Moving from Flash to Torque 2D
by Mindworks Learning · in Torque Game Builder · 06/15/2006 (1:28 pm) · 7 replies
Hello,
I work for an educational game company. We just completed our first product, which is a suite of Flash games that works on coginitive enhancement in kids. We have a variety of games from simple side-scrolling stuff, to drag-and-drop activities.
Flash has served us well, but we've hit a wall in terms of its performance. It's works fine for any games with static backgrounds, but as soon as things start scrolling it gets very choppy. Towards the end of development we decided to start investigating different game engines for our next project and we decided on Torque 2D.
I noticed some threads regarding Flash, and I was curious what experience people have had moving from Flash to Torque. What are the biggest differences you've noticed? What does Torque do better than Flash? What does Flash do better than Torque?
Will K
I work for an educational game company. We just completed our first product, which is a suite of Flash games that works on coginitive enhancement in kids. We have a variety of games from simple side-scrolling stuff, to drag-and-drop activities.
Flash has served us well, but we've hit a wall in terms of its performance. It's works fine for any games with static backgrounds, but as soon as things start scrolling it gets very choppy. Towards the end of development we decided to start investigating different game engines for our next project and we decided on Torque 2D.
I noticed some threads regarding Flash, and I was curious what experience people have had moving from Flash to Torque. What are the biggest differences you've noticed? What does Torque do better than Flash? What does Flash do better than Torque?
Will K
About the author
#2
It always amazes me when people try to sell Flash short like this. Obviously, you've only used Flash "very little" or you wouldn't make such statements. Yes, it's not the most efficient engine in the world, that's why I'm using TGB for serious game development. But, if you have some programming skills and a little creativity you can do truly amazing things with it.
Using Flash, I've created music mixers, physics simulators, ISO tile based games and RIAs. Within reason, you're only limited by your skills and imagination.
To use a music analogy: A Stradivarius in the hands of an unskilled amateur will sound uninspired and bland but a cheap violin in the hands of a skilled and inspired musician will be a thing of untold beauty.
06/16/2006 (3:44 am)
Check this out and then tell me that Flash is only for "website stuff": linkIt always amazes me when people try to sell Flash short like this. Obviously, you've only used Flash "very little" or you wouldn't make such statements. Yes, it's not the most efficient engine in the world, that's why I'm using TGB for serious game development. But, if you have some programming skills and a little creativity you can do truly amazing things with it.
Using Flash, I've created music mixers, physics simulators, ISO tile based games and RIAs. Within reason, you're only limited by your skills and imagination.
To use a music analogy: A Stradivarius in the hands of an unskilled amateur will sound uninspired and bland but a cheap violin in the hands of a skilled and inspired musician will be a thing of untold beauty.
#3
06/16/2006 (2:17 pm)
It seems to me Flash isn't being used as a game engine so much except for small, free browser games and maybe some casual games. I've only heard of a few commercial non-browser games made in Flash and even those use performance enhancing tools to allow them to run at reasonable rates. Maybe there are more games that keep the fact they are Flash a secret, who knows. Don't get me wrong I know it's great for many things, but I doubt it can beat TGB for creating large crossplatform non-browser games in a reasonable timeframe.
#4
I wouldn't describe Flash as a game engine, maybe a multimedia development platform (or something...). But certainly you can make games and game elements with it. One thing I'm excited about is exporting a Flash movie as a png sequence and using that for animated sprites. Also I have heard of companies using Flash for menus and other development tools for other elements.
It wasn't really my intent for this to turn into a Flash vs. Torque thread. There's no competition and as I mentioned above I think they can be use in conjunction with each other. I'm more curious about what experience people have had developing for both. Here are some early observation I've made:
- Flash is more artist friendly where TGB has more programmer oriented. If I knew someone with an artistic background who wanted to start making games I recommend Flash. The built in animation and drawing tools combined with a little Actionscript can go a long way. If they had a programming background I'd recommend TGB.
- Flash has a great documentation included in it. TGB is ok, but there seems to be an expectation of a fair amount of exploration on the part of the user. That's fine, not everyone wants their hand held while they're learning new technologies.
- Torque has great built-in collision and physics support. Flash doesn't really have any.
- I do like that Actionscript is ECMAscript compliant. I nice that I can just refer to ECMA (or Javascript) documentation for core language questions I have. TorqueScript is good, but it'd be nice if there was an official language reference included (does an official one exist?)
-Built in input device support in Torque is GREAT!!! You can do it in Flash but it requires some ActiveX control hacking. (BTW you're not limited to just Actionscript with Flash, there is c-level extensibility but I've never used it).
I'm sure I'll find more as time goes on but that's all for now...
