The million dollar question
by AzraelK · in General Discussion · 04/18/2002 (8:17 pm) · 30 replies
The million dollar question
This is a thread about GG from an investment stand point,
Is purpose is not a "flame" about is shortcomings, but to talk about them in a serious manner please do not repply with flames
Garage games deal is sweet, you buy torque which
is an AAA engine with lots of features to create neat
games with an small investment, and you get the chance
to sell those via web at the garagegames site. GG gets
a percenteage of final sells, and you get the rest. =)
(GG already has you cc number when you buy the engine
so I suppose they may use that.)
The initial investment is a $100 bucks which is not
much, however you are required to contract (For
payment at development or at release time) a team of
artists, coders and profesionals to work on it, in addition you must license the tools they will use. (besides the engine) this includes Visual C++ since you _need_ it to compile the engine.
So far so good, the problem comes when you realize
there hasnt been any sells by this method, so theres
an investment in the engine, then on the team and the
required tools, and at the end ,theres an "expected"
revenue, however there are no examples or proofs of
this, is all just an agreement. stating someday you
might finish a game with the engine and make it good
enough to be sold. (although that time is not now and
we dont know when that time would come)
There isnt a guarantee or at least a project in
development scheduled at this time to be sold at the
site, not even a preemptive date or a demo. Sure there
is a community demo on progress (which wont be for
sale) and some titles that look really promising, but
other than that, theres not much to say. As an
investor, I am not very impressed.
In addition There are certain issues that havent been
solved on the engine that are needed to have a shot in
the market:
-Driver incompability
Every 3d card, needs "the latest" drivers,otherwise it
wont run torque. Are we going to ship the latest
drivers for every major card with yout game? no? then
do we actually NEED those to get your game going, when
almost every other engine doesnt? I think this needs
careful thinking.
-Open AL
What is that? sure it works on linux, but almost no
one has this sdk for windows, couldnt we use direct
sound for windows platforms, and open al for linux and
mac? (ok, this is a minor since you can install it
along with the game, but is not good from a comercial
stand point)
-AI support.
AI support has become a MAJOR issue in game developing
today, torque has no AI at all, this is a problem when
trying to ship a complete game, since it will only
work only in multiplayer mode, cutting the number of
potential buyers. (besides other than Tribes style
based ones, most games NEED bots to be played)
-Lack of new 3d features.
The newest features of 3d cards today are missing in
our game engine, this is definetily not good. ( I
agree it shouldnt be "required" but at least it should
be there for those who have expensive cards and want
to show them off)
-Not so speedy engine:
Our engine is fast but not as fast as.. [insert any
other engine here] BSP support should be worked on, optimizations should already be made.
-Lack of proper documentation:
SURE, you can throw forward the "quake 3 engine doesnt
have docs neither!" sad history but I believe What we
have here is a business relationship, GG makes a game
engine, I buy the engine to make games, I make games
with the engine, GG gets royalties from me for using
your engine, (we are all happy and we all what we want). But how im I supposed to do games with your engine If I dont know how it works?
Making games is already difficult, let alone trying to
find out what each method and object is there for and
the "docs" made by doxigen do not help as much as they
should because the engine itself is not well
commented.
I think thats about it.
Please bare In mind, that Im also a game developer and
I love games, I just would like GG to realize their
market will grow a lot more if this "issues" could be
adressed.
Time to retaliate GG people I need some heavy
convincing (or actions which would be much preferred)
so I can use those with MY own investors about this.
=)
(Im serious about the investors ;) so dont let me down!)
This is a thread about GG from an investment stand point,
Is purpose is not a "flame" about is shortcomings, but to talk about them in a serious manner please do not repply with flames
Garage games deal is sweet, you buy torque which
is an AAA engine with lots of features to create neat
games with an small investment, and you get the chance
to sell those via web at the garagegames site. GG gets
a percenteage of final sells, and you get the rest. =)
(GG already has you cc number when you buy the engine
so I suppose they may use that.)
The initial investment is a $100 bucks which is not
much, however you are required to contract (For
payment at development or at release time) a team of
artists, coders and profesionals to work on it, in addition you must license the tools they will use. (besides the engine) this includes Visual C++ since you _need_ it to compile the engine.
