plank with all your notes in the hands, and planning to dive into a mmo development pool, then get this mmokit. Cause after installation, you can fire up your 'mmokit' and start tweaking your ideas right in -I know this, cuase thats what we did!
And the price -How much code would you do for 150$ ?
10/07/2006 (6:45 am)
Well let me keep it simple, Im the lead on a mmo ( www.islesofmidgard.com ) currently being worked at.Tampering earlier on with standard TGE have been a real battle cause its not a fit for mmo out of the box, but we have been learning a lot in the process, and our team have taken steps in the right direction.
Getting the mmokit did save us a lot of work, and I dont just mean 100 hours, I really mean a LOT of work. The pure amount of coding that have gone into this kit, tweaking it towards a full blood TGE/TSE patcher towards a ful scale mmo cannot be measured at all.
So if you are at the plank with all your notes in the hands, and planning to dive into a mmo development pool, then get this mmokit. Cause after installation, you can fire up your 'mmokit' and start tweaking your ideas right in -I know this, cuase thats what we did!
And the price -How much code would you do for 150$ ?
#5
Its great, the community is growing, projects are starting to advance in all directions. Updates are frequent if you buy a gold membership (SVN acess), but if you just get the kit you still get somewhat frequent updates. 1.5 is getting alot of work done right now - when its released a contest starts for $1k. Depending on what membership you get there is alot of free artwork and such out there, and as of tonight/today it seems the kit has made a strategic alliance with a creator of a few tools... lets just say the next release will come with even more value. Some sites are also giving discounts to owners, not to mention free artwork (we actually picked what we wanted from a pack... for free, as a community)
If you are totally new to TGE and just want a mmo up in a month or less I really doubt your ever going to accomplish anything (with torque, or the kit for that matter). If you however have at least some basic knowledge of TorqueScript you will find a treasuretrove. Furthermore acess to the tutorials provides you with step by step information (if you dont want the prebuilt, you get them both however so go your own route). Skip a step if you dont want it, add things, its all explained in great detail - the tutorials alone are probably worth a heck of alot more then anybody wants to admit
Titas (the TSE version of the kit) is also starting to bloom, however it is somewhat slower at doing so. Merges between both codebases happen frequently enough, I have high hopes of a workable release in a month or two - till then you can always script script script, creatre all your art, etc (which is what takes alot of time now, that the programming has been almost totally coverd)
Is it worth $150? Mmm, yes. I would dare say its worth more then every content pack, and starter kit provided on this website combined (of course it seems there are content packs now being made and sold only on the MMOkit site...). The only thing that has a higher bang for the buck is TGE (assuming you got it cheap before these price hikes ;)) but they have been working on it for years and years and this kit wasnt started more then a few months ago
Im an owner, bought membership back before the site was the site, or the site before it.... basically as quickly as it was possible I jumped on the offer (Called a dream membership - and even though it was only avialiable for a short time there are plenty of us). I would actually reccomend getting the Gold membership, it will give you acess to SVN so you can update every day (and there are usually more then a couple updates by the time you get around to it) instead of wait for somebody to compress it and put it up on the site. It also gives you acess to resources on the site (a downloads section where some of us are starting to share content, free of charge). Its something like 12 or 15 a month IIRC, which makes it cheaper in the short run, and the content pays for itself time after time as new things are added (and you fuel development)
Buddy, if you want to make an MMO and have any sort of chance to complete it... this kit is a REQUIREMENT unless you have a million bucks in the bank and a large team of dedicated monkeys to do the work for you
10/07/2006 (7:18 am)
Hahaha, your getting it for pennys on the thousand dollars! Is breathing really worth the effort you put into it (same answer I hope)Its great, the community is growing, projects are starting to advance in all directions. Updates are frequent if you buy a gold membership (SVN acess), but if you just get the kit you still get somewhat frequent updates. 1.5 is getting alot of work done right now - when its released a contest starts for $1k. Depending on what membership you get there is alot of free artwork and such out there, and as of tonight/today it seems the kit has made a strategic alliance with a creator of a few tools... lets just say the next release will come with even more value. Some sites are also giving discounts to owners, not to mention free artwork (we actually picked what we wanted from a pack... for free, as a community)
If you are totally new to TGE and just want a mmo up in a month or less I really doubt your ever going to accomplish anything (with torque, or the kit for that matter). If you however have at least some basic knowledge of TorqueScript you will find a treasuretrove. Furthermore acess to the tutorials provides you with step by step information (if you dont want the prebuilt, you get them both however so go your own route). Skip a step if you dont want it, add things, its all explained in great detail - the tutorials alone are probably worth a heck of alot more then anybody wants to admit
Titas (the TSE version of the kit) is also starting to bloom, however it is somewhat slower at doing so. Merges between both codebases happen frequently enough, I have high hopes of a workable release in a month or two - till then you can always script script script, creatre all your art, etc (which is what takes alot of time now, that the programming has been almost totally coverd)
