Your thoughts on recent Torque reviews
by Mark Barner · in General Discussion · 07/22/2006 (12:18 pm) · 105 replies
Recently I read some reviews of Torque Game Engine on Devmaster.net.
The one that cracked me up the most was this:
Quote:NOTE: The ratings and reviews below reflect the opinions of their respective authors and as such, do not reflect the opinions of DevMaster.net or its staff. The reviews are not moderated and some are completely inaccurate. Therefore, most reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. If you find any inaccurate or inappropriate reviews, let us know by stating in detail why you think the review should be removed and any links/documents that support your contention.Now as the note above the reviews states 'taken with a grain of salt', I look at negative reviews as a way to improve a product. I was wondering what you thought of the last eight reviews in the thread. I know not everyone will like Torque.
The one that cracked me up the most was this:
Quote:What do you think of these reviews and if you agree with them what you think should be done to correct the problems these people are talking about? Or do you think it is just their lack of ability to learn and use Torque? This is not to create a bitching session for game engines, I am just curious on why on all of sudden the negative reviews about Torque. One question I have is that is these reviews based off of a certain version... mac, windows or linux. At least two of them mentioned being mac users.
Don't waste your money or Time
Posted by: at Jul 19, 2006
I had this engine, and I'm a C++ Programmer and I thought it sucked. The features are outdated and the support from the people is not their.( Though the community support is dead!!!) The learning curve is really high and the tools and stability is low.
Bottom Line
#83
Bullshit. The people who posted that is not nessecarily affiliated with Unity, as little as you and I are affiliated with GarageGames.
07/25/2006 (3:49 pm)
Quote:
Wow, now this is a scandal! I used to think Unity was a rather reputable engine but now... I don't know what to think...
Bullshit. The people who posted that is not nessecarily affiliated with Unity, as little as you and I are affiliated with GarageGames.
#85
They weren't directing it at you. Hilarious overreaction, though.
T.
Edit: Tamed the quote, just in case he wants to take it back ;-)
07/25/2006 (4:09 pm)
Quote:@ stefan and Cliff
Get F***ed
They weren't directing it at you. Hilarious overreaction, though.
T.
Edit: Tamed the quote, just in case he wants to take it back ;-)
#87
I don't know where you are... but here... you can blame the heat. It's so damn hot here. You could kill someone and I think a plee of temp heat insanity would fly.
07/25/2006 (4:47 pm)
@Mincentro Deadalus SlayerI don't know where you are... but here... you can blame the heat. It's so damn hot here. You could kill someone and I think a plee of temp heat insanity would fly.
#89
I just pointed it out because I think some of the bad recent reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt. Torque is currently in a "postion of power," so it is probably best to just learn what valid lessons they offer from them, maybe laugh (or cry) a bit, and then move on.
07/25/2006 (6:04 pm)
I don't think its Unity's fault at all. Just some overzealous users. I just pointed it out because I think some of the bad recent reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt. Torque is currently in a "postion of power," so it is probably best to just learn what valid lessons they offer from them, maybe laugh (or cry) a bit, and then move on.
#91
An Extra UV channel for better multitexturing
texture layers to make better use of the extra mapping channel (custom lightmapping)
Extra blend modes like:
[b]modulate_x2[b]
Allows for bloom effects when combined with alpha much like the POP series without using shaders (Even DX7 supports this)
[b]colour_op_ex blend_current_alpha[b]
This blend mode will allow you to mask between two texture layers by using a alpha as a mask allowing you to blend say rust and metal, or a dirt track in grass and is a DX8 era feature.
Most video cards dating back to 2001 support these features and a lot more thats missing in TGE, and as far as I can tell TSE too).
Even Blitz3D's DX7 renderer handles them, along with vertex shinyness, which makes many of their DX7 rendered games look superior to TGE and more in line with the better PS2 games of the last couple of years.
