Twitch + MMO = Naughty
by Jonathon Stevens · in General Discussion · 08/03/2006 (1:58 pm) · 28 replies
I've seen a few posts here and there where people talk about adding twitch to an MMO or even building MMOFPS's. I don't think an MMOFPS is realistic based on today's technology. My point is backed up by the Godfather of virtual worlds Mr. Richard Bartle in his text 'Designing Virtual Worlds':
"In a regular computer game, players can be expected to make timed runs through windmill sails or giant steam pistons or pendulum scythes, but in a virtual world there's no guarantee that when the player sees a gap on their client the server is actually implementing one. For this reason, players can never be called on to make reflex actions, which means virtual worlds have little or no twitch."
Lag happens to ever person on the planet. It doesn't matter if you are sitting in the building next to the servers. If you aren't directly on the network or even server machine, you will experience lag, albeit small, but it still exists.
Hell even CS:S has slight lag even when I have a ping of < 25 on a Minnesota server.
Thoughts?
"In a regular computer game, players can be expected to make timed runs through windmill sails or giant steam pistons or pendulum scythes, but in a virtual world there's no guarantee that when the player sees a gap on their client the server is actually implementing one. For this reason, players can never be called on to make reflex actions, which means virtual worlds have little or no twitch."
Lag happens to ever person on the planet. It doesn't matter if you are sitting in the building next to the servers. If you aren't directly on the network or even server machine, you will experience lag, albeit small, but it still exists.
Hell even CS:S has slight lag even when I have a ping of < 25 on a Minnesota server.
Thoughts?
About the author
With a few casual games under his belt as CEO of Last Straw Productions, Jonathon created the increasingly popular Indie MMO Game Developers Conference which. Following the success of IMGDC a new MMOG fan event called LFG Expo will debut in June of 2010.
#2
08/03/2006 (2:46 pm)
Since Lag exist every take it and let your player know that it does happen. Keep it to a minimum but move on. If you have played the game Neocron you will see a "near" twitch system in place. This had to be one of the best games I have ever played. www.neocron.com One of the things I notice is that when lag happen it didnt effect game play much more than any other MMO would be affected by lag. There are some great idea that can take place on a twitch MMO. I have flushed out some really good ideas for a FPSMMO it would be an awesome idea and I think it can be done with enough server horse power. Are you looking to make one??
#3
Just a shame they didn't really add anything much to the game ever so it just faded away as people got bored with lack of new content.
08/03/2006 (3:19 pm)
Planetside was a successful MMOFPS.Just a shame they didn't really add anything much to the game ever so it just faded away as people got bored with lack of new content.
#4
I really don't see what the difference is between CS:S (which is extremely twitch) and whatever online game you're making. I guess your point is, CS is smaller scale than a typical MMO.
08/03/2006 (3:59 pm)
Yeah, Neocron did this to a pretty good degree.I really don't see what the difference is between CS:S (which is extremely twitch) and whatever online game you're making. I guess your point is, CS is smaller scale than a typical MMO.
#5
08/03/2006 (4:01 pm)
Heh heh I play Dark Age of Camelot and after playing a round of Tomb Raider: Legend, I snicker at the thought of combining the two.
#6
CS:S has bad lag for a multiplayer game. You pretty much need to aim just behind the head of a person's walking trail to actually get a hs most of the time. If the enemy is moving, you don't aim directly at them if you want a faster, more accurate kill.
Take that and add 1k more people to it and you have a HORRIBLE system of lag. You would end up shooting far behind a person to actually get the kill.
MMO technology just can't really attain this from what I've seen. You speak of Neocron, but what exactly did they do? SWG wasn't twitch at all, it still AIMED for you, you just needed to click (or hotkey) the hotbar items. True twitch is aim and shoot, not just click and shoot.
08/03/2006 (4:26 pm)
The problem with an MMO is that as more and more people join it, more and more NPCs are added, more and more interactions occur, then you start noticing a problem.CS:S has bad lag for a multiplayer game. You pretty much need to aim just behind the head of a person's walking trail to actually get a hs most of the time. If the enemy is moving, you don't aim directly at them if you want a faster, more accurate kill.
Take that and add 1k more people to it and you have a HORRIBLE system of lag. You would end up shooting far behind a person to actually get the kill.
MMO technology just can't really attain this from what I've seen. You speak of Neocron, but what exactly did they do? SWG wasn't twitch at all, it still AIMED for you, you just needed to click (or hotkey) the hotbar items. True twitch is aim and shoot, not just click and shoot.
#7
08/03/2006 (4:37 pm)
What is cs:S 
#9
"was" "faded away" ?!
