Danger of not having a degree

#41 like jeff tunnel said really far at the top: "if you are here at GarageGames, posting on this site, making mods, using the V12 to create your dream game, etc. then you are way ahead of the game."

i think that that is the best way, because not only you need to get into the buisness, you will also need some experience to be good at what you do. most game developers have been making games since they were 10 years old (i know one that has been making games since his 6th!)

that is why stuff like this: "When im outta school then im gonna take a course in programming and make really cool games! it has been my dream for 4 years now!" makes no sence, that just means you have wasted 4 years in which you easily could have learned programming (and alot better than those courses) and started developing games.

as far as college:
i will probably make games when i come outta school (im 13 now, and yes i do make games already :-)) and work fulltime at the company me and my friend will launch in a year (dont ask please :-p), but ill probably go to the university too, if i dont then that means i wasted 2 years of time since here in holland you have different levels of education in highschool, i do the highest which takes 6 years, and the lowest takes 4 years.
its also important cuz if my company might go bankrupt that i will also have something that will grant me some job-security (altho colleges are useless blabla, companies just dont work that way)

#42 I just want to say this... if you are unsure if you should get a post-secondary education or not and you want to get into game development, then I suggest that you call up local game developers and doing a small career investigation (most companies are more than willing to take a bit of time to do this). Since these are likely the companies that you will be applying at for a job you can find out for yourself what path you should take.

L

#43 by no means was i trying to insult you. i was just simply stating that the more computer science you know, the better programmer you will be. that is fact. not only will you be a better game programmer but you will also have much more job security and job roles. if you think that your 13 years of self taught programming qualifies you to be on the same level as a 4 year phd or masters student in CS with a concentration in artificial intelligence or computer graphics your pretty much mistaken. what is programming without advanced algorithms for AI or graphics? just because someone works at a cash register counting money for 10 years that does not mean he or she can teach a course in number theory or discrete math at a university. i mean to tell someone to forget about school and that there are better ways to learn game engineering is ridiculous. yes there are some people that make it without the college degree, but since graphics and AI are becoming more complicated and its finally being taking seriously by computer scientists, the competition is just going to increase, leaving the so called non-cs-degreed game programmer out in the dust. you can program for the next 20 years of your life but if its not 'right' programming than your just wasting your time. i kind of wonder who the amateur is here.

#44 Enoz: Your under the mistaken belief that all university courses are actually RELEVANT to games programming. Computer Science courses from my own experience, offer very little that is directly relevant (many times this is because the course is run by out of date people, with out of date idea's).

Sure, a masters or doctorate in AI or Computer Graphics might be useful, but that does NOT make you a good programmer, consider the AI course, most of that will be taught on unix workstations, probably using a language like Lisp or prolog (or whatever the current flavour of the day happens to be in the AI community). This is definitely NOT preparing a person to code a Bot into Unreal or Quake 3.

What I'd say is, knowledge is knowledge, whereever it comes from, but that you cant just sit there and have it come to you, you have to go and seek it. If you plan on going the academic route into the industry, then make damn sure you use your academic time USEFULLY by relating what you learn as an academic to what you plan to use in a game.

I'm personally in favour of people going to university and using the time they get there to thier advantage, but for you to think its a passport to being the BEST programmer in the world, well I think you havent been out of academia long enough to understand the real world (actually, thats true of a lot of academics I know).

Phil.

#45 well anyways its just a matter of opinion. all i know is that CS at a "real competitive college"(not one of those no name colleges or community schools) will prepare anyone to choose what type of work the individual would like to apply their computer science to. its common sense that the more computer science the better off the programmer/engineer/consultant. it doesn't matter what language you program in, what matters is whats in the scientific foundation. whether you program in lisp, java, sal, mal, or c++, the concept is all the same, whats different is only the syntax and how each language works, thats what computer science teaches. so im guessing only those with comp sci degrees from leading schools know what im talking about. in the future, as game programming becomes more respected by computer scientists, job competition will increase and leave all those self-taught programmers doing the dirty work while the ones with the real foundation reap the fame and money. besides what happens to the non-degreed person if they get laid off or decides to quit due to burn out(which happens to many many game programmers) get a job doing tech-support? now thats pitiful. take a look at stanford's website and due a search on pacman. look at what they accomplished in 1/3rd of a semester which would take many non-cs students a couple months to complete. oh well, if you think that you found your way, good luck. like i said before, its all opinion. hehe

#46 Enoz,

Quote:"so im guessing only those with comp sci degrees from leading schools know what im talking about. in the future, as game programming becomes more respected by computer scientists, job competition will increase and leave all those self-taught programmers doing the dirty work while the ones with the real foundation reap the fame and money."

It doesn't matter if you go to a big-name school such as the University of California, Berkeley, MIT, Stanford, or wether you go to a "smaller" school or a tech school such as the College of Charleston, Trident Technical College, or Winthrop University. The fact of the matter remains: it's the person that decides how great they will be. Not a university or college. Not a handful of professors. Not a plethora of books at their disposal. It's about the persons' initiative.. their thirst for knowledge, their "drive" that will decide wether they will be good in a Computer Science related area.

