T2D (TGB) License

#21

Quote:
Soon the only way to make games with T2D will be the Level Editor, because you don't have the source, and wont be able to use the tools without it.

What do you mean you won't have the source? You have all the source to everything to make whatever game you want. The people who buy your game won't have that, but why do they need it? I'm working away on my game, and I have never touched the Level Editor. The Level Editor is just there to simplify the creation process, it in no way forces you to build your games that way. You don't like the Level Editor, don't use it. You want to add new custom classes on the C++ side to change things, do it. You want to create a script API so that users can mod you game, go for it. Our game, InsectaBall, will be shipping with a full featured editor created by us to allow users to make new levels in the game. There is no reason you can't do the same.

#22 Ricky,

I think I understand you now, and you're basing your assumptions on a misunderstanding of exactly what the level builder is. It seems to me that you think the level builder is there to take the place of torque script. You are mistaken. It is only there to speed the development process.

Think of it this way. When Epic made the latest version of unreal tournament, they used they're level building tool (unreal ed) to create the level, setup the spawn points, add entities/weapons/etc into the game. All of this was done with a level building tool. Then the logic behind those things were done in unreal script (or whatever it's called). That is no different than what is happening here with TGB and the level builder.

#23 @Doug & Mathew

I agree that T2D is a good product. But it's learning curve isn't really that simple.I learned it very fast mostly because I already knew TGE.

Quote:
You would have a point if these were the only types of games you could make with TGB, but they're not. You can create very rich and complex games because you're working with a very rich and complex engine. Write a platform game, or write a Gish type game, and then tell me if you still feel that a 2D game is just an idea and art. There is a need for complex game logic as well. Let's just say I disagree with you here.

Quote:
Bruno, I really think you're downplaying the value of 2D games these days as well as the complexity of some of them. Look at Age of Empires, Diablo II, Viewtiful Joe, etc. Those are much more than just art and idea.

In those cases you should purchase the engine. What I'm advocating is that the scripts should be OK to "distribute" in the public forums. Let people do their own version of Yeti hits penguin in T2D. I'm sure no one will be able to do a Diablo II w/o the docs.

#24 @Bruno: Except the docs, due to pretty strident customer demand, are now downloadable/electronically distributable (for the most part anyway), which means that the docs will be freely available to the Internet in very short order, if they haven't been already.

#25 Right... I'd like to clear another thing up ;)

We dont have the source to the editors....

Thats what I meant, yes... Mmmm...?

I can't create a new particle editor easily without wasting a lot of time....

Also I want to point another thing out.

T2D is awesome... Its not the engine I have the problem with, its the new name, the lisence, and the fact that we cant have the editor scripts AFAIK.

=)

@Doug: I know whats goin on here, see? =P I just dont say stuff right sometimes...
Just 'cos Im 15 doesn't mean I'm stupid... ='(

#26 I suspect the reason we don't have the script to the editors is because they're relatively new, and the code might be a bit messy/not suitable for public release.

I can't see that GG will hold back the source from us for too long. I mean, what's the point of giving us the keys to farm (engine source code), but putting a padlock on the oven door (no editor code).

I'm sure a GG person will be here to set the record straight on this though.

#27 Have we ever completely eliminated any way to access to the source code before ? :)

#28 Ricky - In T2D 1.02 (which you can still download) you have a perfectly rich and viable particle editor. I'm sure in a future beta of T2D they will address the current shortcoming and have a new, well integrated particle editor in the Level Builder.

Regarding source to the Level Builder, I think Justin noted in another thread that a final decision around source code was not made, but for now, the Level Builder has been moving fast and furiously and releasing source would cause more support and questions than they have bandwidth to support.

I recognize that you are frustrated, but relax... most of your technical concerns will be resolved in the future. The name TGB is staying, so I'm afraid you're going to have to live with that. And, as for the license, I'm sorry you are 15 and poor, but once again, that doesn't entitle you to "more". I hate to sound like a condescending jerk, but one day when you start working and building something real... you too will want to be rewarded for your work. Frankly, Garage Games is INSANE in my opinion for giving away all of their technology for the prices they are. They should easily be selling this stuff for 4 - 5 times the price. It would completely eliminate folks on a budget, like yourself, but they would also be able to make enough money at this to properly keep investing in the future.

Give GG a break... They've done a lot for us. No one is saying you are stupid... I think your perspective is just a little bit different than GG's and some of the community.

#29 Well, I'm gonna wind up this now... This thread has served its purpose.

Maybe people will take note of what I've said, maybe not.

Did you see the people saying "The name is bad, but"...

And "The liscence should be more like TGE". OK, maybe not so many of those...

The mob has spoken... =P

Note: Its times like this when you wish there was a "Lock Thread" button. ;)

#30 @Stephen

So please clarify something for me :

If the docs will be availble for DL, What can and cannot be posted on the T2D PUBLIC forum ?

#31 Currently, I would think that anything which reveals the inner workings of TGB would not be able to be on the public forum--as per the license.

#32 @David,

The problem is exactly this. In TGE, inner workings == C++. But what are the inner workings of TGB ?

#33 @Bruno: Predominately script APIs, with power users going into C++ for extra features / optimizations.

#34 @Jason :

This definition is still in a "gray area". What is to be considered as a script API ?

function playerDownStop() 
{ 
   // If we're moving down then nullify any downward movement. 
   if ( $player.getLinearVelocityY() > 0 ) 
      $player.setLinearVelocityY( 0 ); 
}

Is OK to be posted on a public forum or not ? Cause setLinearVelocityY() is API

#35 I think you would have to ask yourself, can the script snippet you posted work as is in TGE? While I don't have a TGE license to compare, I believe the get/setLinearVelocity functionality only exists within TGB so it can't be posted in a public area.

#36 The line is clear in my mind: Anything listed in the Reference.pdf is off limits to post publicly. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you need to abstract out the high-level tasks you are trying to accomplish and then you can document YOUR APIs. Behind the scenes in the compiled .dso files, are all the underlying mapping from YOUR high-level APIs to the low-level TGB APIs.