RPG Magic System Design

#41 Emai me if your interested.

#42 Wish lists and "what was cool" aside, it really depends on what you want your magic FOR in your game.

If you have a standard squad-type fantasy game where you have warriors and wizards, then you want the wizards to traditionally be more vulnerable, stand at the back, casting long and flashy spells that provide effects you otherwise cannot get. The Baldur's Gate series illustrates this method clear as anything, and they use all the D+D spells which are described in terms of turns, and effect in gory detail.

You could do something more uniform, like in Final Fantasy, where everybody has various powers, some of which are magic, it's just the wizard spells tend to be flashier. The distinction between an ability and a spell is blurred in that style of game.

If it's a first person game where YOU are the wizard, then I would go much more for the mini-game approach people say is so cool: A system where the player has to design their own spells in a mini-game of combining appropriate elements and things, because spell design will be a critical factor.

In the RPGs I run, there's no "power source" to run dry - you can cast spells as much as you like, but that fits a game where everybody is throwing around powers. Power supplies are there to provide control, but it's not fun to run OUT when you need it, so hopefully it's something you can replenish like ammo. In Hexen and ShadowCaster you found little power-ups all over to replenish a dwindling power supply, and that was the game-designers way of forcing/helping you to FULLY explode the map he worked so hard to make :) - Is it good gameplay? It's standard. Does it make sense for a wizard to find ammo? Not certain.

It all comes down to what STYLE of game you are making: Squad based, fast moving, flashy - I wouldn't bother limiting.. FPS fast moving - powerups scattered.. but if your goal is to give the player a very unique feel of what it would be like to be a wizard fighting in a war, that takes more thought. It also depends a great deal on how you want to present "magic" in your game story. Is magic a cheat, a deal with dark powers that your wizard is using for a good cause but will be punished for? Is magic just a part of the world and you are a glittering hero fighting a good fight, super-hero type? Is magic dangerous and vile, and you must know what are you doing to employ it (a half-wizard, half-warrior..)

Or perhaps you are looking for the writing part? The text explanation of how magic "works" within the story of your game.. the elements, gods, materia, or anima behind it? We can probably help with that too.

#43 Andrew, you just used magic yourself, reviving 3 years old thread :P

#44 Mon Dieu. Back yet again. It's the Jason Voorhies of forum threads! *runs screaming down the street*

#45 I like spells and such to be learned similar to skills. Basically as you use them you get better at them. So as you gain skill at a spell, you could add features to the spell. For instance, the world-famous fireball spell. As you start, you can cast the fireball spell 50' range, 5' radius and it takes, say 10 seconds to cast. As you get better, you could not only make the range, Area of Effect, and Time to cast better, you could add bonus effects such as "Avoids obstacles in the way", or "No longer damages allies" or "Can cast multiple fireballs". I've never particularly liked level-based systems, I've always preferred skill-based character development. As you use a skill (or spell in this case), you increase it. It always seemed silly to me that you had to go beat something up to get better at smithing.

#46 @Sid - you make a good point about the level-based vs. skill based argument. However, the benefit to a level-based system is that it's easy to understand for the player (where is explicitly understood that a weapon skill of 15 is lower than a skill of 16 and higher than a skill of 14) and for the computer (IF enemyArmorClass > playerAttackSkill THEN print "You missed!"). Same way with spells. But I can see you're point about how a level-based system kind of takes away the magic from magic.

Part of the problem in a usage-based skill system, where continual use of the skill maintains or improves the skill slightly through general use, is that it's either totally divorced from reality (where the character reaches absolute god-like skill levels or becomes a fumbled fingered moron if he doesn't use each skill at least once per day) or it becomes a mind-numbing chore to accurately model the character's increasing powers (balancing the usage of the skill against the character's attributes, finding out where the upper limits are and how much "natural talent" they can get by with).

Steve Jackson's GURPS treats individual spells as skills, which is a fairly good system, to be sure. "Dungeon Siege" had a pretty good usage system, although they kept it simple by dividing the spells into two categories (Nature and Combat). I like the idea that, at higher levels, the spells themselves could take on different properties. One thing might be a neat little addition would be the customization of a spell, choosing what effects or enhancements to the spell that you as the character would like to have. It would add a degree of customization and strategy to the otherwise mundane "fireball." Do you make it longer ranged or harder hitting? Bigger in radius or bigger in length? Two fireballs or a spray of smaller ones? Those could present all sorts of challenges to a player.

One thing to keep in mind, as mentioned earlier, is the whole balance involved. Realistically, there's a practical upper limit to how far you can advance your skills. In the same way that you can overhone a knife blade, you can reach a point of diminishing returns on skill improvement. Too much practice should not translate out to bulked out skill levels. The ultimate arbiter of how far you can take your skills ought to be the inherent attributes of the character. Having a low grade moron ultimately be able to cast spells at the same level as a grand master, assuming that he has maintained the same level of intelligence the entire time.