Is it worth $150? Mmm, yes. I would dare say its worth more then every content pack, and starter kit provided on this website combined (of course it seems there are content packs now being made and sold only on the MMOkit site...). The only thing that has a higher bang for the buck is TGE (assuming you got it cheap before these price hikes ;)) but they have been working on it for years and years and this kit wasnt started more then a few months ago
Im an owner, bought membership back before the site was the site, or the site before it.... basically as quickly as it was possible I jumped on the offer (Called a dream membership - and even though it was only avialiable for a short time there are plenty of us). I would actually reccomend getting the Gold membership, it will give you acess to SVN so you can update every day (and there are usually more then a couple updates by the time you get around to it) instead of wait for somebody to compress it and put it up on the site. It also gives you acess to resources on the site (a downloads section where some of us are starting to share content, free of charge). Its something like 12 or 15 a month IIRC, which makes it cheaper in the short run, and the content pays for itself time after time as new things are added (and you fuel development)
Buddy, if you want to make an MMO and have any sort of chance to complete it... this kit is a REQUIREMENT unless you have a million bucks in the bank and a large team of dedicated monkeys to do the work for you
#6
10/07/2006 (11:18 am)
I will probaly plan on geting the pack i have one idea for an mmo game kinda like galaxies but it will alow players to have dog fights in the air and in space with seemless transition between the 2. I am nott sure how it would fare. I did plan on trying to get a team I allready have one that said hed help out a lil, and one maybe. It was the my "java game post" that was before this one. How hard would it be to change the kit a lil to do this. I am no programmer probaly will never be, but my strong spot will probaly be artwork still kinda perfacting that but i find it somewhat easier than programming. If anyone would like to help i can post an overview of what my game will be like. Simply put i want it to kick ass like galaxies did before alll of the lame bull **** changes SOE did, which lucas arts was kinda involved in that also acording to an ebgames employee. But it will not be a "duplicate" of galaxies i just hope and wish it will hit some even if it isnt a big hit. now for the bad part if anyone does help me i can not pay them until the game is published so its kinda iffy. Be nice if i could find a tree that grows money lol.
#7
Does the MMO kit improve on the stock networking stuff to make TGE more suitable for an MMO?
10/07/2006 (11:44 am)
For me the selling point of an MMO kit would be the ability to distribute the dedicated server such that you can handle a few thousand clients.Does the MMO kit improve on the stock networking stuff to make TGE more suitable for an MMO?
#8
10/07/2006 (12:11 pm)
Another thing i want it to be playable on linux mac and windows
#9
As to Ians question, yes we have optimized the netcode somewhat and you can handle a few hundred connections on a single server instance. There are several threads showing real world metrics on our site right in the public area so I won't go into too much depth about it but the general answer is the only limit to the number of players you can have is how much your hardware can handle. Add to that the fact that 1.5 features some seriously tight code and elimination of certain loops from previous versions that slowed it down a bit and I think the old numbers could be given an additional 15-25% boost.
And yes Brian the client runs on Linux, Mac and Windows. In fact I personally ONLY run Linux :)
Regards,
Dreamer
10/08/2006 (1:38 am)
Hey guys thanks for all the positive feedback on the kit, I really appreciate.As to Ians question, yes we have optimized the netcode somewhat and you can handle a few hundred connections on a single server instance. There are several threads showing real world metrics on our site right in the public area so I won't go into too much depth about it but the general answer is the only limit to the number of players you can have is how much your hardware can handle. Add to that the fact that 1.5 features some seriously tight code and elimination of certain loops from previous versions that slowed it down a bit and I think the old numbers could be given an additional 15-25% boost.
And yes Brian the client runs on Linux, Mac and Windows. In fact I personally ONLY run Linux :)
Regards,
Dreamer
#10
10/08/2006 (6:23 am)
One last question about the mmo kit. You can make mmo rpgs but can you switch it over to something like galaxies or would that be considered and mmorpg "before NGE and other soe bull" Keep in mind im not programmer
#11
10/08/2006 (1:08 pm)
Sure it should be possible
#12
That doesn't answer the question, though.
If I have a "zoned" world, where the user travels between different zones (or levels), such as snowy mountains vs tropical islands vs underground dungeons, does the MMOKit help with the management of the multiple game servers necessary? How does it deal with migration of the player?
10/08/2006 (4:05 pm)
Quote:the only limit to the number of players you can have is how much your hardware can handle
That doesn't answer the question, though.
If I have a "zoned" world, where the user travels between different zones (or levels), such as snowy mountains vs tropical islands vs underground dungeons, does the MMOKit help with the management of the multiple game servers necessary? How does it deal with migration of the player?
#13
10/08/2006 (4:10 pm)
And what about zoneless such as a transition between say earth's habital atmosphere to the un habital outerspace that out planet moves around. is it possible toget hardware that is affordable and able to do this. if it has to be transition zoning between cities of qeynos in EQ2 that is fine but id realy love zoneless transition
#14
So say you had a P2 400 MHZ with 64 MBs of RAM, would you be able to handle as many open instances of notepad, as someone running a Core Duo with 4GB of ram? So yes that is the crux of the problem, we have real customers with real world test results that are showing excellent availablity with a few hundred concurrent connections on todays commodity servers i.e. Servers that cost less that $100 per month are considered commodity hardware for the purposes of the debate.
