How many units (in Worldcraft) is ONE Metre in the v12 engine ?
by TalRasha · in General Discussion · 04/08/2002 (6:11 am) · 15 replies
How many units (in Worldcraft) is ONE Metre in the v12 engine ?
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#3
A grid size of 8 has 8 units in each direction and a grid size of 4 has 4 in each direction etc....
// Clocks out
04/08/2002 (9:58 am)
32 units are still 32 units no matter what the grid size is.A grid size of 8 has 8 units in each direction and a grid size of 4 has 4 in each direction etc....
// Clocks out
#4
SquareSize is measured in meters. The default is 8, making a square 8m x 8m.
1 meter is, by default, represented as 32 units (pixels). Thus, 1 default square is 8m * (32 pixels/ 1m) or 256 pixels on a side (probably not coincidentally, the size of a terrain texture).
Of course, you can alter the 32 units = 1m relationship, or alter the 8m = 1 square relationship, and it all changes accordingly. So if we keep the 32 units (pixels) per meter relationship (I recommend this), but change the squareSize to 4, 1 meter is still the same distance (32 pixels or meters), but the square is only 4 meters (128 pixels) on a side (and a terrain texture now covers a 2x2 block of squares), allowing more detailed terrain (structure-wise, not texture-wise), but reducing it to ~1 km (actually 1024 m) total size before it repeats (as opposed to the normal ~2 km per side). SquareSize does not really change the scale, only the level of terrain structure detail available.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that's the whole banana...
04/08/2002 (10:44 am)
Er, to clarify a bit, I believe it works like this...SquareSize is measured in meters. The default is 8, making a square 8m x 8m.
1 meter is, by default, represented as 32 units (pixels). Thus, 1 default square is 8m * (32 pixels/ 1m) or 256 pixels on a side (probably not coincidentally, the size of a terrain texture).
Of course, you can alter the 32 units = 1m relationship, or alter the 8m = 1 square relationship, and it all changes accordingly. So if we keep the 32 units (pixels) per meter relationship (I recommend this), but change the squareSize to 4, 1 meter is still the same distance (32 pixels or meters), but the square is only 4 meters (128 pixels) on a side (and a terrain texture now covers a 2x2 block of squares), allowing more detailed terrain (structure-wise, not texture-wise), but reducing it to ~1 km (actually 1024 m) total size before it repeats (as opposed to the normal ~2 km per side). SquareSize does not really change the scale, only the level of terrain structure detail available.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that's the whole banana...
#5
at a grid-size of 8, 8 grids are one square, and one square is one meter?
tell me, if I'm wrong!
04/08/2002 (11:29 am)
So if I understand that right:at a grid-size of 8, 8 grids are one square, and one square is one meter?
tell me, if I'm wrong!
#6
Ok, lemme back up.
I assume that you want to know how big to make objects in WC, correct? In that case, by default, 32 units in WC is equal to 1 meter in Torque (where 1 WC unit = 1 grid square at a grid size of 1). In that case, if you set your grid size to 8 in WC, 4 grid squares in WC = 1 meter. Is that what you were asking? If so, I apologize for confusing you with Torque terrain stuff...
[edit] Yah, I'm an idiot. I misread where you and Clocks were going with this... doh. Simply put, if you are using the default 1 m = 32 units in WC, then:
@ grid size 4 --> 8 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 8 --> 4 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 16 --> 2 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 32 --> 1 grid square = 1 m
@ grid size 64 --> 1 grid square = 2 m
Did I finally answer the right question? :]
04/08/2002 (11:57 am)
Quote:So if I understand that right:Er, no. I think you may be confusing the terrain grid size with the Worldcraft grid size. Or mebbe not... I'm confused by this question a bit. Everything except the units measurement above is applied to Torque terrains and not WC.
at a grid-size of 8, 8 grids are one square, and one square is one meter?
Ok, lemme back up.
I assume that you want to know how big to make objects in WC, correct? In that case, by default, 32 units in WC is equal to 1 meter in Torque (where 1 WC unit = 1 grid square at a grid size of 1). In that case, if you set your grid size to 8 in WC, 4 grid squares in WC = 1 meter. Is that what you were asking? If so, I apologize for confusing you with Torque terrain stuff...
[edit] Yah, I'm an idiot. I misread where you and Clocks were going with this... doh. Simply put, if you are using the default 1 m = 32 units in WC, then:
@ grid size 4 --> 8 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 8 --> 4 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 16 --> 2 grid squares = 1 m
@ grid size 32 --> 1 grid square = 1 m
@ grid size 64 --> 1 grid square = 2 m
Did I finally answer the right question? :]
#7
I wasn't sure about that, so I allways made it by feel! I'll try it one a time!
