TGE Upgrades Possible?
by Nathan Harris · in Torque Game Engine · 04/30/2006 (5:09 pm) · 10 replies
First off, a warm Greetings! goes out to the community. Seems to be very strong, and filled with lots of information. At the moment, I am learning the in's and out's of the various aspects of game programming. I'm working with the Ogre rendering engine, along with a few other open source frameworks such as RakNet, OIS (which is now integrated into the current release of Ogre) and a few others. I am very happy with Ogre and the other open-source alternatives I've been using, although I've been interested in the Torque engine for over a year. I remember a long, long time ago hearing about the engine being sold for cheap and was excited even then- just didn't have that much programming prowess.
I'm currently downloading the demos for TGE, TSE, and the Lighting Kit. One thing that has me confused is... Well, I'll just list all my questions with the thing that confuses me first:
1.] Do I HAVE to have TSE to be able to use shaders, enhance terrain capabilities, etc., or can my team add these enhanced features themselves?
2.] I did a little research on Shannon's PhysX resource- I am using PhysX in my current project, and would love to continue using it... I'm assuming it's completely feasible to also create our own PhysX wrapper for TGE?
Actually, rather than ask multiple questions on the same subject, I'll ask one simple question that encompasses them all: Is it possible to completely overhaul TGE with things such as a shader system, enhanced terrain, 3rd party libraries such as PhysX, etc? One thing that I saw alot of when reviewing the public forums was a comment like so: "You really don't want to [insert overhaul goals here], as the Torque [insert function here] is so tightly wired to the rest of the engine that you would be pulling your hair out...".
So far this is the only thing that has de-motivated me from getting TGE. I like being able to change things, add functionality, etc without having to have weekly hospital visits because of nervous breakdowns O.o But, if a very well developed and skilled team of developers/designers were to get ahold of TGE, is anything truly possible?
Thanks in advance ^^
I'm currently downloading the demos for TGE, TSE, and the Lighting Kit. One thing that has me confused is... Well, I'll just list all my questions with the thing that confuses me first:
1.] Do I HAVE to have TSE to be able to use shaders, enhance terrain capabilities, etc., or can my team add these enhanced features themselves?
2.] I did a little research on Shannon's PhysX resource- I am using PhysX in my current project, and would love to continue using it... I'm assuming it's completely feasible to also create our own PhysX wrapper for TGE?
Actually, rather than ask multiple questions on the same subject, I'll ask one simple question that encompasses them all: Is it possible to completely overhaul TGE with things such as a shader system, enhanced terrain, 3rd party libraries such as PhysX, etc? One thing that I saw alot of when reviewing the public forums was a comment like so: "You really don't want to [insert overhaul goals here], as the Torque [insert function here] is so tightly wired to the rest of the engine that you would be pulling your hair out...".
So far this is the only thing that has de-motivated me from getting TGE. I like being able to change things, add functionality, etc without having to have weekly hospital visits because of nervous breakdowns O.o But, if a very well developed and skilled team of developers/designers were to get ahold of TGE, is anything truly possible?
Thanks in advance ^^
About the author
#2
You can do that using only TGE/TLK and publicly available resources. I'd say that's pretty damn good for an engine that's going on it's fifth year.
(Screenshot from Codename: Monster Island, www.reallyreallygoodthings.com)
04/30/2006 (6:17 pm)
You can do that using only TGE/TLK and publicly available resources. I'd say that's pretty damn good for an engine that's going on it's fifth year.
(Screenshot from Codename: Monster Island, www.reallyreallygoodthings.com)
#4
Alex/C2 - those are nice screenshots to be sure. But just to give an example of what open-source engines are capable of, here's a screenshot from a project using Ogre that I've had my eye on:
Now the main reasons I'm looking at TGE, is because of it's wonderful net code, and it's lovely terrain. Of course, I can take an extra few months and use Ogre, a paging landscape manager add-on, and RakNet and obtain even higher quality, be able to use shaders, and anything else I want for that matter- and be completely cross platform. On top of all that, I could sell my game with no hitches, no royalties, etc. So right now I am truly weighing the options- save a few months of development time (even though there is no timeline constraints) and pay upwards of $300, or spend the extra few months to have total control over every aspect of my game, for free... I have honestly seen what TGE is capable of, and so far a few projects look good, but for the most part I'm not jaw-droppingly impressed. For what used to be $100, you got state of the art. Now it seems you pay $100 for an awesome network api, and $150 to use shaders, and $50 to use proper lighting.
