Help Me Decide on Torque Please...
by Onam · in Torque Game Engine · 07/11/2006 (5:22 am) · 17 replies
Hi ladies and gents I was recommended by a friend to use the Torque Engine, however I have little doubts. Considering I may be paying $100 for such an engine I was wondering of whether some questions can be answered:
First of all, I am only a student and require the use of an engine whereby I could easily get to grips with and modify farely easily. Although, it would be playing a major role in my studies I would still be using the engine as I enjoy developing games.
After having downloaded the demo I wasn't really "wowing" with joy as it was pretty limited to what I was able to do and although it was a demo I hope it doesn't reflect on the final product.
In terms of support is there much available? For example, help for people totally new to Torque and never having used such an engine before?
Thank you for your help in advance.
Pent^
First of all, I am only a student and require the use of an engine whereby I could easily get to grips with and modify farely easily. Although, it would be playing a major role in my studies I would still be using the engine as I enjoy developing games.
After having downloaded the demo I wasn't really "wowing" with joy as it was pretty limited to what I was able to do and although it was a demo I hope it doesn't reflect on the final product.
In terms of support is there much available? For example, help for people totally new to Torque and never having used such an engine before?
Thank you for your help in advance.
Pent^
#2
Thanks
Pent^
07/11/2006 (6:05 am)
Hi thanks for the reply. I did attempt using the F10/F11 keys but all it allowed me to do was change where the elements were positioned and having done that I didn't really see anything change. Am I doing something wrong here?Thanks
Pent^
#3
Within the gui editor, at the top, there's a drop down box with the different elements for the game. Check out mainmenu.gui and playgui and see how things are in. Together with the Gui files (.gui) there are some client side script files in/client/scripts like mainmenu.cs and playgui.cs. Check them out. Also interesting for you might be /server/scripts/game.cs and /server/scripts/player.cs.
07/11/2006 (6:12 am)
I suggest starting with the world editor using F11 and modifying a bit the terrain, add items (F3), modify things (F4) etc.Within the gui editor, at the top, there's a drop down box with the different elements for the game. Check out mainmenu.gui and playgui and see how things are in. Together with the Gui files (.gui) there are some client side script files in
#4
07/11/2006 (6:14 am)
By the way: If you're really hot on making games, go buy Torque. You won't regret it. Promised! :-) The learning curve is not easy and you definately will pull out your hair sometimes, but it is worth definately!
#5
Many Thanks
Pent^
07/11/2006 (6:21 am)
Many thanks for your help Martin. I will take your opinion on board and many thanks again for those commands and useful info. I will have a go at that and will probably end up buying it. How is the support on this engine, will I be able to find answers here if I post a problem, i.e. I can't get the engine to do something?Many Thanks
Pent^
#6
Yeah, go buy it and make a cool game and have fun :-)
07/11/2006 (6:25 am)
You're welcome. Don't expect GarageGames to answer you questions, but post them here in the forums. But as first step, use the excellent search here on the site. The forums are huge and most of the questions have been already asked, esp. when starting fresh to Torque. Yeah, go buy it and make a cool game and have fun :-)
#7
07/11/2006 (6:36 am)
What Martin said, Torque can be a pain sometimes - but in the end, I'm so happy I found it and the pain and frustration is almost always worth it. IMO no other engine comes even close.
#8
@Onam: The best tip I can hand you out is: If something does not work, always look first in the console log for an error... (you will recall this sentence later, trust me... :-)
07/11/2006 (6:47 am)
He he, right, Stefan. I've used a lot of other engines in the past and no (affordable) engine comes close to Torque. @Onam: The best tip I can hand you out is: If something does not work, always look first in the console log for an error... (you will recall this sentence later, trust me... :-)
#9
save your hundred bucks for the frat happenings, and download a copy of irrlicht or ogre...