So far so good, the problem comes when you realize
there hasnt been any sells by this method, so theres
an investment in the engine, then on the team and the
required tools, and at the end ,theres an "expected"
revenue, however there are no examples or proofs of
this, is all just an agreement. stating someday you
might finish a game with the engine and make it good
enough to be sold. (although that time is not now and
we dont know when that time would come)
There isnt a guarantee or at least a project in
development scheduled at this time to be sold at the
site, not even a preemptive date or a demo. Sure there
is a community demo on progress (which wont be for
sale) and some titles that look really promising, but
other than that, theres not much to say. As an
investor, I am not very impressed.
In addition There are certain issues that havent been
solved on the engine that are needed to have a shot in
the market:
-Driver incompability
Every 3d card, needs "the latest" drivers,otherwise it
wont run torque. Are we going to ship the latest
drivers for every major card with yout game? no? then
do we actually NEED those to get your game going, when
almost every other engine doesnt? I think this needs
careful thinking.
-Open AL
What is that? sure it works on linux, but almost no
one has this sdk for windows, couldnt we use direct
sound for windows platforms, and open al for linux and
mac? (ok, this is a minor since you can install it
along with the game, but is not good from a comercial
stand point)
-AI support.
AI support has become a MAJOR issue in game developing
today, torque has no AI at all, this is a problem when
trying to ship a complete game, since it will only
work only in multiplayer mode, cutting the number of
potential buyers. (besides other than Tribes style
based ones, most games NEED bots to be played)
-Lack of new 3d features.
The newest features of 3d cards today are missing in
our game engine, this is definetily not good. ( I
agree it shouldnt be "required" but at least it should
be there for those who have expensive cards and want
to show them off)
-Not so speedy engine:
Our engine is fast but not as fast as.. [insert any
other engine here] BSP support should be worked on, optimizations should already be made.
-Lack of proper documentation:
SURE, you can throw forward the "quake 3 engine doesnt
have docs neither!" sad history but I believe What we
have here is a business relationship, GG makes a game
engine, I buy the engine to make games, I make games
with the engine, GG gets royalties from me for using
your engine, (we are all happy and we all what we want). But how im I supposed to do games with your engine If I dont know how it works?
Making games is already difficult, let alone trying to
find out what each method and object is there for and
the "docs" made by doxigen do not help as much as they
should because the engine itself is not well
commented.
I think thats about it.
Please bare In mind, that Im also a game developer and
I love games, I just would like GG to realize their
market will grow a lot more if this "issues" could be
adressed.
Time to retaliate GG people I need some heavy
convincing (or actions which would be much preferred)
so I can use those with MY own investors about this.
=)
(Im serious about the investors ;) so dont let me down!)
#2
And the reason why you posted this, rather than emailing it to Jeff Tunnell is because ... ?
04/18/2002 (8:26 pm)
@BurningRose:And the reason why you posted this, rather than emailing it to Jeff Tunnell is because ... ?
#3
AI: It is not the responsiblity of the engine to provide AI. You need to write your own. If we did provide AI, I can't imagine a game that people would be willing to pay for that used canned AI. We can't write your game for you.
No shipping titles: TGE shipped August, 2001. It is April 18, 2002. That is not enough time to make a game that people are willing to pay for. Especially in an indie environment where most developers are doing this in their spare time. I don't expect any shipping games until this Fall at the earliest. More realistically, it will be a year from now before we start to see many games.
Latest Drivers: Most games do require the latest drivers. We can't fix Bill Gates' problems from our vantage point. If this is a problem for you, then PC game development probably is not the right answer. Maybe you should look into fixed hardware platforms such as Gamecube.
Engine Is Slower Than Others: Simply not true. Play Realm Wars.
No Advanced Card Support: There is not a shipping engine that supports the latest graphics card features. Not even one that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. In Torque, you can add specific shader support to your game through OpenGL. Again, we cannot write your game for you.
OpenAL: This is a non-issue. If you are bothered by this, you can ship OpenAL with your game. We are going to continue to support open standards. If you don't agree with us on this issue you are able to write your game to monopolistic standards since you get the source.