I'm currently going to a Technical school here in Charleston, SC. I'll be attaining an associates degree. Then I plan on going to a 4-year university and attaining a Bachelors of Science in Computer Science. Now, because I have yet to accomplish these goals, does that mean an MIT grad right out of MIT is better than myself? Does that make them know more? Does that make them magically better at doing Computer Science related tasks than myself? Of course not. I'm going for the experience and that extra "check in the box" I'll have other overs. This in no way makes me better than them, but it helps me look good on paper for those in management that don't get into the technical details of everything. It's life! However, saying that someone with a degree will reap the "fame and fortune" over those that without degrees is absolutely and completely ABSURD.

In summary, it doesn't matter what school you go to, even if you go to school at all, that gives you the ability to create and accomplish things. It's all about you.

Ryan J. Parker
rjp@awingsoftware.com

#47 But its NOT a matter of opinion. You seem to be missing the point. I am not advocating that people shouldnt go to university and do degree's or whatever. What I am saying is that the game industry by and large doesnt care, and that degree's and academia by and large do NOT teach you such that its useful in a game development company.

Ok, there are cases where people have taken thier degree and done something relevant with it (exactly what I did, I wrote some VR stuff while I was at uni).

"its common sense that the more computer science the better off the programmer/engineer/consultant."

Its true to say that most any knowledge is a good thing, wether its computer science or otherwise. Knowledge doesnt care if its taught in a university or learnt from a peer (although you seem to think otherwise).

"it doesn\'t matter what language you program in, what matters is whats in the scientific foundation."

Ok, you go and try to get a job writing lisp or modula, or prolog at ANY game company compared to someone who has experience with writing games using C++. I agree that its the understanding that counts (from a purely hypothetical viewpoint) but its implementations that count at companies. And thier bottom line is they'd rather have the guy who can write the code in C++.

"so im guessing only those with comp sci degrees from leading schools know what im talking about."

No, pretty much everyone can understand that your trying for some reason to patronise everyone without a degree from a "leading school", which shows you have some problems, but hell, I'm not a phycologist.

"in the future, as game programming becomes more respected by computer scientists, job competition will increase and leave all those self-taught programmers doing the dirty work while the ones with the real foundation reap the fame and money."

Oh my. I hope you really dont think this. Maybe you should have some contact with the game programming industry before you try and push your delusional idea about it?

"besides what happens to the non-degreed person if they get laid off or decides to quit due to burn out(which happens to many many game programmers) get a job doing tech-support? now thats pitiful."

At last, a rational point. Getting a degree CAN be benefitial in getting jobs in other industries. Game programming tends to be very very specialised, and that can make you too much of a specialist to get into other industries if you arent careful.

"take a look at stanford\'s website and due a search on pacman. look at what they accomplished in 1/3rd of a semester which would take many non-cs students a couple months to complete. oh well, if you think that you found your way, good luck. like i said before, its all opinion."

Well, thats like saying "look at how fast one person can work compared to another" its different for everyone. I could easily write a pacman game in a day, does that mean that those CS students are crap because it took a couple of months?

Lastly (before this thread finally dies hopefully) its NOT a matter of opinion. Its quite easy to do a bit of research and find out EXACTLY how much having a degree means to your prospective employers. Find out how many of thier employees also have degree's etc. Its worthwhile spending the time to find out and NOT just take someone's word for it (mine or others). From *MY* experience, talent and hard work are more important than academic credentials, but you can do a lot by having academic credentials AND talent and hard work AND having the academic stuff RELEVANT to the job you want.

Ok, nuff said.. going back to sleep.

Phil.

#48 what ever floats your boat guys. its ALL opinion anyways and if your happy in the future. right? okie-dokey-then

#49 "academia by and large do NOT teach you such that "

of course not, then that school would be considered a technical school and not a college.


"Its true to say that most any knowledge is a good thing, wether its computer science or otherwise. Knowledge doesnt care if its taught in a university or learnt from a peer (although you seem to think otherwise)."

apply to stanford's artificial intelligence computing lab and tell them you learned your work from word of mouth, watching TV, and reading a bunch of books. hehe

"No, pretty much everyone can understand that your trying for some reason to patronise everyone without a degree from a "leading school", which shows you have some problems, but hell, I'm not a phycologist."

no, im just saying that if you want to be a better programmer, going to a good school will help. im sorry that some non-degreed people or non-cs people feel offended. but really its true.


"Well, thats like saying "look at how fast one person can work compared to another" its different for everyone. I could easily write a pacman game in a day, does that mean that those CS students are crap because it took a couple of months? "

not a couple of months but maybe 1 month, fully operational, 3d, and with the original AI, while taking other difficult courses. this was in 1999.

http://graphics.stanford.edu/~nscapel/pac2k/Pac2K.htm

i think thats pretty impressive coming from 3 comp sci students with it being pratically their first game completed in a month dont you think. now imagine if they continue the next 5 years?

like i said before its ALL opinion.

peace out dude.