#47 Orson Scott Card said in a book he wrote, How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, that it would be a good idea to let the caster take damage himself, like losing an arm or a leg, or his head. The catch is that he doesn't know what part of his body will be lost. (You could use a random # event to judge how much damage the person will take. This obviously will not work with a Diablo Clone though, because all the characters in Diablo 2 use magic more than anything else. (i.e. physical) Even the Barbarian as Berserk, Frenzy, and Whirlwind are considered magic.

#48 I know im just a mewbie but a good system woyld be one that uses the users mag rating as a percebtage. the higher the rating the higher the success rate of the spell will be. harder spells need higher mag stats in order to have a decent chance of casting and the lower level spells will have an increase in percentage showing the characters growth. i know its weird but its a thought.

#49 Ok i got an idea, i read this book, that when you say the word of power, the magic can apply to your weapon, or u can use it as a weapon.A level 1 can use all the same words as the level 10000000 or whatever, but a level one can't combine 2 or more together without dieing from the strain of casting it. the stronger you are (level) the more power ful magic u can use with the words of power. Each spell takes strength, if u use to big of a spell for your level, you can die, or become to exasted to fight. This is just an idea.
-Mike

#50 @Sid Clink

You said,"I like spells and such to be learned similar to skills. Basically as you use them you get better at them."

I said,"Bingo!"

Before:
You Advanced A Magery Level!

After:
You're Knowledge in Magery has increased! You have learned: ...

------------------------

Before:
Fireball is a 10th level spell. You do not meet the skill level needed to cast.

After:
Your skills in Wind, Fire, and Chaos magics are great yet you seem to have miscalculated a spell component and the Fireball Spell was cast unsuccessfully. You should try researching Fire Moss some more.

------------------------

Before:
You cast Fireball

After:
You succesfully cast your "Fireball Storm" spell. Five (5) Mages in the viscinity have noticed your form of magery.

------------------------

Before:
Spell - Fireball
Mana Req. - 20
Skill Req. - 10

After:
Knowledge Of "Fireball Storm" Spell -
Fire Knowledge - Expert
Wind Knowledge - High
Chaos Knowledge - Low
Components: This spell consumes - 1x Fire Moss, 1/2x Dove Feather, 3x Deamon's Blood
Mana Consumation Avg. - 22%
Succesful Casts - 27
Unsuccesful Casts - 68
Chance Of Casting...
Natural Aura Bonus - 30%
Intelligence Bonus - 20% (Fire Magery)
Mage Equipment Bonus - 3% (Lava Mage Armour)
Artifact Bonus - 15% (Chaos Stone)
-------------------------
Total Chance To Cast - 68%

You have learned -
Fire Moss can be pre-soaked with Deamon's Blood for faster casting.
Half of a Dove Feather makes for more accurate casting.
...

The entire skill system is done this way. This gets the player away from numbers and focused back on how to enjoy playing the game. Besides, the spell here isn't an automatic spell, like any of the spells, they are completely devoted to the skill of the character and how they are attempting to advance. All spells are created through trial and error, with knowledge as the tool to their creation.

- Christopher "Ronixus" Dapo

Edited For Clarity

#51 The idea creating a new and unique spells could be a great deal of fun. Players could buy, sell, and trade spells. My concern would be how intuitive is the user interface. I'm a firm believer in simplicity.

I would design the 'Spell Editor' in following manner: The spell inventory is saved in a 'spellbook' with empty 'spell' slots. The player unlocks a 'spell' slot as they increase in experience. Once a slot is opened it can be titled and its effect properties modified by adding/subtracting/swapping from a 'magic' points.

Spells often create some form of elemental or physical damage effect (ie: fire, lightning, ice, etc) and modify character attributes (sleep, poison, petrify, etc). Affected attributes values are adjusted by modifying magic points. The fun will be in creating spells with multiple effects.

Spells usually have really cool particles effects and animation during: invoke, cast, travel, and impact. The Spell Editor could have an built-in Special FX Editor as well to modify Particles and apply them to events.

The Spells can also effect a specific number Targets.

Anyhows, there are many properties to consider. Keeping the Spell editor User Friendly and producing unique spell effects would be the goal.

#52 I liked the guides in FFXI, you could incorperate something like that for magic in a game. Basicly, your charactor has his own level of experince for hp and things like that, but he has to build his spell level independly. First you get cure while your charactor magic skill is level 0. The more you use that spell the stronger his magic skill gets, thus letting his spells get stronger, cast them quicker, and able to learn more like cure 2 at magic skill lv 4. In FFXI it's basicly the same with the weapons, but the better your skill the better your accuracy and damage with that type of weapon and different weapon types you have to teach yourself to use them.