Bottom line is this: we cannot write your game for you. An engine can give you a leg up to make your game, but it is not a miracle. Finding an engine, recruiting a team and making your game is hard work. We are sincerely attempting to help people through this process and for many, many teams it is working.
Jeff Tunnell GG
04/18/2002 (8:49 pm)
Torque offers better tools than have ever been offered to the indie development community. We are not perfect, but we getting better every day.AI: It is not the responsiblity of the engine to provide AI. You need to write your own. If we did provide AI, I can't imagine a game that people would be willing to pay for that used canned AI. We can't write your game for you.
No shipping titles: TGE shipped August, 2001. It is April 18, 2002. That is not enough time to make a game that people are willing to pay for. Especially in an indie environment where most developers are doing this in their spare time. I don't expect any shipping games until this Fall at the earliest. More realistically, it will be a year from now before we start to see many games.
Latest Drivers: Most games do require the latest drivers. We can't fix Bill Gates' problems from our vantage point. If this is a problem for you, then PC game development probably is not the right answer. Maybe you should look into fixed hardware platforms such as Gamecube.
Engine Is Slower Than Others: Simply not true. Play Realm Wars.
No Advanced Card Support: There is not a shipping engine that supports the latest graphics card features. Not even one that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. In Torque, you can add specific shader support to your game through OpenGL. Again, we cannot write your game for you.
OpenAL: This is a non-issue. If you are bothered by this, you can ship OpenAL with your game. We are going to continue to support open standards. If you don't agree with us on this issue you are able to write your game to monopolistic standards since you get the source.
Bottom line is this: we cannot write your game for you. An engine can give you a leg up to make your game, but it is not a miracle. Finding an engine, recruiting a team and making your game is hard work. We are sincerely attempting to help people through this process and for many, many teams it is working.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#4
I dont know perhaps I believe we all should be aware and help on this matters.
I do not hate torque, au contraire, but this are questions that need thinking (or at least the people Im working with seems to think so) before seriously considering in shipping a game with it. I know that Jeff might not have all the answers now, but he must have some And I could really use those to answer back as well.
04/18/2002 (8:59 pm)
Oooops, now.. well yes I think I should have emailed this to jeff, and yes I agree the community can do is share too. (It already has)I dont know perhaps I believe we all should be aware and help on this matters.
I do not hate torque, au contraire, but this are questions that need thinking (or at least the people Im working with seems to think so) before seriously considering in shipping a game with it. I know that Jeff might not have all the answers now, but he must have some And I could really use those to answer back as well.
#5
However, overall, I don't think you can get a better deal than licensing TGE. If you and your investors think one of the more well-known engines is less risky, go ahead and license that. If you want to minimize cost, go ahead and use a free engine, but I don't think anybody could say that the free engines have a proven record.
04/18/2002 (9:06 pm)
JeffT has said most of my opinion too, but as he's an employee and I'm not, it's probably easier for me to say that I *don't* think TGE is the "prettiest" engine out there, and that it is lacking a bit in the cutting-edge rendering department. This is being addressed by the community.However, overall, I don't think you can get a better deal than licensing TGE. If you and your investors think one of the more well-known engines is less risky, go ahead and license that. If you want to minimize cost, go ahead and use a free engine, but I don't think anybody could say that the free engines have a proven record.
#6
Thanks for the show of support. Please post some screenshots of rendering in any shipping engine that you feel is better than a screen from Realm Wars. Then, please explain to me what you think it is the TGE is missing in order for it to be "cutting edge." This is not to glib, but to understand your conception of the latest rendering so we can figure out if this is perception or reality.
@Everybody Else:
I have no problem with this being posted in a public forum. GarageGames is a great idea and the Torque is one of the good things about our business. I don't mind defending it. On the other hand, we can't be all things to all people, and our idea will not work for some.
Jeff Tunnell GG
04/18/2002 (9:25 pm)
@Simon:Thanks for the show of support. Please post some screenshots of rendering in any shipping engine that you feel is better than a screen from Realm Wars. Then, please explain to me what you think it is the TGE is missing in order for it to be "cutting edge." This is not to glib, but to understand your conception of the latest rendering so we can figure out if this is perception or reality.