Torque is not going to be a cake walk to mod, and unless you are a capable c++ coder and
feel comfortable sifting through tons of code to get TGE to do what you want it to... and have
the time to do this... other, more 'student budget' friendly options exist...
... many which will be just as rewarding.
now, this is not to say that Torque is a bad decision for game making... depending upon what you want to do, and the large knowledge base in the forum, it may be a very good choice... for a game maker... but where you're at right now, it may not be the best choice at all...
also, you've got to realize that you're on a TGE forum... what would you expect the majority of people here to say... not to license it???
it's the same as if you were on a 3D Game Studio forum, or a C4 forum, or whatever... they all want you to enlist in their army...
you've got to learn to recognize the symptoms of this dreaded desease that afflicts the minds of a lot (not all)
of these forum dwellers... it's medical name is fanboyitis... it's symptoms become apparent almost immediately after licensing a game engine, programming language, and in extreme cases... an operating system... it's cause is unknown... it's cure, yet to be found...
an example of it in it's extreme form, is the users of one particular operating system going to war (haven't you heard of the great OSX/Windoze Wars of the 1990s) against users of the other OS...
the ensuing carnage was not a pretty sight...
ok... now that i got that lil laugh outta my system, in all seriousness, check out the demo and go through some of the forum threads on scripting... that'll give you some idea of the capbilities of both TGE and you
yourself... and put you in a better position to make a more informed decision...
and, good luck with your choice... and with your studies...
--Mike
07/14/2006 (6:47 am)
I'm gonna take a completely different position here, and say that Torque might not be the one you are looking for...save your hundred bucks for the frat happenings, and download a copy of irrlicht or ogre...
Torque is not going to be a cake walk to mod, and unless you are a capable c++ coder and
feel comfortable sifting through tons of code to get TGE to do what you want it to... and have
the time to do this... other, more 'student budget' friendly options exist...
... many which will be just as rewarding.
now, this is not to say that Torque is a bad decision for game making... depending upon what you want to do, and the large knowledge base in the forum, it may be a very good choice... for a game maker... but where you're at right now, it may not be the best choice at all...
also, you've got to realize that you're on a TGE forum... what would you expect the majority of people here to say... not to license it???
it's the same as if you were on a 3D Game Studio forum, or a C4 forum, or whatever... they all want you to enlist in their army...
you've got to learn to recognize the symptoms of this dreaded desease that afflicts the minds of a lot (not all)
of these forum dwellers... it's medical name is fanboyitis... it's symptoms become apparent almost immediately after licensing a game engine, programming language, and in extreme cases... an operating system... it's cause is unknown... it's cure, yet to be found...
an example of it in it's extreme form, is the users of one particular operating system going to war (haven't you heard of the great OSX/Windoze Wars of the 1990s) against users of the other OS...
the ensuing carnage was not a pretty sight...
ok... now that i got that lil laugh outta my system, in all seriousness, check out the demo and go through some of the forum threads on scripting... that'll give you some idea of the capbilities of both TGE and you
yourself... and put you in a better position to make a more informed decision...
and, good luck with your choice... and with your studies...
--Mike
#10
Whether on a limited budget or not, choosing a free engine can be a false economy when you consider the additional time and effort involved in finding and/or constructing a complete solution.
It goes without saying that the majority of users of a specialised forum are going to have a positive attitude about whatever it focuses on. However, it is still a valid place to ask such questions as the people there will have a more intimate knowledge of whatever that is, and at least some will point out faults that those at more general forums might not even know exist.
The same question(s) could also be asked at forums covering other engines being considered.
Onam: If you haven't done so already, take a look at DevMaster's Game and Graphics Engines Database, where you can compare a number of engines and read reviews of them.
The process I went through when choosing an engine was as follows:-
1. Decided the features I needed and those which would be nice but optional.
2. Decided whether flexibility or ease of use was most important.
3. Compared engines at Devmaster.Net and elsewhere to create a shortlist of possibilities.
4. Asked questions at various forums to shorten that list.
5. Compared inclusive prices (taking the cost of additional tools etc. into consideration) to shorten that list further.
6. Asked more questions at forums.
7. Purchased TGE.
It seems to me that the second item in that list is what currently concerns you.
