Torque X
by Geoff \'Got Haggis?\' Rowland · in General Discussion · 08/14/2006 (7:05 am) · 74 replies
Quote:
What is Torque X? What is XNA?
"Torque X" is what we've dubbed Torque on XNA. XNA is Microsoft's overall umbrella brand for game development technologies and tools. The XNA Framework is a C#-based, managed code game development-specific framework that provides low-level utilities, and wraps Direct X for managed code use. XNA Game Studio Express is Microsoft's IDE for XNA, its similar to Visual Studio, with game development-specific enhancements. Microsoft also just announced that with XNA Game Studio Express, you can play the XNA-based games you create on the Xbox 360 as well as Windows.
Please see the Torque X landing page for more information on Torque X (FYI GGers, the Torque X landing page will launch on the main GG site on Monday: www.garagegames.com/products/torque/x
What we've done is port key pieces of Torque over to C# in order to make it work with the XNA Framework. Microsoft's approach with XNA is really cool for game developers of all kinds. Besides being able to make games on consoles, it honestly turns out that doing games in managed code is a smart way to go. Torque X projects are performant already, and we're not even done with it yet.
Our goal is to have feature parity between Torque X and our existing engines TGB and TSE. We've already got a lot of their functionality up and running, and Torque X is even leading the way in some cases... we've been able to get nice implementations of some future TGB and TSE features, such as shaderized 2D scenes and polysoup collision detection in TSE, up and running in Torque X very quickly (thanks in part to the ease of working with managed code).
Why don't you just finish what you've already got started?
We are. We're shipping TSE Miletone 4 this week, and that includes a full static and dynamic lighting and shadowing system, as well as some awesome graphical special effects, performance improvements, and a lot more. TSE is making incredible progress, and is feature complete with Milestone 4! For the TSE release, all we have left to do is tune, polish, squash any remaining bugs, and write lots of good docs.
We just shipped TGB 1.1.1, which includes all kinds of fancy new features, including a whole new tile editor, and a bunch of usability improvements based on community feedback. TGB updates are continuing apace, and we'll have a new one every few weeks!
We're also working on a big update to TGE. Constructor is well into its Beta. And we even just entered Beta on a new game we've been doing internally. GG is getting stuff done faster than we ever have before, and Torque X is just an exciting new addition to our efforts!
i found this on the interweb
#62
Game Studio Express is basically a version of Visual Studio Express set up specifically for writing games using the XNA framework. This XNA Framework allows you to, with subscription to the Creator's Club, deploy a game built with GSE to a retail XBox360.
Torque X is a selection of Torque functionality, user interface, and capabilities (such as all of the TGB goodness, shaders, the simulation architecture itself, and quite a bit more) that act as a toolset for ease of game creation on top of GSE XNA. Just like things exist currently, you don't have to use Torque X to make games with GSE XNA, but not too many people will want to write their own game engines on top of XNA via Game Studio Express.
Torque X is limited by what functionality Game Studio Express provides, so no, there will not be much in the way of networking, or enhanced binary distribution until such time as Microsoft provides that functionality.
Excuse the ANSI art, but the developer pipeline will look a bit like:
08/15/2006 (1:28 pm)
It's honestly not quite solidified yet, but here's the general skinny:Game Studio Express is basically a version of Visual Studio Express set up specifically for writing games using the XNA framework. This XNA Framework allows you to, with subscription to the Creator's Club, deploy a game built with GSE to a retail XBox360.
Torque X is a selection of Torque functionality, user interface, and capabilities (such as all of the TGB goodness, shaders, the simulation architecture itself, and quite a bit more) that act as a toolset for ease of game creation on top of GSE XNA. Just like things exist currently, you don't have to use Torque X to make games with GSE XNA, but not too many people will want to write their own game engines on top of XNA via Game Studio Express.
Torque X is limited by what functionality Game Studio Express provides, so no, there will not be much in the way of networking, or enhanced binary distribution until such time as Microsoft provides that functionality.