@Everybody Else:
I have no problem with this being posted in a public forum. GarageGames is a great idea and the Torque is one of the good things about our business. I don't mind defending it. On the other hand, we can't be all things to all people, and our idea will not work for some.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#7
This reminds me of the uber "so you want to be a gamer" thread.
GG/Torque can't give us everything on the silver platter. They give us a copper one we polish and coat with gold.
But I think the original poster was well mannered of course my reply here is not a flame.
Yes so maybe they don't have the latest everquest DX8 T&L functions but it's not like you can walk into sony and say hey man can I have your source code for free pls?
Let's see.. me with my 100$ bill vs. George Lucas landing on the roof of sony to get in line next to me for bidding for the rights to the source. I think sony will laugh at me and have lunch with George. I'll stick
with torque for now.
Randy...
04/18/2002 (10:28 pm)
A friend of mine has a business making shoes. He makes them by hand. With old machines. I ask him "aren't you worried about someone ripping you off"? He reply's yea but it's too much work for most people to do.This reminds me of the uber "so you want to be a gamer" thread.
GG/Torque can't give us everything on the silver platter. They give us a copper one we polish and coat with gold.
But I think the original poster was well mannered of course my reply here is not a flame.
Yes so maybe they don't have the latest everquest DX8 T&L functions but it's not like you can walk into sony and say hey man can I have your source code for free pls?
Let's see.. me with my 100$ bill vs. George Lucas landing on the roof of sony to get in line next to me for bidding for the rights to the source. I think sony will laugh at me and have lunch with George. I'll stick
with torque for now.
Randy...
#8
www.gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/reviews/0,10867,2861840,00.html
I am currently working on a new engine... and have had to pass on Torque due to it's licensing stipulations... I am waiting to see if some other form of license comes out that allows professionals usage of the technology outside of GarageGames website or under their sole representation...
The technical issues with the engine can be overcome with work... it's the licensing ones that concern me most... I would probably be using the Torque engine outside of these..
-J
04/18/2002 (10:33 pm)
Here is a link to a gamespot review for a game made with the last game engine I wrote... the game was completed in just over 4 months... I believe several games could be close to market with Torque... depending on the team's experience and the title's feature set..www.gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/reviews/0,10867,2861840,00.html
I am currently working on a new engine... and have had to pass on Torque due to it's licensing stipulations... I am waiting to see if some other form of license comes out that allows professionals usage of the technology outside of GarageGames website or under their sole representation...
The technical issues with the engine can be overcome with work... it's the licensing ones that concern me most... I would probably be using the Torque engine outside of these..
-J
#9
Dungeon Siege
Jedi Knight 2
RtcW
Freedom Force
This is of course hugely subjective, but I think these look prettier than current Realm Wars screenshots. They look "richer". Hey, I *said* it was subjective..
But I still licensed Torque because what's there already is good, and the potential is enormous. I truly understand why you are excited about GG.
What do I think would be good for Torque?
Support for real hardware shaders and/or a multitexturing pseudo-shader system like Q3.
As it happens, I know several people are already working in this area, so I have high hopes for the future.
Most everything else that I would like falls under the "game features" heading which I totally agree does not need to be part of the core engine, things such as a mechanism for saving the state of the mission (for save games in a single player game).
Bottom line - I think any indie developers seriously starting development of a game would be foolish to not license Torque to see what is and isn't included and what can be done with it.
04/18/2002 (10:33 pm)
Jeff - well, seeing as Realm Wars is still in development, surely other in-development projects are fair game? *grin* But you asked for shipping, sooo..Dungeon Siege
Jedi Knight 2
RtcW
Freedom Force
This is of course hugely subjective, but I think these look prettier than current Realm Wars screenshots. They look "richer". Hey, I *said* it was subjective..
But I still licensed Torque because what's there already is good, and the potential is enormous. I truly understand why you are excited about GG.
What do I think would be good for Torque?
Support for real hardware shaders and/or a multitexturing pseudo-shader system like Q3.
As it happens, I know several people are already working in this area, so I have high hopes for the future.