Torque does not include every tool used to create new game content, just to place, edit and/or move existing objects. You will need an external text editor, 2D image creator, 3D model creator, 3D building creator and appropriate export tools. It is therefore not as simple to get started with as something like 3DGameStudio.
There are free programs available to use with Torque however, and Garage Games are working on a (reasonably priced) tool called Constructor which will natively use Torque's custom formats.
Using popular external tools can be to your advantage, as it makes it more likely that you will find experienced people and/or tutorials to help you.
Most inexperienced users start by modifying the existing examples and then gradually learn how to use the various additional tools to create new content and code. Various third party tutorials are available to help with this, many of which are listed on the Torque SDK home page.
07/14/2006 (3:34 pm)
Michael Hense: Both Irrlicht and OGRE are graphics engines, so they would require an even greater initial understanding of C++ coding and compilation than a complete game engine like Torque.Whether on a limited budget or not, choosing a free engine can be a false economy when you consider the additional time and effort involved in finding and/or constructing a complete solution.
It goes without saying that the majority of users of a specialised forum are going to have a positive attitude about whatever it focuses on. However, it is still a valid place to ask such questions as the people there will have a more intimate knowledge of whatever that is, and at least some will point out faults that those at more general forums might not even know exist.
The same question(s) could also be asked at forums covering other engines being considered.
Onam: If you haven't done so already, take a look at DevMaster's Game and Graphics Engines Database, where you can compare a number of engines and read reviews of them.
The process I went through when choosing an engine was as follows:-
1. Decided the features I needed and those which would be nice but optional.
2. Decided whether flexibility or ease of use was most important.
3. Compared engines at Devmaster.Net and elsewhere to create a shortlist of possibilities.
4. Asked questions at various forums to shorten that list.
5. Compared inclusive prices (taking the cost of additional tools etc. into consideration) to shorten that list further.
6. Asked more questions at forums.
7. Purchased TGE.
It seems to me that the second item in that list is what currently concerns you.
Torque does not include every tool used to create new game content, just to place, edit and/or move existing objects. You will need an external text editor, 2D image creator, 3D model creator, 3D building creator and appropriate export tools. It is therefore not as simple to get started with as something like 3DGameStudio.
There are free programs available to use with Torque however, and Garage Games are working on a (reasonably priced) tool called Constructor which will natively use Torque's custom formats.
Using popular external tools can be to your advantage, as it makes it more likely that you will find experienced people and/or tutorials to help you.
Most inexperienced users start by modifying the existing examples and then gradually learn how to use the various additional tools to create new content and code. Various third party tutorials are available to help with this, many of which are listed on the Torque SDK home page.
#12
However, these are free and it won't hurt your wallet to try them out. On the other hand, you might waste some time should you decide not to use them in the end.
You should carefully review the requirements for your game and try to find information that might hint if your requirements would be realistic using Torque.
(The forums are excellent as a source for this!)
07/14/2006 (3:47 pm)
OGRE and Irrilicht are not Game Engines, so the comparasion is pretty stupid.However, these are free and it won't hurt your wallet to try them out. On the other hand, you might waste some time should you decide not to use them in the end.
You should carefully review the requirements for your game and try to find information that might hint if your requirements would be realistic using Torque.
(The forums are excellent as a source for this!)
#13
The demo is not limiting except insofar as you can't add custom C++ code, but it might not be obvious the extent of the possibilities offered by the demos.
But if you want an engine to work on your game rather than concentrate on tech, what you get for the price is hard to beat.