I still play Planetside and by no means has it gone away. Just tonight on the european server we had 2 population locks on continents with a queue of about 20-ish on one of them.
Planetside is prove to the contrary that an mmofps is possible as are mmo "twitch" games (FPSs are the definition of twitch imo) One important thing to take into account is the client side aiming it uses (to great effect imo)
08/03/2006 (5:13 pm)
@ Ian Winter:"was" "faded away" ?!
I still play Planetside and by no means has it gone away. Just tonight on the european server we had 2 population locks on continents with a queue of about 20-ish on one of them.
Planetside is prove to the contrary that an mmofps is possible as are mmo "twitch" games (FPSs are the definition of twitch imo) One important thing to take into account is the client side aiming it uses (to great effect imo)
#10
What do you mean? With the SWG NGE you have to keep your mouse pointer over the target and click your mouse to shoot. Is this not aiming?
The spaceship combat part is also twitch. Requires you to manuever and target your enemy in the reticle.
They just released a patch this week I believe to introduce a target lock back into the game though.
Steve
08/03/2006 (5:22 pm)
@Jonathan,What do you mean? With the SWG NGE you have to keep your mouse pointer over the target and click your mouse to shoot. Is this not aiming?
The spaceship combat part is also twitch. Requires you to manuever and target your enemy in the reticle.
They just released a patch this week I believe to introduce a target lock back into the game though.
Steve
#11
I know the space combat required twitch, but up to that point the rest was not.
SWG took a great system and completely changed it like a bunch of *beep*ing morons.
So in Planetside, you can get thousands on a server? You have to aim and shoot and it doesn't 'auto-aim' or 'semi-auto-aim' for you?
08/03/2006 (6:24 pm)
Hmm... when was that change? I stayed in SWG till they switched to a class system.I know the space combat required twitch, but up to that point the rest was not.
SWG took a great system and completely changed it like a bunch of *beep*ing morons.
So in Planetside, you can get thousands on a server? You have to aim and shoot and it doesn't 'auto-aim' or 'semi-auto-aim' for you?
#12
The first was called the CU (Combat Upgrade). That made combat more like EQ2 style with tanks, DPS, healers etc..
Then, almost right away they sprung the NGE (New Game Enhancements) on the community. This is what almost ended the game for everyone. A very large portion of their subscriber base left the game because of it.
While the CU was still the normal RPG style target lock combat, the NGE brought a new style where you must point your mouse cursor over the target and keep it there while you press the mouse fire button.
Since that time however, and with a publish this week I believe, they have re-instated some sort of target-lock once again.
It seems so many people have complained and quit that they slowly start putting back some features that shouldn't have been removed to begin with.
I think anyone doing a game should look at the SWG fiasco as a way *not* to do business.
It's an interesting read though. You should do a search on the web for a better description than what I'm capable of.
Steve
08/03/2006 (6:39 pm)
Well, SWG went through two major changes. The first was called the CU (Combat Upgrade). That made combat more like EQ2 style with tanks, DPS, healers etc..
Then, almost right away they sprung the NGE (New Game Enhancements) on the community. This is what almost ended the game for everyone. A very large portion of their subscriber base left the game because of it.
While the CU was still the normal RPG style target lock combat, the NGE brought a new style where you must point your mouse cursor over the target and keep it there while you press the mouse fire button.
Since that time however, and with a publish this week I believe, they have re-instated some sort of target-lock once again.
It seems so many people have complained and quit that they slowly start putting back some features that shouldn't have been removed to begin with.
I think anyone doing a game should look at the SWG fiasco as a way *not* to do business.
It's an interesting read though. You should do a search on the web for a better description than what I'm capable of.
Steve
#13
They shoulda left it the way it was, if I wanted EQ2 style, I'D PLAY EQ2! ;)
08/03/2006 (6:42 pm)
I was with them through the CU and thought they fixed a LOT of things and broke a lot more. I was one of the pissed off people who left. The balancing they did with CU was great, the new combat system waz horrid.They shoulda left it the way it was, if I wanted EQ2 style, I'D PLAY EQ2! ;)
#14
I guess this whole push was probably to try and compete with WoW. They just added *talents* into the game, like guess who? WoW :)
Steve
08/03/2006 (6:51 pm)
Well, you should see the NGE. Lot's of things are broke.I guess this whole push was probably to try and compete with WoW. They just added *talents* into the game, like guess who? WoW :)
Steve
#15
Or in other words, the basis of the problem isn't due to the amount of data, bad network architecture design for a game, overwhelmed servers, etc. but the capacity of someone's connection and their route to the game's server : it's from how the Net is set up, and the physical constraints data travelling over it have to deal with...