Most everything else that I would like falls under the "game features" heading which I totally agree does not need to be part of the core engine, things such as a mechanism for saving the state of the mission (for save games in a single player game).
Bottom line - I think any indie developers seriously starting development of a game would be foolish to not license Torque to see what is and isn't included and what can be done with it.
#10
I really liked your game review there man. Great job.
On the torque issue. Looks like you like the engine and tools. and maybe the community and website, but you don't like the license... bummer. But these GG guys got
to put food on the table too and I personally think it's a fair deal. It's not for everyone though. Don't always fixate on the $$$ if your career / company can prosper under torque then maybe it's worth more than face value later? Just maybe. Hope you change your mind.
Randy (torque pimp)...
04/18/2002 (10:42 pm)
JoshuaI really liked your game review there man. Great job.
On the torque issue. Looks like you like the engine and tools. and maybe the community and website, but you don't like the license... bummer. But these GG guys got
to put food on the table too and I personally think it's a fair deal. It's not for everyone though. Don't always fixate on the $$$ if your career / company can prosper under torque then maybe it's worth more than face value later? Just maybe. Hope you change your mind.
Randy (torque pimp)...
#12
However (isn't there always a "however"?), some things that are missing--or if they are there I haven't seen them used.
*I never cared for the water. Sure, it is multi-textured, but so what? Just doesn't look good. My preference is EMBM. This screenie isn't the best example, but http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,191945-38,00.html
To be honest, I thought this and the next were standard issue with modern engines.
*mirrors. Or can the shadows be changed into reflections?
*additive lighting and volumetric lights.
volumetric (the ceiling lights): http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,191945-6,00.html
what are the "unemplemented features"?
04/19/2002 (5:10 am)
In all fairness to GG and the Torque Engine, I think all of those screenshots could be faithfully reproduced in the engine. I've worked with the T2 engine long enough to realize that the potential hasn't yet been tapped.However (isn't there always a "however"?), some things that are missing--or if they are there I haven't seen them used.
*I never cared for the water. Sure, it is multi-textured, but so what? Just doesn't look good. My preference is EMBM. This screenie isn't the best example, but http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,191945-38,00.html
To be honest, I thought this and the next were standard issue with modern engines.
*mirrors. Or can the shadows be changed into reflections?
*additive lighting and volumetric lights.
volumetric (the ceiling lights): http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,191945-6,00.html
what are the "unemplemented features"?
#13
Anyhow, there *are* still shortcomings, like AI, advanced graphical features such as reflections/refractions,volumetric shadows e.t.c., but like Jeff always says: GG will not code the game for you!
And, there is already going lots of work into these issues by the community, e.g. Melv May is working on the graphical advancements like reflections (and he has already done awesome improvements of the waterblocks, e.t.c.), Phil is working to get an AI fundament into the engine, and so on...
So I'm really thankful for what GG is providing us, I think it's a great opportunity and this community should make the best out of it - and it surely will, cause there are lots of very talented people around here!
P.S. If you want to see *really* great water, have a look at Morrowind III. But I'm sure Melv will top that... ;-))
04/19/2002 (5:34 am)
Well, personally I think Torque is amazing!! You won't find any other engine for a 100 bucks that even comes close to Torque (I don't think Q3 comes close to it, and you know the price for that one...).Anyhow, there *are* still shortcomings, like AI, advanced graphical features such as reflections/refractions,volumetric shadows e.t.c., but like Jeff always says: GG will not code the game for you!
And, there is already going lots of work into these issues by the community, e.g. Melv May is working on the graphical advancements like reflections (and he has already done awesome improvements of the waterblocks, e.t.c.), Phil is working to get an AI fundament into the engine, and so on...
So I'm really thankful for what GG is providing us, I think it's a great opportunity and this community should make the best out of it - and it surely will, cause there are lots of very talented people around here!
P.S. If you want to see *really* great water, have a look at Morrowind III. But I'm sure Melv will top that... ;-))
#14
I don't have $200K to license some other engine or 20K hours to make a good one myself. To get an engine with as much potential as the TGE for $100 is a great deal, even if there are some royalties involved. The other engines I've checked out (anywhere near affordable for me) are either crap or have very limited potential. Maybe there's a better deal out there, but I haven't seen it.