Yes, there is a learning curve, the extent and difficulty of which is partly dependent on your abilities, and what area(s) of gamedev you're focusing on : this is real world tech, with brilliant insights and ugly warts :)
That said, it's a complete codebase from game tech foundation viewpoint : all fundamentals are covered, and to boot, if you license it, you can always replace functionality that doesn't suit you for your own, or other licensed tech (of course, that can be quite a bit of work, but that's the same thing with any existing wide ranging codebase), and as such a very good learning tool in both gamedev and leveraging a codebase you didn't write as a coder, or creating assets within the constraints of a certain technology if you're on the content creation side, and ditto with game design.
In the end, it depends on what you want to do, how you want to do it, etc.
That said, just for the insights TGE can give you into what a real world reusable framework/engine is, it's worth the admittance price : this is technology that was developed in real world conditions, with all the pressures involved, and overall, the results are of a much superior quality and usability than most gamedev tech developped under similar conditions. Seriously.
And this is not fanboyism, but my personal experience working with other proprietary technologies in and out of the game industry
Cheers, and have fun torquin' !!!
07/14/2006 (4:20 pm)
Onam, play more with the demo, and if you're actually looking at coding and scripting yourself, you can do a lot with the TGE demo, if not a full game : you can create new script source files, add/replace all the content, be it models (animated/statics/interiors), new missions with custom terrain or no terrain, textures, sounds, etc. The demo is not limiting except insofar as you can't add custom C++ code, but it might not be obvious the extent of the possibilities offered by the demos.
But if you want an engine to work on your game rather than concentrate on tech, what you get for the price is hard to beat.
Yes, there is a learning curve, the extent and difficulty of which is partly dependent on your abilities, and what area(s) of gamedev you're focusing on : this is real world tech, with brilliant insights and ugly warts :)
That said, it's a complete codebase from game tech foundation viewpoint : all fundamentals are covered, and to boot, if you license it, you can always replace functionality that doesn't suit you for your own, or other licensed tech (of course, that can be quite a bit of work, but that's the same thing with any existing wide ranging codebase), and as such a very good learning tool in both gamedev and leveraging a codebase you didn't write as a coder, or creating assets within the constraints of a certain technology if you're on the content creation side, and ditto with game design.
In the end, it depends on what you want to do, how you want to do it, etc.
That said, just for the insights TGE can give you into what a real world reusable framework/engine is, it's worth the admittance price : this is technology that was developed in real world conditions, with all the pressures involved, and overall, the results are of a much superior quality and usability than most gamedev tech developped under similar conditions. Seriously.
And this is not fanboyism, but my personal experience working with other proprietary technologies in and out of the game industry
Cheers, and have fun torquin' !!!
#14
heyy... heeeyyy!!!! put your fanboy flags down for a second, and pull your pantyhoses up from around your ankles...
NEWS FLASH-- i think that just about everyone here knows that irrlicht and ogre are rendering engines only... calm down and stop being so defensive... noone is attacking your Tribes based religon...
least of all lil ole me, who has already licensed the thing...
my god... want to raise the hackles on the back of the necks of the insecure, just whisper Irrlicht... or Ogre around here...
anyways... read the original request... he said ENGINE... not GAME ENGINE... hullllooooo...
second of all... this has nothing to do with knowing c++ or not knowing c++... he's gotta know TORQUE++...
give two deaf, dumb, and blind men TGE and Irrlicht each, then start the clock running... see which one will have a textured spinning cube up and running first...
ya know Stephan, you're always so quick to call something stupid... you outta grow outta that... quickly...
what's really stupid is trying to convince someone that they can download the engine and jump right in there modding their happy hours away, carefree as a bird... now that's sttttooooooooooopid... as well as being totally inconsiderate to the needs to the guy who asked the question.
Wisardry... that is also nonsense... Irrlicht and OGRE are both straight forward OOp implementations and a straightforward 3D rendering api... Torque is a full blown, custom game, with the api exposed in a not to generalized manner as to be picked up overnite... he'll spend at least 10 times more hours just understanding the networking aspects of TGE... much less the rendering portion of it...