07/26/2006 (8:19 am)
On the graphics front TGE lacks a lot of even basic DX7 graphical features which is dissapointing to say the least. With a few relatively small mods to the core engine it could be SO much better.An Extra UV channel for better multitexturing
texture layers to make better use of the extra mapping channel (custom lightmapping)
Extra blend modes like:
[b]modulate_x2[b]
Allows for bloom effects when combined with alpha much like the POP series without using shaders (Even DX7 supports this)
[b]colour_op_ex blend_current_alpha[b]
This blend mode will allow you to mask between two texture layers by using a alpha as a mask allowing you to blend say rust and metal, or a dirt track in grass and is a DX8 era feature.
Most video cards dating back to 2001 support these features and a lot more thats missing in TGE, and as far as I can tell TSE too).
Even Blitz3D's DX7 renderer handles them, along with vertex shinyness, which makes many of their DX7 rendered games look superior to TGE and more in line with the better PS2 games of the last couple of years.
#92
a review where the author claims to be a C++ programmer and finds the
engine and community to be lacking severely had better start by
redefining his level of knowledge and efforts online
1st I have very little time with C++ compilers since about 9 years ago
2nd I have a relatively short time with Torque community
since sometime in April of this year
I have already compiled a 100% complete RTS 1.4 VS2005/VC8 solution
and provided it to the community
I am nearing completion on several feature additions to base RTS
and a TLK merge with a VS2005/VC8 solution
had it not been for the fantastic community support none of what I am doing
would be possible
still for the investment considering the final outcome in product of a TGE
based publish there is no real competitor
yes the downloads dont neatly install/ xtract on top of one another
yes you need to understand alot about the C++ language and need
to be familiar with compiler version differences
without this you need to buy a $250,000 to millions
prefab game generation kit with a silent partner on your back
or settle for bug ridden low end packages that still even with
some feature advantages have no real hope of producing a product
that will compare to nicely built TGE publish
I spent 2 years prior to purchasing TGE in looking at one engine solution after another
my choice was made fully realizing the amount of work and time I would need
to build my demo/project from a TGE base
I have absolutely no regrets at this time or foresee any in the future
any snags I encounter I just chalk up to learning more than I already know
and that makes the whole process fun and hard at that same time
07/26/2006 (8:19 am)
I would say thisa review where the author claims to be a C++ programmer and finds the
engine and community to be lacking severely had better start by
redefining his level of knowledge and efforts online
1st I have very little time with C++ compilers since about 9 years ago
2nd I have a relatively short time with Torque community
since sometime in April of this year
I have already compiled a 100% complete RTS 1.4 VS2005/VC8 solution
and provided it to the community
I am nearing completion on several feature additions to base RTS
and a TLK merge with a VS2005/VC8 solution
had it not been for the fantastic community support none of what I am doing
would be possible
still for the investment considering the final outcome in product of a TGE
based publish there is no real competitor
yes the downloads dont neatly install/ xtract on top of one another
yes you need to understand alot about the C++ language and need
to be familiar with compiler version differences
without this you need to buy a $250,000 to millions
prefab game generation kit with a silent partner on your back
or settle for bug ridden low end packages that still even with
some feature advantages have no real hope of producing a product
that will compare to nicely built TGE publish
I spent 2 years prior to purchasing TGE in looking at one engine solution after another
my choice was made fully realizing the amount of work and time I would need
to build my demo/project from a TGE base
I have absolutely no regrets at this time or foresee any in the future
any snags I encounter I just chalk up to learning more than I already know
and that makes the whole process fun and hard at that same time
#93
TGE is the entry level engine, if you need something more GG has two other 3D engines to choose from (TLK and TSE).
For 5 years you've been on about the same 'issues' in Torque. Why not solve them instead of just complaining? As far as I can tell all of your points have simple solutions to them.
I recall your team created a mesh format that allowed you to do this very thing, why not use it?
Constructor allows you to wrap light maps onto static meshes and import them into Torque.
The Torque Lighting Kit supports this as well as a ton of other lighting and rendering models.
There has been a resource for performing texture masks on interiors for years. If you need masks on DTS objects that can be added in a few hours.
Blitz is a language, Torque is an engine. If you have to write an engine in Blitz to make use of these features, why not just add them to Torque. It certainly sounds easier to me.