Excuse the ANSI art, but the developer pipeline will look a bit like:
Torque X
|
Game Studio Express XNA
|
Creator's Club
|
Sharing of source, and build deployment to XBox360 
#63
> 1) performance wise, .NET 2.0's CLR (the thing that actually runs your program) is quite a bit improved over 1.1
Not totally correct ;), in my bechmarks, pure math operations are SLOWER in 2.0 then in 1.1, because of impact of the generics (they kick in even if you dont use them - bug?) - additional traverse through OOP tables... But in some cases performance was improved only a BIT - that's true :) Comparing perfomance VS2003 and VS2005 on my dev computer - VS2003 works visibly faster, I dunno why (I have enough memory to stay away from swapping)...
performance wise mono is a way faster then widly accepted Lua for scripting - that's another good thought about mono ;)
java is not that slower then MS framework.net - maybe about 3% on desktop...
I have big hopes for Mono anyway for the cross-platform scripting...
08/15/2006 (1:54 pm)
@Jason:> 1) performance wise, .NET 2.0's CLR (the thing that actually runs your program) is quite a bit improved over 1.1
Not totally correct ;), in my bechmarks, pure math operations are SLOWER in 2.0 then in 1.1, because of impact of the generics (they kick in even if you dont use them - bug?) - additional traverse through OOP tables... But in some cases performance was improved only a BIT - that's true :) Comparing perfomance VS2003 and VS2005 on my dev computer - VS2003 works visibly faster, I dunno why (I have enough memory to stay away from swapping)...
performance wise mono is a way faster then widly accepted Lua for scripting - that's another good thought about mono ;)
java is not that slower then MS framework.net - maybe about 3% on desktop...
I have big hopes for Mono anyway for the cross-platform scripting...
#64
thanks
08/15/2006 (4:47 pm)
I have two questions: Is there an actual date on the torque x? Also, I know you will be able to export the current verison of torque projects over, but will you need the current verison of torque and torque shader or can I just get torque x and began prototyping? thanks
#65
Will we have an easy way to verify someone is a license holder (currently only TGE info in profile) or just continue the current practice of posting a link and password to the source in the private forums?
Should we get a field added to our profiles for our gamer tags? ;)
08/15/2006 (5:42 pm)
So since it requires sharing of source, that means we are pretty much limited to sharing our games with other ((TGE || TGB) && TorqueX) license holders, right?Will we have an easy way to verify someone is a license holder (currently only TGE info in profile) or just continue the current practice of posting a link and password to the source in the private forums?
Should we get a field added to our profiles for our gamer tags? ;)
#66
08/15/2006 (5:51 pm)
On the XNA blog they mention that the whole "share your souce" thing is a hole that will be plugged as soon as they can. Not something to worry about long term.
#67
I wanted to get Torque Game Builder but now I think I'm waiting for Torque X. It seems like this baby will really, really rock. Regardless if you will be developing for XBox360, Windows PC or both ;)
08/15/2006 (6:01 pm)
I wounder how much Torque X will cost and when it will be available?I wanted to get Torque Game Builder but now I think I'm waiting for Torque X. It seems like this baby will really, really rock. Regardless if you will be developing for XBox360, Windows PC or both ;)
#68
Sad indeed. I really thought we were on the way to .net being a viable alternative to c++ for games, but this simple statement makes it clear that we are not, and that possibly the .net version being used by XNA is not a full implementation of the framework.
That being the case, does GG have any plans to make a proper .net version of Torque? I have no interested in publishing for the XBOX360 or any console, I just want to use C# in VS2k5 rather than C++.
08/15/2006 (6:15 pm)
Quote:Torque X is limited by what functionality Game Studio Express provides, so no, there will not be much in the way of networking, or enhanced binary distribution until such time as Microsoft provides that functionality.
Sad indeed. I really thought we were on the way to .net being a viable alternative to c++ for games, but this simple statement makes it clear that we are not, and that possibly the .net version being used by XNA is not a full implementation of the framework.
That being the case, does GG have any plans to make a proper .net version of Torque? I have no interested in publishing for the XBOX360 or any console, I just want to use C# in VS2k5 rather than C++.
#69
As the Torque X project page mentions, no date has been established.