06/16/2006 (4:08 pm)
I agree with Dennis, Flash like TGB is really just a tool and in the right hands you can develop some cool stuff with it. Alien Hominid is a good example of great graphics, cool game design and good gameplay all done in Flash. I assume the console ports are developed with something else, but the original was all done in Flash.I wouldn't describe Flash as a game engine, maybe a multimedia development platform (or something...). But certainly you can make games and game elements with it. One thing I'm excited about is exporting a Flash movie as a png sequence and using that for animated sprites. Also I have heard of companies using Flash for menus and other development tools for other elements.
It wasn't really my intent for this to turn into a Flash vs. Torque thread. There's no competition and as I mentioned above I think they can be use in conjunction with each other. I'm more curious about what experience people have had developing for both. Here are some early observation I've made:
- Flash is more artist friendly where TGB has more programmer oriented. If I knew someone with an artistic background who wanted to start making games I recommend Flash. The built in animation and drawing tools combined with a little Actionscript can go a long way. If they had a programming background I'd recommend TGB.
- Flash has a great documentation included in it. TGB is ok, but there seems to be an expectation of a fair amount of exploration on the part of the user. That's fine, not everyone wants their hand held while they're learning new technologies.
- Torque has great built-in collision and physics support. Flash doesn't really have any.
- I do like that Actionscript is ECMAscript compliant. I nice that I can just refer to ECMA (or Javascript) documentation for core language questions I have. TorqueScript is good, but it'd be nice if there was an official language reference included (does an official one exist?)
-Built in input device support in Torque is GREAT!!! You can do it in Flash but it requires some ActiveX control hacking. (BTW you're not limited to just Actionscript with Flash, there is c-level extensibility but I've never used it).
I'm sure I'll find more as time goes on but that's all for now...
#5
@Dennis: I did check out that link. That game has a really nice look. Downloading it now. Indeed, it's not what you use, but how you use it. :)
EDIT: Ha! That game is kinda cool. Too bad the combat isn't a little more fast paced (love turn-based, but ouch), pretty damn impressive for a browser game, for sure... Interesting how natural a browser is for an online-rpg, lol.
EDIT: After playing that game for a little while, I got to thinking about all those free 2D online rpg's... Here's another (definately not Flash, but nifty as well www.mapleglobal.com. It only wants Internet Explorer so beware, lol).
Anyway, what I'm wondering is: how do those free online rpg's make any money? They must be gettin' paid by advertisers or something, eh?
EDIT: OMG! $699 US to buy Flash? Ok, I admit it's capabilities, but $699 US compared to what you get with TGB? No freakin' way, lmao. I know that nobody was saying to get Flash, I just couldn't believe that price when I saw it. Especially against what you get with TGB.
06/16/2006 (10:59 pm)
Hey, like I said, only used Flash 'very little'. Wasn't trying to say anything about it. It's a very useful tool. All I meant was that it wasn't a game engine... but I suppose a game that runs in a browser is still a game. :P@Dennis: I did check out that link. That game has a really nice look. Downloading it now. Indeed, it's not what you use, but how you use it. :)
EDIT: Ha! That game is kinda cool. Too bad the combat isn't a little more fast paced (love turn-based, but ouch), pretty damn impressive for a browser game, for sure... Interesting how natural a browser is for an online-rpg, lol.
EDIT: After playing that game for a little while, I got to thinking about all those free 2D online rpg's... Here's another (definately not Flash, but nifty as well www.mapleglobal.com. It only wants Internet Explorer so beware, lol).
Anyway, what I'm wondering is: how do those free online rpg's make any money? They must be gettin' paid by advertisers or something, eh?
EDIT: OMG! $699 US to buy Flash? Ok, I admit it's capabilities, but $699 US compared to what you get with TGB? No freakin' way, lmao. I know that nobody was saying to get Flash, I just couldn't believe that price when I saw it. Especially against what you get with TGB.
#6
You could certainly argue that Flash is overpriced but what you're really paying for is its polish, user-friendliness, documentation and the player's ubiquity (96% penetration). I mean, technically, Adobe's Director is FAR superior for creating browser based games than Flash. It has built-in 3D support, the engine is far more efficient than Flash's, and it's pretty polished and easy to use. But the Shockwave player only has a penetration rate of around 50% so it's usefulness is severely diminished. And actually, comparing TGB to Director is probably a more realistic comparision. A lot of very popular downloadable games are made with Director.
The bottom line as William stated is they're different tools for different tasks. The only reason Flash gets compared to Torque is because you can make a game with it in addition to everything else, whereas you can't really make a website with TGB. ;)
My dream situation would be to use Flash for all of the GUI stuff (menu, in-game HUD, option screen, help/tutorial system, etc.) and then have Torque be dedicated solely to the gameplay itself. There are tools to help facilitate this like GameSWF but by using it, you're taking out the multi-platform aspect of TGB which is no good.