Though the point that Torque looks a bit dated is valid, 5 years of constant complaining without doing something about it is certainly not. I don't mind these concerns from newer community members as they don't know what resources exist or understand the relationship between all of the Torque based products, but you've been here for years.
07/26/2006 (9:21 am)
Adrian,TGE is the entry level engine, if you need something more GG has two other 3D engines to choose from (TLK and TSE).
For 5 years you've been on about the same 'issues' in Torque. Why not solve them instead of just complaining? As far as I can tell all of your points have simple solutions to them.
Quote:...With a few relatively small mods to the core engine it could be SO much better.
An Extra UV channel for better multitexturing
I recall your team created a mesh format that allowed you to do this very thing, why not use it?
Quote:texture layers to make better use of the extra mapping channel (custom lightmapping)
Constructor allows you to wrap light maps onto static meshes and import them into Torque.
Quote:modulate_x2
Allows for bloom effects when combined with alpha much like the POP series without using shaders (Even DX7 supports this)
The Torque Lighting Kit supports this as well as a ton of other lighting and rendering models.
Quote:colour_op_ex blend_current_alpha
This blend mode will allow you to mask between two texture layers by using a alpha as a mask allowing you to blend say rust and metal, or a dirt track in grass and is a DX8 era feature.
There has been a resource for performing texture masks on interiors for years. If you need masks on DTS objects that can be added in a few hours.
Quote:Even Blitz3D's DX7 renderer handles them, along with vertex shinyness, which makes many of their DX7 rendered games look superior to TGE and more in line with the better PS2 games of the last couple of years.
Blitz is a language, Torque is an engine. If you have to write an engine in Blitz to make use of these features, why not just add them to Torque. It certainly sounds easier to me.
Though the point that Torque looks a bit dated is valid, 5 years of constant complaining without doing something about it is certainly not. I don't mind these concerns from newer community members as they don't know what resources exist or understand the relationship between all of the Torque based products, but you've been here for years.
#94
It's true that we got Blitz 3D's format working in TGE, unfortunately I'm not a coder and don't have control of the source. The loader and renderer as well as collisions are about 70 - 80% done. But finding a coder to finish off the glitches for free is nigh on impossible.
The reason that DTS should support these things out of the box would be so that the numerous exporters for 3D apps can make proper use of them.
I'm currently using Ogre with an outstanding art pipeline from 3DS max. Would be willing to pay $500 for the equivalent in TSE, which is how much the pro verson for ogre costs.
[quote] For 5 years you've been on about the same \\\'issues\\\' in Torque. Why not solve them instead of just complaining? As far as I can tell all of your points have simple solutions to them.
Though the point that Torque looks a bit dated is valid, 5 years of constant complaining without doing something about it is certainly not. I don\\\'t mind these concerns from newer community members as they don\\\'t know what resources exist or understand the relationship between all of the Torque based products, but you\\\'ve been here for years. [quote]
I have made an effort to get those basic features I wanted into TGE via the loader you mentioned. But there's only so much time I can waste looking for someone to work on it for free under the terms I am allowed to offer. Don't know why you have to try and put me down over this stuff.
The art pipeline for DTS and the features the DTS format supports are one of the remaining trouble spots that put a lot of experienced artists off of using Torque products.
07/26/2006 (9:43 am)
It just seems incredible that these features are not built into the DTS format. It's true that we got Blitz 3D's format working in TGE, unfortunately I'm not a coder and don't have control of the source. The loader and renderer as well as collisions are about 70 - 80% done. But finding a coder to finish off the glitches for free is nigh on impossible.
The reason that DTS should support these things out of the box would be so that the numerous exporters for 3D apps can make proper use of them.
I'm currently using Ogre with an outstanding art pipeline from 3DS max. Would be willing to pay $500 for the equivalent in TSE, which is how much the pro verson for ogre costs.
[quote] For 5 years you've been on about the same \\\'issues\\\' in Torque. Why not solve them instead of just complaining? As far as I can tell all of your points have simple solutions to them.