04/09/2002 (1:47 am)
yeah, now I have to agree with you. I wasn't sure about that, so I allways made it by feel! I'll try it one a time!
#8
I've tested and found out that the character in the default app seems to be pretty much exactly 80 units high. That would fit for 20 m (taking into account the boots and helmet). So 40 units = 1 m.
With 32 units = 1 m, that guy would be 2.5 m large. Pretty tall guy. :-)
Also, I've created a couple structures (houses, a bridge, etc.) with the 4units = 1m scale. If anything, they look too SMALL, definitely not too big. That's the purely visual impression from first-person perspective.
04/09/2002 (1:00 pm)
the 32 units sounds weird to me for one reason:I've tested and found out that the character in the default app seems to be pretty much exactly 80 units high. That would fit for 20 m (taking into account the boots and helmet). So 40 units = 1 m.
With 32 units = 1 m, that guy would be 2.5 m large. Pretty tall guy. :-)
Also, I've created a couple structures (houses, a bridge, etc.) with the 4units = 1m scale. If anything, they look too SMALL, definitely not too big. That's the purely visual impression from first-person perspective.
#9
He is just a tall as te hTribes 2 guys/gals which is well over 2 meter.
So you got that right, which means that 32 unit is still = 1 meter.
// Clocks out
04/09/2002 (1:05 pm)
The defaulf blue guy in TGE is indeed a tall fellor.He is just a tall as te hTribes 2 guys/gals which is well over 2 meter.
So you got that right, which means that 32 unit is still = 1 meter.
// Clocks out
#10
I posted this awhile back, it's scale I made (pixel measurement) for reference in making structures for T2. Also, here's an email I received back in Jan 01 from Craig Maitlen (former Dynamix artist) concerning the measurements.
So that sounds about right, players are 6 ft tall with a few inches of armor.
*edit* - posted link instead of full pic
04/09/2002 (2:11 pm)
www.planettribes.com/tsrr/scale.jpgI posted this awhile back, it's scale I made (pixel measurement) for reference in making structures for T2. Also, here's an email I received back in Jan 01 from Craig Maitlen (former Dynamix artist) concerning the measurements.
Quote:[Craig Maitlen] The minimum width for openings in T2 for a player is 256. The reasoning for this dimension was to allow 2 heavies to pass each other in a hallway without a collision problem. The height is proportionate to this, depending on the design of your interior. FYI ....... 32 unites in WorldCraft = 1 meter in the game, and the players are about 2 meters high. The aircraft ( vehicles) have different dimensions and are all special cases. We have a vehicle bay that has an opening of 512 high x 768 wide.
So that sounds about right, players are 6 ft tall with a few inches of armor.
*edit* - posted link instead of full pic
#11
As I said, visual impression in the test app is that a tunnel I made that's 160 units wide simply doesn't LOOK like 4m (my scale), much less 5m (32 units scale). Not even when the player (80 units high) stands right in front of it and you're looking from 1st person perspective.
04/09/2002 (10:04 pm)
Hm, weird or is it my eyes? According to the picture above, 1m would be more like 64 units. Or is the texture scaled (to 50%)?As I said, visual impression in the test app is that a tunnel I made that's 160 units wide simply doesn't LOOK like 4m (my scale), much less 5m (32 units scale). Not even when the player (80 units high) stands right in front of it and you're looking from 1st person perspective.
#12
thanks all!
04/10/2002 (9:09 am)
I'm not sure about the units, but all I have to know (at the moment) is that at a grid size of 8 one meter is equal 4 grid squares! thanks all!
#13
Make an interior that is simply an elongated rectangle. In WC units, make it 32x32x320. Texture it with a texture that is a 2x2 checkerboard with a 1 pixel wide red line along 2 edges. Adjust the texture in WC so that on a long side of your object the texture is exactly 2 checkersquares wide and 20 long. Export it to .dif.
This is a 'yardstick'. It will be 1m x 1m x 10m in size, with the black and white squares being 0.5 meters and red lines every meter.
Load this into Torque. Don't resize it initially. Drag it around. Measure things. Use this as your standard of length. Figure out how big stuff needs to be to look and work right and make notes to refer back to later. This creates consistently right-sized whatevers.
Want to know how far 50 meters is? In the Torque World Editor, resize the yarstick to a size of 5 5 5 (or once you know what dimensions apply to what on the yardstic, you can just resize on one axis, like 5 1 1), and measure.