Plus there are quite a few companies that start out by using an existing engine and later expand and eventual create their own engine when it's more feasible.
Just one comment about drivers - no game carries the most current drivers for everything. People always need to download them anyway.
04/19/2002 (5:40 am)
The way I look at it is like this - I don't have $200K to license some other engine or 20K hours to make a good one myself. To get an engine with as much potential as the TGE for $100 is a great deal, even if there are some royalties involved. The other engines I've checked out (anywhere near affordable for me) are either crap or have very limited potential. Maybe there's a better deal out there, but I haven't seen it.
Plus there are quite a few companies that start out by using an existing engine and later expand and eventual create their own engine when it's more feasible.
Just one comment about drivers - no game carries the most current drivers for everything. People always need to download them anyway.
#15
so threads like this make me laff, its like, have a clue dude, what do you expect for chump change. :)
04/19/2002 (6:04 am)
i agree for a hundred bucks ,no developer has any right to smite tge. iv'e modded for q3 since the source was released, i've dabbled in the q2 engine release ,and i even have q1 and doom2, but all of them engines put together dont compare with what you can do with torque. And torque cost me less, heh, developing in torque IS a fun game in itself,its easy,and stable (with the right version)you just need a lil patence as with any engine you deal with.so threads like this make me laff, its like, have a clue dude, what do you expect for chump change. :)
#16
Just one question though to Jeff, I have been approached by a magazine asking me if i could allow them to have a demo of my game, can this be done can i give it to them?
04/19/2002 (6:37 am)
that water is amazing,although i have got the water in my game close enough, with texturing, anyways my thought on this for $100 it has let me do one of things i dream of doing and that is make games, even though i have to do some of things myself(thats where the fun is) but what would be the point in having GG do the coding for us, instead of making a game we would moding that is my view, as far as publishing, it is alright if it becomes a success your game some publisher might approach you in turn, GG sorts out all your deals, to me that is fine.Just one question though to Jeff, I have been approached by a magazine asking me if i could allow them to have a demo of my game, can this be done can i give it to them?
#17
And, I have no doubt Melv will do good. I still remember his Stargate from WildTangent. Neato. :)
WT is free for hobbiests, as is Lithtech (unless they've changed directions recently)--though I don't believe either offer source code. I don't begrudge GG for charging the small amount of US$100. I'm also glad they aren't asking the community to do alot of work for nothing--they've said from the start that there would be a compensation plan. I also think the TGE has alot of potential.
I suppose that what has tarnished my visions of the torque are two-fold: 1) that in my six month or so absence from coming here, the "aura" (for lack of better term) of the forums seems different--more sarcasm, perhaps? Definately less condusive for new people (I believe Harold addressed this?).
and 2) the "something for nothing" attitude. I believe Burning Studios was one of those that chastised anyone considering making Torque modelling software and charging for it (FYI, our group is no longer pursuing this for that reason). Believe me, I know it's a whole lot easier to fix your car with a socket set than it is with pliers... or a spoon.:) But if you can't afford the set of nickel-plated tools then why begrudge autozone for not giving away theirs? lol
Not everyone is like the above examples... just got some bad juju from a few people.
Eric
04/19/2002 (6:53 am)
Nice water... makes me want to jump right in. ;)And, I have no doubt Melv will do good. I still remember his Stargate from WildTangent. Neato. :)
WT is free for hobbiests, as is Lithtech (unless they've changed directions recently)--though I don't believe either offer source code. I don't begrudge GG for charging the small amount of US$100. I'm also glad they aren't asking the community to do alot of work for nothing--they've said from the start that there would be a compensation plan. I also think the TGE has alot of potential.
I suppose that what has tarnished my visions of the torque are two-fold: 1) that in my six month or so absence from coming here, the "aura" (for lack of better term) of the forums seems different--more sarcasm, perhaps? Definately less condusive for new people (I believe Harold addressed this?).
and 2) the "something for nothing" attitude. I believe Burning Studios was one of those that chastised anyone considering making Torque modelling software and charging for it (FYI, our group is no longer pursuing this for that reason). Believe me, I know it's a whole lot easier to fix your car with a socket set than it is with pliers... or a spoon.:) But if you can't afford the set of nickel-plated tools then why begrudge autozone for not giving away theirs? lol
Not everyone is like the above examples... just got some bad juju from a few people.