As to how zoning works thats pretty simple, but depends on if you use Titas ot MMOKit. In Titas there are no Zones, everything that needs to run is loaded on demand and served to the client on an as needed basis. i.e. You can do huge worlds and you don't break it up into zones.
As for the MMOKit, you create a small file that defines how each zone connects to each other zone, then when OnLeaveMissionArea is called the client is told to connect to the server running the zone they are trying to get to. That type of zoning is more akin to the old style of zoning present in games such as EverQuest.
10/08/2006 (4:19 pm)
Actually it's the only possible to answer to the question. If you have good hardware you will be able to handle more players than if you have poor hardware. That question is essentially akin to "How many copies of notepad can I have running under windows?" Well the answer depends on hardware mostly, considering that notepad consumes roughly a set amount of memory.So say you had a P2 400 MHZ with 64 MBs of RAM, would you be able to handle as many open instances of notepad, as someone running a Core Duo with 4GB of ram? So yes that is the crux of the problem, we have real customers with real world test results that are showing excellent availablity with a few hundred concurrent connections on todays commodity servers i.e. Servers that cost less that $100 per month are considered commodity hardware for the purposes of the debate.
As to how zoning works thats pretty simple, but depends on if you use Titas ot MMOKit. In Titas there are no Zones, everything that needs to run is loaded on demand and served to the client on an as needed basis. i.e. You can do huge worlds and you don't break it up into zones.
As for the MMOKit, you create a small file that defines how each zone connects to each other zone, then when OnLeaveMissionArea is called the client is told to connect to the server running the zone they are trying to get to. That type of zoning is more akin to the old style of zoning present in games such as EverQuest.
#15
10/08/2006 (4:20 pm)
For the type of zoneing you want you are likely better off with Titas than the MMOKit, because that is one place they differ alot is how zoneing is accomplished. With Titas there is no need for zoneing with the MMOKit there is a need for it.
#16
10/08/2006 (4:28 pm)
I may use endup using zoning then because there will be 4 solar systems with the release and maybe more as expansion packs are made assuming it is a hit. right now i have a web server that has a p4 in it with ht technolocgy as for memory i can add more it has room for 4 gb's i may need to step up the hard drive to. I am going to ask of an aproximate on the hardware now. if i do make a server it will likely have 2-3 unit hotswap drive bays possible sata with raid 5. probaly go with a 2 cpu mobo with amds on it. which linus would you sugest using cause i meen windows is jsut frankly to damn high. atleast i can get linux for free.
#17
Unfortunately and sadly, as of late Gentoo has gone straight to hell, and I would no longer recommend using it due to package problems and alot of breakages recently.
I have been successfully using the Ubuntu variants now for a couple months and they seem to be alot better.
And yeah I deffinetly would not recommend Windows for a server.
As far as your hardware goes, no one has tried a configuration that big before to the best of my knowledge, so I would expect a pretty serious increase to the figures :)
Regards,
Dreamer
10/08/2006 (4:33 pm)
Well if you had asked me the Linux question a few months ago I would have said Gentoo hands down.Unfortunately and sadly, as of late Gentoo has gone straight to hell, and I would no longer recommend using it due to package problems and alot of breakages recently.
I have been successfully using the Ubuntu variants now for a couple months and they seem to be alot better.
And yeah I deffinetly would not recommend Windows for a server.
As far as your hardware goes, no one has tried a configuration that big before to the best of my knowledge, so I would expect a pretty serious increase to the figures :)
Regards,
Dreamer
#18
is the TSE finaly stable or will the tse version of the mmo ket makes it more stable
10/08/2006 (4:37 pm)
Would it be best to just cut it down with 2 solar systems tell i got revenue to fuel it further? I have suse linux on cd would you recomend that or should i use Ubuntu "linux" im assuming? if you had to make a guess what would you shoot for if u were implamenting this plan other than an act of god lolis the TSE finaly stable or will the tse version of the mmo ket makes it more stable
#19
We teach both SUSE and Fedora for our server versions and Ubuntu for our desktop Linux. We have had very good success with SUSE as a server here both from a learning stand point and a maintenance/performance standpoint. Of course you can use any version of Linux so this is just one man's opinion but I think you would be happy with SUSE.
Oh and download the latest verion of whatever you use.
10/08/2006 (5:10 pm)
@BrianWe teach both SUSE and Fedora for our server versions and Ubuntu for our desktop Linux. We have had very good success with SUSE as a server here both from a learning stand point and a maintenance/performance standpoint. Of course you can use any version of Linux so this is just one man's opinion but I think you would be happy with SUSE.
Oh and download the latest verion of whatever you use.
#20
10/08/2006 (5:13 pm)
Suse it is now all i need is an aproximate need for hard ware
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