Now that the awful topic is gone...

#1 $250 is not alot of money even for a game engine which is still in EARLY ADOPTER form. As it is, there isn't much
TSE can't yet do if you are willing to learn how to make it work the way you want it to. You will have to learn this regardless of what engine you use. $250 wouldn't even put tires on my car. For $250 I got TWO brilliantly designed game engines. I couldn't be happier with TSE, except of course if 1.0 were to arrive ;)

#2 Hey that's strange. I stupidly rose to some flame bait yesterday and today the thread is gone! Maybe it was the same one, I can't recall. Or have we a mysterious hand of god making political thread deletions now? Or am I going blind?

#3 I dont know about all of you but where I live 250 bucks is over a weeks paycheck lol 2 me that is a lot of money.

#4 Actually, it's not too mysterious that threads are moderated - it's just that GarageGames do not have the software inplace to lock them so they remove them completely instead.

What I do find mysterious is how someone resurrects a thread that obviously was taken away for a reason.

#5 Yeah, the language in the first post is suspiciously like an old acquaintance of this forum :-)

#6 Please :(

More posting about TSE and sharing of ideas and less complaining! It's sad when real interesting threads (technology stuff, etc.) have no answers but the "complaint" thread does.

To me this forum is a place for us developers to share information and help each other. It's not a Garage Games Tech Support forum where we expect all help/support to come from GG staff. If you look at it that way, then complains should be addressed to GG staff via email, not in the forums.

#7 So let me spin it around then. $250 is a good chunk of money for anyone at GarageGames. Why is it that we should further de-value our hard work just so people can feel better about not having the big red button that builds their game for them.

I was a student not very long ago, and $250 was a lot of money. Amazingly enough, people who sold text books didn't care. They still charged me $100 for a math text book. Then there was film and paper. Every time I messed up a big print, I tossed it and thought to myself, "Well there goes $1.50." What is the point of this? Simple. Most of the world doesn't give a rats ass if you are a student. And some realize it, and are just going to take advantage of you. (In the United States, there are organized institutions that are entirely devoted to that. We call them "college".) Or like buying software that you can't use outside of an educational setting, legally.

It's great. I sit here, reading the thread thinking, "I spent how long in front of that Xenon Alpha kit?" The room sounded like an airport runway that yelled obcinities. It overheated, crashed, emulated most graphical and enhanced CPU funtionality...so it was slow as hell. Yet I sat there, with no Xbox 360 experience (who had any, at that point, though?) and made TSE work.

I had a random "code audit" from a bootcamp attendee yesterday who told me to do a find-in-files in the TSE360 project for '#ifdef' and was astounded that there wasn't #ifdef WIN32 and such scattered all over the engine. I built, on the spot, and showed them that the exact same code could be compiled for the 360 as for the PC, and that the hardware abstraction worked so the game played the same...and could even be played over a network from PC to XBox 360, so that they could do full multi-player testing.

TSE is good code, and TSE ships games. If you can't ship a game on TSE, that is your fault, not mine.

#8 Let me see, making Art, 3d model, Terrain with something like Freeworld3d, Sound, Music, Scripting, every environments that suppose to be. That not what we want. But that the big work that suppose to be done to make a game.

Finishing the game engine, Finishing the editor that come with it, Finishing the import tool that come with it, Removing the bug exetera in that way we can use it and sell her game like a professional that not in my concern a big red button but a tool that every user wait to be able to make different style of game.

Am not saying that TSE is bad but are we buying TSE to make a game engine or we buying TSE to make a game.

#9 There have been very, very few games shipped by this community. That's reality. I expect less games to be shipped with TSE. If there are more, it will probably be due to adoption by teams that have shipped games before...

It's not about the engine's limitations. It's about people's own limitations and inability to execute what they can realistically ship. I have been reading these forums for over 5 years. In that time, very little has changed in the whole "I can't make games because TGE/TSE doesn't let me!" line of discussions. This is understandable, though I can understand how annoying/demoralizing it must be to GarageGames staff. It's a shame that the negative threads get so much more attention than the positive ones.

If you are spinning your wheels in frustration, perhaps evaluate your game's design, your teams size/experience/funding, and make some hard decisions. This is a bit more difficult than complaining that the man isn't letting you make your dream come true.

#10 So if it's a obligation to finish the game engine to be able to make a game with TSE why it's not in a statement before we buy it.

To remove the negative thread it's really simple the staff announce that the game engine will be finish at:


Yeah Mister Josh it's really a shame we can read some negative post her:
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=20054

#11 I am personally glad that personal arguments are never brought into a serious discussion to invalidate any credibility that a given developer might originally have had. It is always good to see strong arguments and not personal attacks. I am glad that no one here would consider sinking to such depths.

I am glad that we can all discuss things rationally without personal quibbles and jabs when we have no real arguments to make.

#12 So if it's a obligation to finish the game engine to be able to make a game with TSE why it's not in a statement before we buy it.