Nicholas has given some wise advise... just like i also advised the guy to do... get the demo... go through some of the tuts... do some scripting... then make a decision...
just rushing the guy into TGE merely because the fanboy fever has a grip on you is unfair... you outta be able to realize this without me havin' to make a fool outta myself to tell it to you...
so there... blaaaaahhhh...
:)
Onam... don't let all this food fighting scare you away... it's really nothing... and it happens here more often than not...
good luck with whichever decision you make... and remember what i told you above... learn to discriminate between the fanboys and the fans... at least then you'll know which advice you should follow...
whichever one you decide to heed is up to you...
again, good luck...
--Mike
07/14/2006 (4:33 pm)
Quote:Both Irrlicht and OGRE are graphics engines, so they would require an even greater initial understanding of C++ coding and compilation than a complete game engine like Torque.
Quote:OGRE and Irrilicht are not Game Engines, so the comparasion is pretty stupid.
heyy... heeeyyy!!!! put your fanboy flags down for a second, and pull your pantyhoses up from around your ankles...
NEWS FLASH-- i think that just about everyone here knows that irrlicht and ogre are rendering engines only... calm down and stop being so defensive... noone is attacking your Tribes based religon...
least of all lil ole me, who has already licensed the thing...
my god... want to raise the hackles on the back of the necks of the insecure, just whisper Irrlicht... or Ogre around here...
anyways... read the original request... he said ENGINE... not GAME ENGINE... hullllooooo...
second of all... this has nothing to do with knowing c++ or not knowing c++... he's gotta know TORQUE++...
give two deaf, dumb, and blind men TGE and Irrlicht each, then start the clock running... see which one will have a textured spinning cube up and running first...
ya know Stephan, you're always so quick to call something stupid... you outta grow outta that... quickly...
what's really stupid is trying to convince someone that they can download the engine and jump right in there modding their happy hours away, carefree as a bird... now that's sttttooooooooooopid... as well as being totally inconsiderate to the needs to the guy who asked the question.
Wisardry... that is also nonsense... Irrlicht and OGRE are both straight forward OOp implementations and a straightforward 3D rendering api... Torque is a full blown, custom game, with the api exposed in a not to generalized manner as to be picked up overnite... he'll spend at least 10 times more hours just understanding the networking aspects of TGE... much less the rendering portion of it...
Nicholas has given some wise advise... just like i also advised the guy to do... get the demo... go through some of the tuts... do some scripting... then make a decision...
just rushing the guy into TGE merely because the fanboy fever has a grip on you is unfair... you outta be able to realize this without me havin' to make a fool outta myself to tell it to you...
so there... blaaaaahhhh...
:)
Onam... don't let all this food fighting scare you away... it's really nothing... and it happens here more often than not...
good luck with whichever decision you make... and remember what i told you above... learn to discriminate between the fanboys and the fans... at least then you'll know which advice you should follow...
whichever one you decide to heed is up to you...
again, good luck...
--Mike
#15
Yes, using the default client/server architecture can seem a little strange at first, but there is documentation and examples of its use available.
07/14/2006 (5:51 pm)
Quote:heyy... heeeyyy!!!! put your fanboy flags down for a second, and pull your pantyhoses up from around your ankles...It seems to me that you are the one becoming over-excited.
Quote:anyways... read the original request... he said ENGINE... not GAME ENGINE...He/she also wrote that the intention was developing games.
Quote:second of all... this has nothing to do with know c++ or not knowing c++... he's gotta know TORQUE++...You were the one who mentioned that being "a capable c++ coder" was a requirement to use Torque, I merely pointed out that it is more of a requirement if you attempt to make games with either of the engines you mentioned as alternatives.
Quote:give two deaf dumb and blind men TGE and Irrlicht each, then start the clock running... see which one will have a textured spinning cube up and running first...How would that prove which is better for developing games?