Eric
#18
I looked at those screens - and what I see is good art - not better engine rendering features. All those shipped games have awesome art, and they certainly paid $$$ for it.
04/19/2002 (10:57 am)
Hey Simon,I looked at those screens - and what I see is good art - not better engine rendering features. All those shipped games have awesome art, and they certainly paid $$$ for it.
#19
Torque is a steal for $100 and it holds its own against any currently shipping engine. I didn't hesitate when buying a license even though my current project is not using Torque (its been in progress since before I knew about Torque and wouldn't adapt to Torque very easily since the architecture is fairly different). There are certainly areas that need improvement, but if you track the CVS, things have been improving steadily.
In terms of technology, all of the currently shipping major engines (including Torque) are pretty much equal. I'd agree with Mark that its mostly just artistic differences. Expecting GG/Torque games to look as good as games that have had upwards of 25 or more artists working on them for years is somewhat foolish, especially since good artists seem to tend to do the hobbiest development stuff a lot less than good programmers (though there are obviously exceptions, a few of the current Torque projects have great art).
The only concern I have about Torque is what happens if GG goes out of business in a year? Are you now stuck with a game you've toiled away at for months but can never release for legal reasons? I checked the FAQ and didn't really find an answer -- I'm sure this has been asked and answered in the forums somewhere but unfortunately the forum search feature on the site is pretty useless (only matches topics?). (And to be clear, I'm not expecting GG to go anywhere soon, but its always good to know the potential risks).
04/19/2002 (12:28 pm)
The ceiling lights in that UT shot that are referred to as volumetric lights are really just a couple of polygons with a gradiant alpha. (Quake3 does the same thing in many maps). The reason they are up on the ceiling is the effect would be ruined if you could walk through the light.. You can do this yourself in Torque, its just art, not high technology.Torque is a steal for $100 and it holds its own against any currently shipping engine. I didn't hesitate when buying a license even though my current project is not using Torque (its been in progress since before I knew about Torque and wouldn't adapt to Torque very easily since the architecture is fairly different). There are certainly areas that need improvement, but if you track the CVS, things have been improving steadily.
In terms of technology, all of the currently shipping major engines (including Torque) are pretty much equal. I'd agree with Mark that its mostly just artistic differences. Expecting GG/Torque games to look as good as games that have had upwards of 25 or more artists working on them for years is somewhat foolish, especially since good artists seem to tend to do the hobbiest development stuff a lot less than good programmers (though there are obviously exceptions, a few of the current Torque projects have great art).
The only concern I have about Torque is what happens if GG goes out of business in a year? Are you now stuck with a game you've toiled away at for months but can never release for legal reasons? I checked the FAQ and didn't really find an answer -- I'm sure this has been asked and answered in the forums somewhere but unfortunately the forum search feature on the site is pretty useless (only matches topics?). (And to be clear, I'm not expecting GG to go anywhere soon, but its always good to know the potential risks).
#20
Wildtangent focuses too much on their 'Webdriver' stuff for me to consider them..The webdriver idea is somewhat interesting but I'm more interested in making stand-alone games. Also their licensing terms are pretty vague and confusing.
Lithtech isn't free, I believe its like $500 to license, and that's with no source code AND you have to publish through RealArcade. I hate Real, and all their crappy bloated spyware-ridden software, so I'd never even consider doing that. The only benefit of Lithtech is it does have a really nice toolset.
04/19/2002 (12:37 pm)
Other notes...Wildtangent focuses too much on their 'Webdriver' stuff for me to consider them..The webdriver idea is somewhat interesting but I'm more interested in making stand-alone games. Also their licensing terms are pretty vague and confusing.
Lithtech isn't free, I believe its like $500 to license, and that's with no source code AND you have to publish through RealArcade. I hate Real, and all their crappy bloated spyware-ridden software, so I'd never even consider doing that. The only benefit of Lithtech is it does have a really nice toolset.
Torque 3D Owner Bruce Wallace
Just my opinion