Torque Shader Engine being pirated

#41 HOLY SHIT,

I just wanted to say TSE is being pirated ... man talk about getting blown out of proportion.

The Trusted One

#42 "it is your DUTY to break a law that you have a moral objection to."

So if someone has a moral objection to not murdering someone, it is his duty to murder someone? Seems pretty silly to me.

-Okashira

#43 Actually Michael, you said something about for you pirating one thing like MP3s is ok, while some things you shouldn't like your dev tools. Thats where the topic took a major turn :P Then it took another turn for morals and killing minorities...lol.

#44 Okashira - Wow, talk about a straw-man argument.

Where would we be if Martin Luther King Jr. hadn't committed civil disobedience? Just because there are things that you SHOULDN'T commit civil disobedience over (such as murder, child pornography, and such), we shouldn't commit civil disobedience for ANYTHING?

If we don't fight the system when we disagree with it, nobody will.

#45 @Cliff
You seem to be getting "breaking the law" and "civil disobedience" confused.

Webster's definition of civil disobedience:
"refusal to obey governmental demands or commands especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing concessions from the government "

There is a fine line between that and breaking the law.

-Okashira

#46 I'd have to say that when I see a retarded expensive price on something like a CD or movie, I definitely think about pirating it to try and show the music/movie industry they are charging way too much. Which is a civil disobedience in my book cause I feel like I am making a stand to make a difference. And actually.. I think its working.. I went to walmart the other day and noticed classic movies like Predator, T2, Ghostbusters.. all for really cheap, in the $9.99 range and some were bundled with 2 movies they called "double feature". I also saw Batman Begins for $7.96! I was so much more inclined to buy, which is a nice change of pace from feeling raped when paying $24.99 for a f*ckin movie.

To relate directly to this topic, $100 for TGE is a very good price, so I can see why the OP thinks pirating it is absurd.

#47 Okashira - Excuse me?!?!?

Dude, King's Civil Disobedience was illegal! He broke the law and was arrested repeatedly. Almost every person that fought for civil rights broke the law!

Refusal to obey governmental demands or commands are frequently (almost always) illegal.

#48 Blake - I agree wholeheartedly... I wouldn't even consider pirating TGE because I firmly believe that they are being completely fair in their price and what they give me.

The Quake 4 engine, on the other hand. ;-)

#49 Cliff,

The same laws that make it illegal to pirate TGE also make it illegal to pirate Quake 4. If you obey the law for one and not the other, you are not engaging in civil disobedience; instead, you are practicing discrimination.

#50 Louis - No, you are wrong. Civil disobedience is a form of protest. Protesting Quake 4's price because it is insane is fair, but there's nothing to protest with TGE. The point of protest is not whether or not piracy is right or wrong, but the price of the engine.

Please, allow me to re-emphasize... I am not actually saying anywhere that I am pro-piracy. What I am saying is that being a sheep and not committing civil disobedience for something you believe in because it's against the law is a good way to end up in a world where our leaders don't listen to the will of the people and instead do whatever they want... a world where the corporations rape the people with no concern at all that the people will ever fight back.

#51 We're not already in that world Cliff??

#52 Hmmm... Civil disobedience is breaking the law... But breaking the law is not necessarily Civil disobedience. Calling the usual form of software piracy Civil disobedience is probably incorrect. You need to actually be (or actively be) protesting something. You need to be willing to go to jail for it if you think it is wrong.

#53 The problem with that approach is that the companies can fight back, with the law on their side rather than yours. Not buying or pirating an item is a wiser strategy.

#54 Hmm,
well see piracy of the tse while to be expected is prolly not a big deal at all..

so what if some noob looks at the code, heck let him build a game.

what is he gonna do with it?
Odds are that he will learn the source perhaps make a game and then he will purchase it.
so either way it's a win win.

it's like a person pirating max to see if he can like it or learn it.
is he gonna make money with it? no.. so are they losing a customer?
no, he was not a customer. he was not gonna buy it.
But, if he gets good with it, and can produce stuff he can sell. he will eventually be forced to buy it
if he want to be professional with it.

like the movie industry.
ok so people pirate movies.
they are much lower quality and was the person going to goto the theatre to watch it?
prolly not... so did they lose a customer and lose money?
no. did someone steal thier stuff? yes.
do I care? no.

same thing with satellite signal. its all very business minded with no logic at all.

people pirating generally are NOT the customer's who buy it.
they are the people who go without it. sure not all the time but I feel im speaking about the majority here.

so is this about getting mad at people for getting thier stuff for free when they would not have bought it anyway?
yes, that is exactly what this is about.

lay off, they were not your customers anyhow, your customers are there buying the product.
not stealing it.

so the business guys can open thier eyes and look away from the bright sun for a while.