Um, they did, right on the TSE page:

"Early Adopter Release
The TSE is not yet complete and major components may change as it gets improved for the final release. It is available for developers who want to get an early jump on shader development. The TSE is not yet as stable a game development platform as the TGE, but it is already being used to produce several professional games. Experienced developers familiar with working on changing technology can get a jump on working with this new technology. Keep in mind that as we continue to develop and improve TSE through its Early Adopter period, some features will be modified and may even break for a time. As long as you are aware of these conditions, jump right in and have fun!"

They didn't hide anything from anyone, so stop complaining and start making your game.

#13 @Marcel: I understand you meant it as an attack, though that link is actually a good example of misplaced frustration. I don't recall what I was mad about, though I do remember wanting to close the GarageGames avenue once and for all so it would stop distracting me... sound crazy? I was under a lot of stress at the time :)

TSE 1.0 will also be "hard" to make games with... and I don't see GarageGames misrepresenting their products.

The advice from the people who have shipped games seems unanimous. Pick a game you can and want to make and make it. The process of finishing even one "small" game encompasses a tremendous amount of learning. Unfortunately, this is collective wisdom and can't be taught to individuals who believe they need relief mapping and vast amounts of lit terrain to make their "dream" game.

#14 Note sure about indies, but TGE was a godsend for our start-up game development studio. It allowed us to ship 5 low-budget games that would require a lot more time and personnel (aka: money) to make had we done everything from scratch. We started working with TSE recently, for building prototypes of bigger games we hope to sell to publishers.

After my experience with TGE, I can safely say I'll never go back to do professional game development on any engine without full source-code, ever. For me, no amount of built-in features can overshadow the ability of adding/modifying whatever feature I or my team want, without having to wait for updates.

#15 One thing I know for sure it's in a work-time the time it's money in another post the coder said that he is paid $50000.00 a year that fair for me.

Let's do this in that way I take 3 coder for six month to finish the game engine so this will cost me $75000.00 or we can play with this like a good boss so let just put $25000.00 to do that and the very important part of the game are still in 0% development.

To develop the other part of the game how much this will cost ?

Do you think that the user who buy TSE are ready or able to put such money to develop a game.

And the other part if you develop a game that will cost only $25000.00 how much game you need to sell just to enter in your dept, that if the gamer love tour game.

And the other part I know that GG need to make revenue on the game engine to be able to pay the coder who make the engine but perhaps the problem are there and this need to be resolve in other way to make revenue for this game engine.

Don't get we wrong am trying to understand why there are poor update to TSE and the way to bring more update to TSE. If GG need more money to put TSE at the place it suppose to be perhaps am willing to give more money to GG other than only pay $25000,00 for my code. And perhaps other user are willing to do that to.

#16 Marcel,

I don't know how to say this without coming off as offending - but can't you freaking read the other threads and the old thread about this? GarageGames are focusing more resources towards TSE and has been for a while. Get it already.

#17 Do you think that the user who buy TSE are ready or able to put such money to develop a game?

That is their fault for purchasing something they are incompetent of utilizing. Also, most independent developers either get friends who can program and don't want fifty grand a year right off the start, or they learn the basics themselves. That's all there is to it.

#18 A lot of people don't seem to realize that TGE is a lot more powerful then people give it credit. With all the new resources out there, it really does make it a solid game engine.

When i went to college for game development, a lot of people complaint all day saying the school was a waste of money, because the teachers weren't spoon feeding them everything there is to know about game dev. and what are they doing now. sitting at home, doing nothing with there lives. I myself took advantage of what i had, resources, and the people at my disposle to help me become a better coder. Yes there was a lot of self teaching. The school to me just supplied me with the tools needed. And because of that i manage to get work as a game developer in the game industry. Though i am not working anymore, i found that complainning, can only get you so far.

The reason i mention about my school, was because, the students that complain, are like the people here that complain. They want to be spoon fed, during this whole production of making a game. Most people(the complainners) here thinking they found the easy way out of making a game. The reality is, there no easy way to make a game. Most game productions do require some/serious modifications to ones engine. Like Call of Duty 2, was written using the Quake 3 engine, with some serious modifications to the engine.

Remember indie doesnt = easy.

@Marcel

You didnt anwser my last question on the other post. how old are you? like seriously, your acting like a child. maybe its because your french.

svp, prendre un certain temps de lire l'autre poteau de peuples, avant de repondre.

#19 I would like to comment on the cost numbers depicted up there. That's an awful lot of money for an indie project, IMO. Maybe your just making the wrong type of games. You can produce quality games with very little artwork if you try to do the proper type of games. Even if you want to do something in a competitive market like First Person Shooters though, you should be able to get by on much less even if you outsource.

#20 T Squared is a troll. Even worse, one that can't spell. I don't believe he went to *any* school, at any time in his life. Ignore him Marcel.