Quote:what's really stupid is trying to convince someone that they can download the engine and jump right in there modding their happy hours away, carefree as a bird... now that's sttttooooooooooopid... as well as being totally inconsiderate to the needs of the guy who asked the question.Why is it stupid to mention that most new users start off by modifying the examples? There are several tutorials available that show how to do just that. I made no indication that is the only way to go nor that it would be quick and/or effortless. I also made it reasonably clear that would only be a starting point.
Quote:Wisardry... that is nonsense... Irrlicht and OGRE are both straight forward OOp implementations and a straightforward 3D rendering api... Torque is a full blown, custom game, with the api exposed in a not to generalized manner as to be picked up overnite... he'll spend at least 10 times more hours just understanding the networking aspects of TGE... much less the rendering portion of it...That is assuming that an understanding of the networking aspects were necessary to the game(s) being created, which it wouldn't be for many single player games. If such an understanding was necessary, it would also be for any other engine used, and in the case of a graphics engine a suitable API would need to be found and added first which is hardly quicker or easier.
Yes, using the default client/server architecture can seem a little strange at first, but there is documentation and examples of its use available.
Quote:just rushing the guy into TGE merely because the fanboy fever has a grip on you is unfair... you outta be able to realize this without me havin' to tell you this...Suggesting that (s)he decide on his/her precise needs, compare other engines and ask questions at other forums is hardly rushing anyone into anything nor a symptom of "fanboy fever".
#16
you really outta read what you are responding to before you respond to it... maybe a lil slowly, so you won't accuse me of saying something that i never said... fair 'nuff???
in fact, i'm really big on scripting only projects in TGE, it's a matter of public record (search through my posts if you don't believe me)... so that's a double wammy dammy on what you just said...
now i'll be content to conceed that you seem have more free time on your hands than i do, so, for the sake of sparing the forum the unending quoting frenzy that you are obviously capable of, and in the interest of brevity, i'll give you the victory here... YOU WIN... ok, does that make you happy...
will that free me from your quoting clutches...
i hope that'll be enough for you to let it rest...
i hope that you'll not continue babbling on, and not turn this fanboys rush into a bending over backwards and touching the back of your feet contest... just to prove you that you are right...
the guy who started this thread may not be interested in any more of our hijinks... he may have some genuine questions he might need answered...
in short, could ya go away now, and let the thread get back on topic...
:)
--Mike
07/14/2006 (6:34 pm)
Quote:You were the one who mentioned that being "a capable c++ coder" was a requirement to use Torque,nonesense again Wiz... what i *did* say was
Quote:Torque is not going to be a cake walk to mod, and unless you are a capable c++ coder andok... do ya see the word MOD... as opposed to the word USE...
feel comfortable sifting through tons of code to get TGE to do what you want it to
you really outta read what you are responding to before you respond to it... maybe a lil slowly, so you won't accuse me of saying something that i never said... fair 'nuff???
in fact, i'm really big on scripting only projects in TGE, it's a matter of public record (search through my posts if you don't believe me)... so that's a double wammy dammy on what you just said...
now i'll be content to conceed that you seem have more free time on your hands than i do, so, for the sake of sparing the forum the unending quoting frenzy that you are obviously capable of, and in the interest of brevity, i'll give you the victory here... YOU WIN... ok, does that make you happy...
will that free me from your quoting clutches...
i hope that'll be enough for you to let it rest...
i hope that you'll not continue babbling on, and not turn this fanboys rush into a bending over backwards and touching the back of your feet contest... just to prove you that you are right...
the guy who started this thread may not be interested in any more of our hijinks... he may have some genuine questions he might need answered...
in short, could ya go away now, and let the thread get back on topic...
:)
--Mike
Torque Owner Martin Schultz
If you're totally new to game engines, you might take a look at TGB, as it is an easy to understand 2D engine. For the super-very-first beginner I would recommand starting 2D games and when you've done your first game and still want more, go make 3D games.