It takes time for data to travel over wires, fiber optics, and then you add processing overhead as your data always goes through multiple nodes before reaching its destination...
Why so many games, twitch or otherwise suffer from additional "lag", stutters, and the like is because of bad network infrastructure design for the most part (unsufficient server ressources, too much unneeded data being communicated, etc.), but also bad scene management, and the likes.
MMO twitch games have been possible for quite a while, Planetside being an excellent example of good, if not very good execution : the rare times I experienced nasty fps drops in it, wasn't from data being transferred, but because my gfx quality settings were too high for my PC, e.g it was a localized data problem in trying to render too many things in high detail. Once I changed the settings to something more reasonable, it just worked, even in massive outdoor firefights, with voice comms on.
And yes, planetside is a real shooter : you have to aim, sometimes lead your target to make up for movement and weapon velocity, etc.
Real lag can be dealt with in many different ways that are well documented, since twitch games on modem existed after all, and real lag is a fact of networked communications, even with broadband...
Why the Auction House in the Dwarven city in WoW is so "laggy" has more to do with the network infrastructure, data handling and scene management in that game than with actual lag, and it's not a twitch game
08/03/2006 (7:00 pm)
Lag is network latency (ping) and packet loss, period : it has nothing to do with overwhelmed servers, etc. Or in other words, the basis of the problem isn't due to the amount of data, bad network architecture design for a game, overwhelmed servers, etc. but the capacity of someone's connection and their route to the game's server : it's from how the Net is set up, and the physical constraints data travelling over it have to deal with...
It takes time for data to travel over wires, fiber optics, and then you add processing overhead as your data always goes through multiple nodes before reaching its destination...
Why so many games, twitch or otherwise suffer from additional "lag", stutters, and the like is because of bad network infrastructure design for the most part (unsufficient server ressources, too much unneeded data being communicated, etc.), but also bad scene management, and the likes.
MMO twitch games have been possible for quite a while, Planetside being an excellent example of good, if not very good execution : the rare times I experienced nasty fps drops in it, wasn't from data being transferred, but because my gfx quality settings were too high for my PC, e.g it was a localized data problem in trying to render too many things in high detail. Once I changed the settings to something more reasonable, it just worked, even in massive outdoor firefights, with voice comms on.
And yes, planetside is a real shooter : you have to aim, sometimes lead your target to make up for movement and weapon velocity, etc.
Real lag can be dealt with in many different ways that are well documented, since twitch games on modem existed after all, and real lag is a fact of networked communications, even with broadband...
Why the Auction House in the Dwarven city in WoW is so "laggy" has more to do with the network infrastructure, data handling and scene management in that game than with actual lag, and it's not a twitch game
#16
@Nicolas - I'm no network guy (programmer or engineer) so I'm talking based on my understanding of these things. I'm in no way implying that I have any clue to what the hell I'm saying! Having said that, if I have two servers, one doing nothing but sitting there (outside of the standard OS processes working) and the other having millions of transactions on a db every second, then I'd venture to guess that lag would exist since the bandwidth coming TO that machine is less. I don't get where you come from in saying that has no effect when the more that's happening, and more players using that server, the less bandwidth there is for you as a player to use, meaning higher ping. Am I way off base here?
08/03/2006 (7:44 pm)
@M-theory - which is where they went wrong. you don't change your entire game play to compete, you build a new damn game.@Nicolas - I'm no network guy (programmer or engineer) so I'm talking based on my understanding of these things. I'm in no way implying that I have any clue to what the hell I'm saying! Having said that, if I have two servers, one doing nothing but sitting there (outside of the standard OS processes working) and the other having millions of transactions on a db every second, then I'd venture to guess that lag would exist since the bandwidth coming TO that machine is less. I don't get where you come from in saying that has no effect when the more that's happening, and more players using that server, the less bandwidth there is for you as a player to use, meaning higher ping. Am I way off base here?
#17
That would be a processing delay on the machine with the transactions, unless you're saying that other players are connected to it and that's the bottleneck, which rarely is the case if you're running the server at a datacenter.
The traditional meaning of 'lag' is a delay from your computer to the destination only, which is what Nicolas is getting at. If the server is loaded with stuff to process, the packet still arrives but the actual event and response might be delayed.
If you're talking a bottleneck in the bandwidth of the receiver, then you're correct in that it will produce lag. But that should never ever happen.
08/04/2006 (1:35 am)
@ Jonathon:That would be a processing delay on the machine with the transactions, unless you're saying that other players are connected to it and that's the bottleneck, which rarely is the case if you're running the server at a datacenter.