#50 "apply to stanford\'s artificial intelligence computing lab and tell them you learned your work from word of mouth, watching TV, and reading a bunch of books. hehe"

Again, trying to patronise is NOT a sound argument. No-one mentioned TV. And dont you think reading books is a good thing for learning? dont you think the guys at stanford read a lot of books/papers? or learn from peers?

Besides, we are talking about becoming a game programmer, not an AI researcher. These things ARE different.

"no, im just saying that if you want to be a better programmer, going to a good school will help. im sorry that some non-degreed people or non-cs people feel offended. but really its true."

Again patronisation. No, its only true if that course your on teaches programming, and then only if it teaches programming in a good way. Most CS courses, even from "well known" schools often fall short of this. You MAY be lucky to get a course thats relevant to game programming, you may not. Its not a *given* that because you go to a specific school you know how to program. If you are implying it is, it shows you really havent had enough contact with real life outside acedemia.

"I think thats pretty impressive coming from 3 comp sci students with it being pratically their first game completed in a month dont you think. now imagine if they continue the next 5 years?"

Yes, but by your reasoning, they are not as good as someone who can program the same thing in a day. You specifically brought this up to show how much more "efficent" they were because they did it so fast. Believe it or not, different people have different work rates, this has NOTHING to do with academic ability.

"like i said before its ALL opinion."

And like I tried to tell you, it *NOT*. You can quite easily research if its important to have a batchelors or higher degree in the game industry. And by and large, its NOT. There is no fast rule about these things, but speaking as someone FROM the games industry, with contacts with a LOT of games companies *i.e. with actual knowledge, not some theory* I can state that there is no hard and fast rule as to the desirability of a degree beyond the usual "its useful if theyve got one, but we care about ability and work more than a piece of paper".

Different companies have different policies, but Ive often come across companies that dont regard having a degree without some relevance to what they are hiring for as a particular benefit.

Look, lets agree to disagree, but this is NOT a matter of opinion. Its quite easy to do some research and get the facts straight for yourself, and I'd prefer anyone reading this to do exactly that before they made a decision about academic plans. I'm personally in favour of academic achievement as far as you need to go. But Ive certainly had experience with people who are no better for it.

Phil.

#51 what ever floats your boat dude. i never said that college will pave the way, but college WILL give the programmer an upper hand in many areas like software engineering. not everyone feels the same way you do. maybe because youve been in the industry to long. oh well.

#52 I'm going to university next year to do computer science. I'm really into games programming, and it's what I'd like to do. The course I'm doing wont have much relavent to my intrests, but it will give me a better understanding of OO coding practice, programming in general and all that. Also, I'm not incredibly optimistic about my chances of getting a well paid games dev job any time soon, but having a degree in cs here will guarantee me a high paying job in computing.

So I'm basically taking the degree to broaden my experience in computing, and also it will guarantee me a good income if I fail to get a game dev job. So far everything I've learnt, I've taught myself, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but everything that I've learned has been pretty specific, in just one area of programming. It's all fine for me to be able to program graphics, but if it's the only thing I've learned to do, then when it comes to putting it all together to make a program, I run into problems, which has been my experience so far. No one has ever taught me how to program well. Obviously the more I program, the more that becomes clear to me, and I'll change my coding practices. Even though I can code a cool graphics app, I have no way of knowing if it was done well or not as I have no-one telling me how it could be better, sure it works, but it could probably be better coded, and better structures. Getting a degree in cs will hopefully teach me a lot about designing an application in its entirety, and how to code well.

Also, I will have more free time then if I just went and got a job, so even if the course doesn't teach much about game programming, I can still go and do that myself at the same time. By the end of the four years I should have expanded my knowledge of programming by a fair whack. I did think about getting a degree in games programming, but I think that that would limit mee too much in the future. What happens if I change my mind about wanting to become a games developer? The degree I'm on for will let me get other jobs in the computing industry giving me a lot more flexibility in what I end up doing.

Just my view on the topic.

#53 Here's my two cents, but now I'm broke!

That's why I don't have a degree, but I'm not worried for one reason - I won't quit! I learn what I can, when I can, I keep up on what's happening, and I'll keep putting in for requests. Yeah I'll get lots of turndowns, but who won't, even with a degree? I know what I'm going for, and that's all I need to worry about.

I live to design games, so I'll get in one way or another!

Oops! I'm spent!
:)

#54 I agree with the creator of this thread!I just couldnt stand being the best in school(teachers included), I wasnt learning anything! So I decided to quit school, create my own company and start working on a game with some frinds(acctually alot of them! :D). And here I am! =)

#55 I dont have a degree and I dont have to worry about getting a good job because my experience speaks louder to most people that a degree does. To some companies, having a degree does not mean you know what you are talking about. As a person who hires people to work for us, I will in most cases lean towards those with experience over those who have a degree and is right out of college.

Not all the time, but some of the time, I have had nothing but personality conflicts between high degree persons and others in the company because they think they are better than some because they have degrees.

So if your not willing to get a degree, then you have to start working on getting the experience.

#56 Please no more replies to this thread.

Rick-GG