Though the point that Torque looks a bit dated is valid, 5 years of constant complaining without doing something about it is certainly not. I don\\\'t mind these concerns from newer community members as they don\\\'t know what resources exist or understand the relationship between all of the Torque based products, but you\\\'ve been here for years. [quote]
I have made an effort to get those basic features I wanted into TGE via the loader you mentioned. But there's only so much time I can waste looking for someone to work on it for free under the terms I am allowed to offer. Don't know why you have to try and put me down over this stuff.
The art pipeline for DTS and the features the DTS format supports are one of the remaining trouble spots that put a lot of experienced artists off of using Torque products.
#95
Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain endlessly.
Plenty of Torque-based games out there selling right now. If it doesn't work for you, find something else. Go buy A6 or Blitz or something and spend your time coding a game and not grousing on a forum. Use that energy constructively.
And have a nice day. ;-)
07/26/2006 (10:28 am)
I'll go ahead and say this, although I likely shouldn't:Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain endlessly.
Plenty of Torque-based games out there selling right now. If it doesn't work for you, find something else. Go buy A6 or Blitz or something and spend your time coding a game and not grousing on a forum. Use that energy constructively.
And have a nice day. ;-)
#96
Why act like these features are missing when they exist? That's what I don't understand. You seem to have very strict requirements for what your art pipeline must do to be considered complete, even if the same results can be achieved through other means. If you need a custom solution then you'll have to shell out money for custom coding (just like in any engine).
07/26/2006 (10:45 am)
I'm not trying to put you down. I'm pointing out that you've brought up the same issues many times when there are solutions. I understand they're not the solutions you're looking for, but other people are using Torque and its tool set very effectively.Why act like these features are missing when they exist? That's what I don't understand. You seem to have very strict requirements for what your art pipeline must do to be considered complete, even if the same results can be achieved through other means. If you need a custom solution then you'll have to shell out money for custom coding (just like in any engine).
#97
I myself don't use torque for this very reason, and think its a real shame. Which is why I bring it up once or twice a year. I finaly bought it last november, gave it a good once over and don't regret contributing my $100. Just disappointed that certain areas get neglected for whatever reason.
07/26/2006 (11:22 am)
Just seems silly to not have those features built in. Without standard features things don't get supported and no one benefits. Anyway I'm done talking. I just know a lot of people that refuse to use Torque despite the engine being quite nice. Simply because of the clunky art pipeline.I myself don't use torque for this very reason, and think its a real shame. Which is why I bring it up once or twice a year. I finaly bought it last november, gave it a good once over and don't regret contributing my $100. Just disappointed that certain areas get neglected for whatever reason.
#98
07/26/2006 (11:56 am)
Happy 100th post!
#99
At this point, even if you purchase the engine, if your are still unhappy with your purchase, you can still obtain a refund through numerous channels up to 30 days after purchase with proper cause.
If you don't like it, feel free to use something else. We get a good number of happy customers through here, however occasionally our products may not satisfy someone's expectations or needs, and we try to make our website, product expectations, and policies as transparent to the end user as possible.
Thanks for understanding, we appreciate any and all of your business, really. We'll keep trying to make the best products we physically can, even if they aren't everything that's expected from everyone. :)
07/27/2006 (12:08 am)
It's simple. We provide numerous demos and information on the engine, as much as possible without exposing actual source, to the end-user before purchase. We even put our art-exporters out there for free. With the exception of private resources, many resources and large parts of the community are wide-open to check out. It should be pretty apparent to the customer what is to be recieved for $100.00 from GarageGames.At this point, even if you purchase the engine, if your are still unhappy with your purchase, you can still obtain a refund through numerous channels up to 30 days after purchase with proper cause.
If you don't like it, feel free to use something else. We get a good number of happy customers through here, however occasionally our products may not satisfy someone's expectations or needs, and we try to make our website, product expectations, and policies as transparent to the end user as possible.
Thanks for understanding, we appreciate any and all of your business, really. We'll keep trying to make the best products we physically can, even if they aren't everything that's expected from everyone. :)
Torque 3D Owner iHugMedia
Anybody reported them yet?