Quake 4:
quake4 demo plays like laggy shit on my home computer.
which is a Stomping machine. feels like netlag pulses all the time.
yet I can play every other game on the market with no real issues.

could be the shitty servers they are hosting the demo on. I can hardly ever find a decent official one.

I Refuse to purchase the game because of this. someone said that the fullgame is running better than the demo... wtf? that is gonna sell the product limiting the demo? I personally cannot believe they would do it.
but stranger things have happened.

would I have pirated it back in the day?
sure why not?

I pirated quake1 and quake2 then purchased them both.
I pirated tribes 1 and didnt bother pirating tribes2 I just went and bought it cause I knew it was some kick ass shit.


personally? I have Stickittothemanatosis
So I dont give a shit about big money making pricks whinning and sniveling how people steal thier shit..
big deal.. everyone has thier shit stolen, dammit someone steals the shit from my truck so big business should get ripped off now and then too.

I dont currently download any pirated stuff..
mostly cause im too busy playing the games I play, coding or hanging with the family.

but also cause all thier products are Shit. and only the free stuff is any good these days.

like hell im gonna pirate Vista.. holy shit.. get your head screwed on straight.
that is the biggest piece of crap going. nad like a 10 gig install? wtf? :)

I Refuse to pirate that when it comes out.
Just like I refused to pirate crappy xp.
I still run win2k cause xp is Junk.
I am forced to work with the junk everyday at work and sadly all my software from work is currently targetting that crap.

But there is a bright light on the horizon.
the Badguy is moving this company to linux, one small step at a time.
and now that I have Logan out of the way, it should be easier to coerce everyone :)

hehe..

just my 2 cents.

#55 @Badguy,

do you mind posting your address, so I can go to your home and steal your shit. I could live without it, but, since it's available, I'd be happy to take it from you. i own work supplys and a futon bed and two pair of pants and 10 teeshirts and a tv with an xbox. that's all i own. cause all my money and time has gone into making it making games. so, you are clearly wealthy compared to me, so, i'll just go ahead and stick it to you since you have so much more than I do.

do you know where the big joke is about stealing from a corporation. you are stealing from the little people. the big guys won't take it, they will layoff people or cut wages or close down shops. and movies... sheesh... do you think a movie costs millions for no reason?! where do you think that money goes? it costs paying for workers and for supplies and for locations. games? when a game company doesn't make enough money... it's closes down and people are jobless. game companies aren't rich?! they barely get by. they are a step up form indies.

do you want to stick it to the man?! then go stick it to him. not the people who work for him. that's the lamest excuse for stealing i've ever heard.

you know. do you live in a war torn country? how about one with a famine? are you living on the street? are you starving? are you clothless? what do you know about being in the position to need to steal to make it? and what do you know of being oppressed by the man?

i agree that the wasps of the world should be stripped of their wealth and have it distributed to the people who they have been cheating and stealing from for centuries. but stealing cds and dvds and software has nothing to do with doing that.

remember that movie Good Will Hunting. When Will is argueing that working a labor job is honorable. And Robin Williams tells him he agrees, but not that Will did it for honorable reasons, because if he did, why was he working a labor job at MIT, the most prestigeous math school in the world. Cause it was bullshit. Will was just hiding behind his honorable labor job bullshit.

stealing entertainment and saying it's sticking it to the man is total and utter bullshit. you want to stick it to the man, go into politics or join a charity or make software that competes and give it away for free(open source). stealing petty shit is just stealing petty shit. and it's a discrace to all the poor people who should be stealing to survive in my opinion. steal food, steal cloths. if as a society we are so fucked up that we won't help people survive, i think those people should steal to survive. but to use the excuse that you are like those people, that's just wrong.

#56 I dislike you all a bit or making me read those two long, time-wasting posts.
Argue this on Wikipedia, this isn't even the right thread for it, let alone forum.

#57 @Mincetro Deadalus Slayer

Your name is cool. I meant to mention that before. What does it mean? It sounds cool. But I know it probably means something too.

#58 Nope, just made it up. My real name was very badly thought out.
Sorry, I had a late night and this discussion is just getting a bit out of hand, I just don't like to see discussions that could split the community agressively.

#59 I doubt this will solve anything:

I don't give a flying fuck if someone pirates Torque. I'd like everyone to buy a copy, but that won't happen. I'd like to prevent people who don't buy it from getting it, but that won't happen. When I write games I expect them to be pirated. When I write DRM, I expect it to be cracked.

This really isn't worth the discussion it is generating.

#60 Lol Anton, my post must have been too long for you to read..
or my words below your comprehension, because what you said makes no sense to me.

but in layman's term's..
like pat said it dont matter.

I was mostly bitching about people whinning about thier loss's all the time.
when just as often as not those same loss's generate money and sales that werent initially there.