Quote:
I don't get where you come from in saying that has no effect when the more that's happening, and more players using that server, the less bandwidth there is for you as a player to use, meaning higher ping. Am I way off base here?
The traditional meaning of 'lag' is a delay from your computer to the destination only, which is what Nicolas is getting at. If the server is loaded with stuff to process, the packet still arrives but the actual event and response might be delayed.
If you're talking a bottleneck in the bandwidth of the receiver, then you're correct in that it will produce lag. But that should never ever happen.
#18
take a 64 oz big bottle of root beer
2 people want to drink there plenty for both of them
64 people what a drink thats 1 oz each
now double that and double that .... see it gets obvious
that networking has a limit game designers need to design
with system limits or get better server capabilities
but true even at a 200 ping most games are smooth
now 45 6k poly avatars all in same spot thats not net lag
thats your video card asking you to read the specs on the box
one more time
08/04/2006 (7:48 pm)
Bandwidth is like a bottle of soda poptake a 64 oz big bottle of root beer
2 people want to drink there plenty for both of them
64 people what a drink thats 1 oz each
now double that and double that .... see it gets obvious
that networking has a limit game designers need to design
with system limits or get better server capabilities
but true even at a 200 ping most games are smooth
now 45 6k poly avatars all in same spot thats not net lag
thats your video card asking you to read the specs on the box
one more time
#19
Need to be careful when you use generalizations like "I dont think an MMOFPS is realistic.." ;)
One thing I can tell you for certain is that anything IS possible. As has been pointed out, the latest SOE incarnation of SWG is 100% FPS. Planetside has literally hundreds of people on screen at a time with minimal lag. And World of Warcraft PvP is insane.
It's all about the design of your datastream. Again I assure you absolutely anythign is possible as long as you design your datastream appropriately. Know the limitations of your engine, your database, your hardware (client side) and design the game with those things in mind. I've re-written my database connector so many times now its not even funny. I dont have anything functioning in my game right now except an Auth server, Login/patch server and account management. I have a little alpha zone that you can run around in and kill Kork 100 times but thats it. I've been building the back end of my game for 3 years now =) I can't tell you how many times I've had to scrap months of work due to design flaws. I Am really glad to be learning so much about data flow while doing this though.
Dont start a game project with false perceptions of your limitations. Your limitations are really defined by your goals. If your goal is to build a FPS MMO then design your backend around that. Torque really is a truely amazing platform. It can handle almost anything you throw at it. (And I've thrown a lot at it =) )
Good luck mate.
08/06/2006 (12:39 am)
Jonathon:Need to be careful when you use generalizations like "I dont think an MMOFPS is realistic.." ;)
One thing I can tell you for certain is that anything IS possible. As has been pointed out, the latest SOE incarnation of SWG is 100% FPS. Planetside has literally hundreds of people on screen at a time with minimal lag. And World of Warcraft PvP is insane.
It's all about the design of your datastream. Again I assure you absolutely anythign is possible as long as you design your datastream appropriately. Know the limitations of your engine, your database, your hardware (client side) and design the game with those things in mind. I've re-written my database connector so many times now its not even funny. I dont have anything functioning in my game right now except an Auth server, Login/patch server and account management. I have a little alpha zone that you can run around in and kill Kork 100 times but thats it. I've been building the back end of my game for 3 years now =) I can't tell you how many times I've had to scrap months of work due to design flaws. I Am really glad to be learning so much about data flow while doing this though.
Dont start a game project with false perceptions of your limitations. Your limitations are really defined by your goals. If your goal is to build a FPS MMO then design your backend around that. Torque really is a truely amazing platform. It can handle almost anything you throw at it. (And I've thrown a lot at it =) )
Good luck mate.
#20
08/06/2006 (6:09 am)
Johnathon I think you could really filll a nice little niche in the market place with a "well done" MMOFPS. It wont be the easiest project to under take that is for sure. I think if you are able to marry both the good and the bad from a FPS system and a Tick Based system (eq or soething like that) you could have a really unique play experience. Just like Flybynight said it will all depend on your traffic management and the hardware you get to run the game. The graphics on Neocron, which is the closest I have come to playing something like this, was on the low end I guess to help mitigate some of that performance. If the CPU was not busy painting the screen it could work more on managing the netowrk traffic. How many people are on your team?
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I guess I should add something constructive to my post.
The SWG NGE is a perfect example in my opinion of this. They took away the RPG style combat in favor of a more twitch-based style of combat.
It didn't work. They are now implementing stuff back into the design like auto-aim (target lock) like they had previously.
The twitch style combat works for the space game in SWG but that is a totally separate system.
Steve