I'm not trying to be a drag, just stating my opinions and being completely honest- I am also trying to find the true basis of what I can do for money, and what I can do for free. I implemented (fully I might add) the PhysX engine into my Ogre project within half a day. I got water that matched the quality of the previous screenshots via shaders within hours. I can load .map and .bsp, along with many other map formats. Characters with self-shadowing. Stencil, shader, or texture shadows... The list goes on and on. Now, if I can do all this with TGE, then it is worth $100 to me. If not, then I'll take a few extra months to work out terrain and network code.
Again, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, I just want to make the best choice and be honestly informed. Here's another pretty screenshot of an Ogre project, before I part:
04/30/2006 (8:39 pm)
Thank you C2- that's what I wanted to hear. As far as using the TLK/TSE, I don't want to pay $50 to use what "enable" lighting methods that are actually behind the times. I'd rather program my own that uses current generation quality. I was not impressed by any screenshots, demos or videos. I don't want to pay $150 for an early adopter of the shader implementation, if I can program my own. To be honest, I wish it was simply TGE, as it used to be, with added features. The only other things I see being sold that seem to be worth money, are content packs. I feel TLK/TSE should be one with TGE. Thats probably my only gripe so far.Alex/C2 - those are nice screenshots to be sure. But just to give an example of what open-source engines are capable of, here's a screenshot from a project using Ogre that I've had my eye on:
Now the main reasons I'm looking at TGE, is because of it's wonderful net code, and it's lovely terrain. Of course, I can take an extra few months and use Ogre, a paging landscape manager add-on, and RakNet and obtain even higher quality, be able to use shaders, and anything else I want for that matter- and be completely cross platform. On top of all that, I could sell my game with no hitches, no royalties, etc. So right now I am truly weighing the options- save a few months of development time (even though there is no timeline constraints) and pay upwards of $300, or spend the extra few months to have total control over every aspect of my game, for free... I have honestly seen what TGE is capable of, and so far a few projects look good, but for the most part I'm not jaw-droppingly impressed. For what used to be $100, you got state of the art. Now it seems you pay $100 for an awesome network api, and $150 to use shaders, and $50 to use proper lighting.
I'm not trying to be a drag, just stating my opinions and being completely honest- I am also trying to find the true basis of what I can do for money, and what I can do for free. I implemented (fully I might add) the PhysX engine into my Ogre project within half a day. I got water that matched the quality of the previous screenshots via shaders within hours. I can load .map and .bsp, along with many other map formats. Characters with self-shadowing. Stencil, shader, or texture shadows... The list goes on and on. Now, if I can do all this with TGE, then it is worth $100 to me. If not, then I'll take a few extra months to work out terrain and network code.
Again, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, I just want to make the best choice and be honestly informed. Here's another pretty screenshot of an Ogre project, before I part:
#5
04/30/2006 (8:57 pm)
The Ogre screen shots are amazing, and it's an open source engine. I have given some thoughts about adding network and script to that engine. Maybe someday...
#6
(File sharing server was down for maintenance when I posted this)
Now, what I'm very curious about, is if it would be difficult to combine the Torque engine with Ogre... I'll ask at the Ogre forums if anyone has meddled with this, I looked around here shortly and the only thing I found was a "It would be a pain" type of response :P
04/30/2006 (9:26 pm)
I know there are a few projects that are implementing RakNet, which they rave about... It is pretty powerful from what I can tell. As far as scripting, there are already walkthroughs for implementing Ruby, Squirrel, LUA... The list goes on. As a matter of fact, in the add-ons CVS repository, there is a fully functional Lua add-on, and someone else is working on Ruby. I think there is a Squirrel script add-on too, not sure though. There are wrappers for ODE, Newton, Tokamak, and PhysX physics engines. Though, the only thing with Ogre is, it's not a full game engine- it's actually considered a rendering engine. It's just really easy to add the rest of a game framework to it. I'm not a good programmer at all, and I got something functioning within a day: Raining Cubes(File sharing server was down for maintenance when I posted this)
Now, what I'm very curious about, is if it would be difficult to combine the Torque engine with Ogre... I'll ask at the Ogre forums if anyone has meddled with this, I looked around here shortly and the only thing I found was a "It would be a pain" type of response :P
#7
04/30/2006 (9:36 pm)
Are you planning on making a commercial product? With all the talk of using open-source tools m'not sure... because there is TNL if you're mainly interested in the networking. You can use it for free up until you did have a commercial level product you wanted to sell, at which point the $995 for it's use shouldn't be a huge deal. TGE's terrain really isn't that great if you're looking for "modern", though TSE's Atlas terrain system is a huge upgrade in terms of quality and power.