Keep in mind that the models in T2/Torque are not normal human size, so you either need new models or a new concept of normal size. Also remember that what looks right in 3rd person may look all wrong in 1st person. This is because the eye point of the model is not correct proportionate to a human. And remember that you will likely have to make the doorways wider than what looks right, otherwise players will get caught on the doorjam or won't be able to pass in opposite directions.
The bottom line? By doing what I suggest above, the real scale becomes irrelavant. And a good thing too, because conditions may (most likely will) make 'realistic' proportions and sizes impractical. Just use the yardstick and your notes to get in the proper neighborhood measurement-wise and eyeball the final adjustments in both 1st and 3rd person (to find the reasonable compromise).
BTW, these issues have existed in every game I've done structures for - Doom1/2, DN3D, Q1/2, T1/2, etc...
04/10/2002 (11:40 am)
The problem is that the models in T2, and AFAIK in Torque, are not modeled for a normal human size. I think Tyler's textures may be compressed. You could always do what I did in T2 (and it is similar to what Tyler did):Make an interior that is simply an elongated rectangle. In WC units, make it 32x32x320. Texture it with a texture that is a 2x2 checkerboard with a 1 pixel wide red line along 2 edges. Adjust the texture in WC so that on a long side of your object the texture is exactly 2 checkersquares wide and 20 long. Export it to .dif.
This is a 'yardstick'. It will be 1m x 1m x 10m in size, with the black and white squares being 0.5 meters and red lines every meter.
Load this into Torque. Don't resize it initially. Drag it around. Measure things. Use this as your standard of length. Figure out how big stuff needs to be to look and work right and make notes to refer back to later. This creates consistently right-sized whatevers.
Want to know how far 50 meters is? In the Torque World Editor, resize the yarstick to a size of 5 5 5 (or once you know what dimensions apply to what on the yardstic, you can just resize on one axis, like 5 1 1), and measure.
Keep in mind that the models in T2/Torque are not normal human size, so you either need new models or a new concept of normal size. Also remember that what looks right in 3rd person may look all wrong in 1st person. This is because the eye point of the model is not correct proportionate to a human. And remember that you will likely have to make the doorways wider than what looks right, otherwise players will get caught on the doorjam or won't be able to pass in opposite directions.
The bottom line? By doing what I suggest above, the real scale becomes irrelavant. And a good thing too, because conditions may (most likely will) make 'realistic' proportions and sizes impractical. Just use the yardstick and your notes to get in the proper neighborhood measurement-wise and eyeball the final adjustments in both 1st and 3rd person (to find the reasonable compromise).
BTW, these issues have existed in every game I've done structures for - Doom1/2, DN3D, Q1/2, T1/2, etc...
#14
For some reason, it doesn't "figure out" in torque. What looks like I'll hit the roof any second in 1st person has more than enough space to spare in 3rd. An entrance I created that's 160 units wide looks like 2m in-game. But if you put the player in there and switch to 3rd person, 4m is (although barely) believable.
It's mostly an IMPRESSION. I don't know how it's created or why. Maybe movement speed is a factor? Does the guy in the example app move much faster than his size would realistically allow? I'll probably measure that. He definitely jumps pretty high (64 units).
04/10/2002 (12:24 pm)
Yeah, I know. I've done a couple maps for a Q3 realism mod. I've tried to arrive at a sensible scale the same way I did there - by measuring in-game how high the player is and by just doing a couple structures and checking them out.For some reason, it doesn't "figure out" in torque. What looks like I'll hit the roof any second in 1st person has more than enough space to spare in 3rd. An entrance I created that's 160 units wide looks like 2m in-game. But if you put the player in there and switch to 3rd person, 4m is (although barely) believable.
It's mostly an IMPRESSION. I don't know how it's created or why. Maybe movement speed is a factor? Does the guy in the example app move much faster than his size would realistically allow? I'll probably measure that. He definitely jumps pretty high (64 units).
#15
But I've realized too that often in 3rd-person seems to bee much bigger than in 1st-person.
Can you tell me, how high the standard player is? (in WorldCraft)
04/10/2002 (12:41 pm)
I just know, that 4 grid squares at a grid-size of 8 in WorldCraft are the best high of a railing. Other way the player just walks over.But I've realized too that often in 3rd-person seems to bee much bigger than in 1st-person.
Can you tell me, how high the standard player is? (in WorldCraft)
Torque Owner Karsten "Clocks" Viese
// Clocks out