#53 You can download the "AD&D Players Handbook" and search for something like "AD&D Dungeon Master Hanbook" using kazaa or emule. All rules about combat and magic, encounters that you are looking for is explained like: how many time you can walk or explore whitout an enemy or a battle, if you cast a super spell combo you can get some magic item or get a experience bonus or make a magic attack using your magic items + spell + race advantages + environment traps for a very very very good bonus magic item, gold, mana,etc. This is for ad&d like games. But another playing method is using yous life points and your mana points (a magic energy of life depending the race. You can cast magic spells or priest spell to heal and you have to rest to recover some points or drink a formula.)

I think that in a good rpg game you have to sleep, eat, work or be thief, fight, learn read/write, swimm, hunting, fishing, make some spells and witchcraft, because if you fellows can do what you cannot is more interesting and fun.

#54 I hate micromanagement in RPG's. Feeding my character is annoying, as is sleeping to avoid fatigue.

Rather than downloading the D&D sourcebooks that cannot be legally used without licensing, it would be a better idea to download the open gaming SRD. You won't even have to use a p2p program to download it.

#55 Heres something completely different for you guys to think about.

Something that I've always wanted to do with magic is interact with objects with it. So imagine the system to be based on picking up objects. You could take an object and just toss it at someone, but the real magic comes when you convert those objects into spells.

Every object in the game has an element and a value assigned to it (ex. a burning log would be of the fire element and have a value of 3, where as something of more importance, such as a book of ancient dark secrets would have a higher point value). You can pick up an object and convert it to energy. Spells would have a point cost depending on how strong they are. So if you wanted to cast a simple fireball, you could pick up the burning log and cast three fireballs (since they only cost one fire point). However, if you wanted to summon a Hell Demon, not only would it have a high energy point cost, it would also require 2 different elements of energy (fire and dark). To do this, you will need to convert more than one object into energy.

In order to do this, you can hold up to four objects at a time (while they arent being used, the objects hover and orbit around your character). A drop down menu will show all the spells that are available for casting (it'll filter out the spells that arent of any use to you; you dont want to be an extremely powerful wizard firing weak little flares. Think of your reputation!). The individual spells can be taught to you academies around the world.

However what happens when you desperately need a certain type of energy but there are no objects of that element around to be found? You can use a conversion potion! The way to get conversion potions is to make them using your energy (its very simple: water potions are made using water energy, earth using earth points etc. etc.). Lower level potions are capable of converting weaker objects, while higher level potions can convert the stronger ones.

Wow, I've written all that already? I'm just coming up with all this stuff on the spot. It's probably a very bad system anyway; I can name a couple flaws already.

1.) The system is hard to use in the heat of battle since it requires many choices to be made by the user. So it probably won't be well-suited to realtime gameplay until it gets streamlined a little for easier use.
2.) It would be hard for a spellcaster to react immediately to an attacker since he has to gather up objects before he can fight. Though presumably, the spellcaster could just toss a random object at the enemy fairly easily.

Anyone have any solutions to these problems? Or even understand what the hell I've been rambling about all this time?

#56 Dungeon master had a great magic system, it used a combination of runes. Thing is, u could experiment with the runes and discover spells rather than having to find them.

#57 Nice JD ;)

#58 I think that we are missing the races and clases... for example: for a race like an elf, magic is his natural state, he does not need of nothing but his natural magic but a human needs of potions, and all kind of elements to do magic becouse it is not natural.

#59 After looking over the thread that was revived after three years in obscurity, i decided to do a lil more thinking. if you took three classes of spells, defensive, offensive, enchant, and summon. then take the basic elements, air, water, fire, earth, life, death, spirit. then added in an economy to the ability add strength points to increase its effectiveness. then a few aspects as to the target.Thats just a review of my prior idea. now heres the math of it all.

Spell class:
defensive: sheild, wall, aura
offensive : bolt, arc, ray, cone, cluster
enchant : self, freind, foe
summon : elemental, familar

targeting aspects:
area, single, multiple(Y)

etc etc

in short, the spell classes are roughly 4*(3^5^3^2 )
then we add in the elements 4*(3^5^3^2)*7
then the targeting aspects (4*(3^5^3^2)*7)+(3Y)
and to top it off the strength [(4*(3^5^3^2)*7)+(3Y)]*X

this is before you start adding in factors like hybrid elements, like Ice (in this case, air/water) or magma (fire/earth) and hybrid spell aspects, ressurect(summon/enchant)

and then you can add in rare and one use elements like Blood, (life/death) and such.

then you start heading into a great very large number i won't even dare to calculate.

Throw in an economy of skills, the more you use one element or spell type, the higher rank, if it falls to be the least used element it looses points. maintaining a balance, of sorts. and you can design the spells to be cascadeing. so you can use them in combos. if you place in option for recursiveness to cast other spells you have created(withing limits of course)

its almost as complex as a programming language.

whats your take on these ideas?

-John Weddington II