#8
Which is why I am trying to find out as much about Torque as I can now. I have my eye on a couple of other commercial engines, some are looking as good or better than Torque. Well, actually one is looking golden- The Offset Engine. We have some great programmers, with combined experience in years across several languages, reaching over a century. That's another reason why open-source alternatives are even mentioned. We are merely interested in saving a little time and avoiding re-inventing the wheel.
Before I posted this reply, I read up on the Ogre and IndieGamer forums to try and see a comparison of both- against each other and a few other contenders. And so far, it seems Ogre (even though it is only a rendering engine, not a complete game framework) come out on top. There are enough 3rd party open source libraries to fill in the gaps that Ogre has, and Torque doesn't, such as a world/terrain/gui editing, integrated networking, etc. Alas, as I think of it, all these things are available in the Add-ons CVS repository. I read a nice breakdown of the Pros and Cons of the Torque engine, and as far as the Pros, the only thing that mattered to my team were the networking code (which RakNet apparently rivals) and the marketing/publishing channels available to a game that was made using Torque.
All in all, I think I have answered my own question concerning quality and ease of use across the board- I think Torque, with or without TLK or TSE is just too outdated and has too many ugly hitches. So for now, it will be free and open source alternatives. And once commercial options open up, a more expensive, more powerful engine may be in demand.
04/30/2006 (10:19 pm)
Actually, our first project is going to be freeware. A sort of "ice breaker" if you will. We have 1, possibly 2 projects lined up after the first one- 1 being a sequel to the first freeware game. This one will most likely be freeware also. The possible second project would be commercial. The only reason the second project is a "possible" is that we are currently communicating with Ageia about getting a license for the PhysX engine, along with some PPU cards for development. If that goes through, along with a few other prospective API license aquisitions, the second project will be a go... Which is why I am trying to find out as much about Torque as I can now. I have my eye on a couple of other commercial engines, some are looking as good or better than Torque. Well, actually one is looking golden- The Offset Engine. We have some great programmers, with combined experience in years across several languages, reaching over a century. That's another reason why open-source alternatives are even mentioned. We are merely interested in saving a little time and avoiding re-inventing the wheel.
Before I posted this reply, I read up on the Ogre and IndieGamer forums to try and see a comparison of both- against each other and a few other contenders. And so far, it seems Ogre (even though it is only a rendering engine, not a complete game framework) come out on top. There are enough 3rd party open source libraries to fill in the gaps that Ogre has, and Torque doesn't, such as a world/terrain/gui editing, integrated networking, etc. Alas, as I think of it, all these things are available in the Add-ons CVS repository. I read a nice breakdown of the Pros and Cons of the Torque engine, and as far as the Pros, the only thing that mattered to my team were the networking code (which RakNet apparently rivals) and the marketing/publishing channels available to a game that was made using Torque.
All in all, I think I have answered my own question concerning quality and ease of use across the board- I think Torque, with or without TLK or TSE is just too outdated and has too many ugly hitches. So for now, it will be free and open source alternatives. And once commercial options open up, a more expensive, more powerful engine may be in demand.
#9
04/30/2006 (10:47 pm)
Do you know what TNL is? Torque Network Library? It's Torque's networking code on it's own, GPL, and can be bought for indie and commercial use later.
#10
04/30/2006 (10:53 pm)
Yes, I was aware ^^. TNL is definetly still an option for our network API. 
Torque Owner Chris Byars
Ion Productions
2. Perfectly feasible.
3. Again, you sure could do it, anything is possible, especially with a skilled team.