Anyway, I appreciate the dialog and I'm not trying to be a Flash nazi here. I just want to clear up some of the misinformation since Flash can do a lot more than people typically give it credit for. But for pure game development? TGB wins hands down. It's not even a fair fight, really. :)
06/17/2006 (1:52 pm)
You're totally right. Flash is not a game engine. With Flash, the classic phrase applies, "Jack of all trades, master of none." With Torque it's totally just one thing: Master of 2D game development, period. As I said, that's why I'm using Torque for my serious game dev.You could certainly argue that Flash is overpriced but what you're really paying for is its polish, user-friendliness, documentation and the player's ubiquity (96% penetration). I mean, technically, Adobe's Director is FAR superior for creating browser based games than Flash. It has built-in 3D support, the engine is far more efficient than Flash's, and it's pretty polished and easy to use. But the Shockwave player only has a penetration rate of around 50% so it's usefulness is severely diminished. And actually, comparing TGB to Director is probably a more realistic comparision. A lot of very popular downloadable games are made with Director.
The bottom line as William stated is they're different tools for different tasks. The only reason Flash gets compared to Torque is because you can make a game with it in addition to everything else, whereas you can't really make a website with TGB. ;)
My dream situation would be to use Flash for all of the GUI stuff (menu, in-game HUD, option screen, help/tutorial system, etc.) and then have Torque be dedicated solely to the gameplay itself. There are tools to help facilitate this like GameSWF but by using it, you're taking out the multi-platform aspect of TGB which is no good.
Anyway, I appreciate the dialog and I'm not trying to be a Flash nazi here. I just want to clear up some of the misinformation since Flash can do a lot more than people typically give it credit for. But for pure game development? TGB wins hands down. It's not even a fair fight, really. :)
#7
-TGB has collision detection! This is great. Games need it, it's easy.
-TGB has physics. My experience so far has been lukewarm (I expected it to do a lot, but it doesn't perform as well as the physics sim we used in my physics class back in high school on 10 year old Macs.) I'm sure this will get better, and Flash has nothing near it anyway. (That I know of so far.)
-Flash's GUI makes it very easy to create motion and movies.
-Flash's GUI ties into actionscript in the weirdest ways. Just today at work I wanted to access and set depth values directly...but you can't. The GUI layers for clips aren't even represented in actionscript for some reason.
-Community + support: not sure on this one. GG makes it very easy to talk to people and the community instantly answers any question. The docs on both sides are kinda annoying. (I hate the Flash help search tool. If I type "movieclip" it should give me the freakin' MovieClip object document, not every single document that has the word in it... and there aren't any options either...)
-I'll say this again because it pissed me off for a while. Flash was clearly made as a GUI for development and then actionscript was tacked on (Actually, I have no idea, but it seems that way). Things like cloning (which is called "duplicating" in the GUI and has to be done wonkily in actionscript) should be better integrated. There a lot of things like that that are really easy in TGB. Or are they? Almost all the time, when I look for a function in TGB, there's a function for it. In Flash, not so much.
They both can do lots of stuff easily from what I've seen. However, TGB is for games. It doesn't have crap that games don't need.
06/20/2006 (9:42 pm)
I've had a very odd experience with both because I'm interning at an educational movie company where I'm making Math "interactives" in Flash and I downloaded TGB last week. I'm learning both at the same time. My thoughts so far:-TGB has collision detection! This is great. Games need it, it's easy.
-TGB has physics. My experience so far has been lukewarm (I expected it to do a lot, but it doesn't perform as well as the physics sim we used in my physics class back in high school on 10 year old Macs.) I'm sure this will get better, and Flash has nothing near it anyway. (That I know of so far.)
-Flash's GUI makes it very easy to create motion and movies.
-Flash's GUI ties into actionscript in the weirdest ways. Just today at work I wanted to access and set depth values directly...but you can't. The GUI layers for clips aren't even represented in actionscript for some reason.
-Community + support: not sure on this one. GG makes it very easy to talk to people and the community instantly answers any question. The docs on both sides are kinda annoying. (I hate the Flash help search tool. If I type "movieclip" it should give me the freakin' MovieClip object document, not every single document that has the word in it... and there aren't any options either...)
-I'll say this again because it pissed me off for a while. Flash was clearly made as a GUI for development and then actionscript was tacked on (Actually, I have no idea, but it seems that way). Things like cloning (which is called "duplicating" in the GUI and has to be done wonkily in actionscript) should be better integrated. There a lot of things like that that are really easy in TGB. Or are they? Almost all the time, when I look for a function in TGB, there's a function for it. In Flash, not so much.
They both can do lots of stuff easily from what I've seen. However, TGB is for games. It doesn't have crap that games don't need.
Torque Owner C. N.
What does Torque do that's better than Flash? Think of a big adventure game like Zelda on the Super Nintendo or Mario Bros. I wouldn't try to make those games in Flash, but with Torque you could for sure.
EDIT: Well... Flash isn't JUST for website stuff, but it's certainly not a game engine.