Also, I'm not sure where you read that you can export current versions of torque projects over (to Torque X I assume you mean), but that is not currently true.
Game Studio Express, then XNA "Live Anywhere" framework, and Torque X are all bleeding edge technology. MS has already said that Game Studio Professional (Spring-ish 2007) will have networking capability, but that portion of the framework isn't even implemented yet as far as I am aware.
GarageGames does not currently plan on a .net version of any of the Torque products that are not associated with the Game Studio Express/Professional project. This of course may change in the future.
08/15/2006 (6:34 pm)
Quote:
I have two questions: Is there an actual date on the torque x? Also, I know you will be able to export the current verison of torque projects over, but will you need the current verison of torque and torque shader or can I just get torque x and began prototyping?
As the Torque X project page mentions, no date has been established.
Also, I'm not sure where you read that you can export current versions of torque projects over (to Torque X I assume you mean), but that is not currently true.
Quote:
Sad indeed. I really thought we were on the way to .net being a viable alternative to c++ for games, but this simple statement makes it clear that we are not, and that possibly the .net version being used by XNA is not a full implementation of the framework.
Game Studio Express, then XNA "Live Anywhere" framework, and Torque X are all bleeding edge technology. MS has already said that Game Studio Professional (Spring-ish 2007) will have networking capability, but that portion of the framework isn't even implemented yet as far as I am aware.
GarageGames does not currently plan on a .net version of any of the Torque products that are not associated with the Game Studio Express/Professional project. This of course may change in the future.
#70
thank you
08/15/2006 (6:57 pm)
Is it going to be two different torque X? one for the shader and on for torque or does it work for both ?thank you
#71
I think he was referring to the following statement on the Torque X site:
08/15/2006 (7:01 pm)
Quote:Also, I'm not sure where you read that you can export current versions of torque projects over (to Torque X I assume you mean), but that is not currently true.
I think he was referring to the following statement on the Torque X site:
Quote:...,you can start building your game in Torque Game Builder now, then port it over to Torque X when it's available and use it in conjunction with XNA Game Studio Express to run it on the Xbox 360!
#72
Fair enough. It's not exactly what I was hoping for, but at least it's a step in the right direction. It definitely looks like its more aimed at the xbox rather than the pc though.
08/15/2006 (7:03 pm)
Quote:Game Studio Express, then XNA "Live Anywhere" framework, and Torque X are all bleeding edge technology. MS has already said that Game Studio Professional (Spring-ish 2007) will have networking capability, but that portion of the framework isn't even implemented yet as far as I am aware.
GarageGames does not currently plan on a .net version of any of the Torque products that are not associated with the Game Studio Express/Professional project. This of course may change in the future.
Fair enough. It's not exactly what I was hoping for, but at least it's a step in the right direction. It definitely looks like its more aimed at the xbox rather than the pc though.
#73
Also I'm a C# lover and C++ was the cause I have never bought Torque (I am able to code in C++ but I don't like it). That's why I wanted to get the Torque Game Builder and that's also why I'm really looking forward to Torque X. As long as the indie license of Torque X will be the same price range as Torque ($100 - $150) I think I will order Torque X the first day you can get it.
08/15/2006 (7:19 pm)
Well, I think XNA is sogreat because it breaks down the borders and boundaries that kept PC devs from the console. To do so it must shrink the available features to a pack that both plattforms share. No problem for me, I rather have a lightweight clear oriented framework then a blown and heavy one.Also I'm a C# lover and C++ was the cause I have never bought Torque (I am able to code in C++ but I don't like it). That's why I wanted to get the Torque Game Builder and that's also why I'm really looking forward to Torque X. As long as the indie license of Torque X will be the same price range as Torque ($100 - $150) I think I will order Torque X the first day you can get it.
#74
08/15/2006 (8:07 pm)
@Sebstian: Ahh, that part is correct. I was thinking TGE/TSE projects, not TGB ones.
Torque Owner Jason Swearingen
They are trying to better integrate the art pipelines, and other game-dev related features.
as for how TorqueX will fit into the picture, well I have some insight, and lots of opinions, but regardless, I'm sure we will have a clear picture of TorqueX's role, soon enough.