Shallow questions
by Kenneth · in Torque Game Engine · 04/15/2006 (9:20 pm) · 7 replies
First off, I'm a hobbyist, not looking to make a million (though I'd probably take it if someone offered it). I also work in another field full time (video production). I have a few questions about T2D, or I guess it's TGB now (hence the "shallow" part of the title...get it..."shallow"...2d...Oh, never mind...
first question, since most of the docs are hidden in the dev area:
What's the largest "map" possible in TGB? For instance, If I wanted to play around with some kind of Zelda-ish design, wandering around a "large" map, not necessarily a side scroller, how big could the map be and how would that affect performance?
and, is there any support for vector art (illustrator), or does everything have to be bitmap?
Just about all the hype mentions "side scrollers", what about top scrollers (you know the screen scrolls top to bottom instead)?
And on a more practicle side, how necessary is it to lean C++? Can most things be handled with the Torquescript, or is C++ pretty much required to do much outside of what's "built in"? It's not that I have an aversion to C++ but I do have a life beyond this computer (though it doesn't feel like it sometimes). I gues what this question boils down to is what am I biting off if I just want to have some fun, start out with some simple games for my 3 and 6 year olds, and maybe chase a few dreams after I get the tools figured out?
One other quick question, does TGB have anything (tool) to aid in the developmnet of AI, beyond basic object reactions and the like, for instance, if I came up with a turn based game, would the AI have to be totaly programmed in C++, or is there a tool to aid with that?
Thanks in advance for your replies, and please ignore the spelling and any gross gramatical errors, my brain is fried from an impending project deadline I'm facing and this is how I'm blowing off steam...strange, huh?
And, oh, yeah, I'm thinking of doing a huge MMORPG with some RTS elements when I have a few hourse to work on it, any ideas...just kidding...
first question, since most of the docs are hidden in the dev area:
What's the largest "map" possible in TGB? For instance, If I wanted to play around with some kind of Zelda-ish design, wandering around a "large" map, not necessarily a side scroller, how big could the map be and how would that affect performance?
and, is there any support for vector art (illustrator), or does everything have to be bitmap?
Just about all the hype mentions "side scrollers", what about top scrollers (you know the screen scrolls top to bottom instead)?
And on a more practicle side, how necessary is it to lean C++? Can most things be handled with the Torquescript, or is C++ pretty much required to do much outside of what's "built in"? It's not that I have an aversion to C++ but I do have a life beyond this computer (though it doesn't feel like it sometimes). I gues what this question boils down to is what am I biting off if I just want to have some fun, start out with some simple games for my 3 and 6 year olds, and maybe chase a few dreams after I get the tools figured out?
One other quick question, does TGB have anything (tool) to aid in the developmnet of AI, beyond basic object reactions and the like, for instance, if I came up with a turn based game, would the AI have to be totaly programmed in C++, or is there a tool to aid with that?
Thanks in advance for your replies, and please ignore the spelling and any gross gramatical errors, my brain is fried from an impending project deadline I'm facing and this is how I'm blowing off steam...strange, huh?
And, oh, yeah, I'm thinking of doing a huge MMORPG with some RTS elements when I have a few hourse to work on it, any ideas...just kidding...
#2
I'm sorry that you feel like you need to apoligize for being excited to begin. No one is here who didn't feel the same way as you at the start. Honestly, I don't know what anyone is still doing here that doesn't still feel that way. If you can't be a dreamer about making games... I think you need to find something else to do with your time.
Don't worry, just ignore those people. They are just going too long without non-solo sex. I wish I were kidding. :P
Anyway, about your TGB questions.
1) You can in fact make an entire 2D game with TGB using only TorqueScript. I believe that most of the games that have been made with T2D didn't do much c++ coding at all. And there have been more than you see on this site. They are commercial licenses that don't happen to sell from this site.
2) Yes, you can use 3D meshes in TGB! TGB is a mod of the Torque Game Engine.
3) AI can be done using Torque Script. It really depends on how complex it is going to be and how fast it needs to be calculated. If you get advanced enough with AI that you need C++. Don't worry, you won't have any trouble learning your way around C++. ;)
4) As for up/down scrollers instead of side scrollers. T2D is completely open to whatever you can think up. Instead of moving to the side... move up and down. No problem at all.
If I were you I would go ahead and spend a day or two going thru the getting started tutorial. You will learn alot about what you can do just from that. Once you see how you can do the side scrolling thing for the tutorial... you'll be able to see how you can do the up/down.
Welcome to the fun. I know that some around here think it's the suck. But that's just because they suck. Most of us are here for the love of it just like you. 99% of us.
04/16/2006 (1:29 am)
@KennethI'm sorry that you feel like you need to apoligize for being excited to begin. No one is here who didn't feel the same way as you at the start. Honestly, I don't know what anyone is still doing here that doesn't still feel that way. If you can't be a dreamer about making games... I think you need to find something else to do with your time.
Don't worry, just ignore those people. They are just going too long without non-solo sex. I wish I were kidding. :P
Anyway, about your TGB questions.
1) You can in fact make an entire 2D game with TGB using only TorqueScript. I believe that most of the games that have been made with T2D didn't do much c++ coding at all. And there have been more than you see on this site. They are commercial licenses that don't happen to sell from this site.
2) Yes, you can use 3D meshes in TGB! TGB is a mod of the Torque Game Engine.
3) AI can be done using Torque Script. It really depends on how complex it is going to be and how fast it needs to be calculated. If you get advanced enough with AI that you need C++. Don't worry, you won't have any trouble learning your way around C++. ;)
4) As for up/down scrollers instead of side scrollers. T2D is completely open to whatever you can think up. Instead of moving to the side... move up and down. No problem at all.
If I were you I would go ahead and spend a day or two going thru the getting started tutorial. You will learn alot about what you can do just from that. Once you see how you can do the side scrolling thing for the tutorial... you'll be able to see how you can do the up/down.
Welcome to the fun. I know that some around here think it's the suck. But that's just because they suck. Most of us are here for the love of it just like you. 99% of us.
#3
thanks for the reply. Your answers are helpful.
I just want to add a thought here in the hopes the Garagegames guys will see it. I've been watching t2d develop for months now, and lurked here at garagegames and other dev sites trying to keep up with what was happening and trying to get a feel if this tool would work for me. I've been very impressed with Melv and the way he's feilded questions and responded to the nay sayers.
there's one complaint that that keeps coming up that I personally believe is probably unfounded, at least these days it is, and that is the complaint that there's little documentation for the Torque engines. My experience on this site is that the information is there, it's just all hidden in areas only availbable for those who have purchased a license. This combined with the fact that no demo is available of the actual tools gives a very bad vibe to some, including to a lesser degree me.
Please take this as criticism meant to be constructive - I love what you guys stand for - but the fact that all that can be seen from the "outside" is the promotional hype would make anyone nervous about laying down their $100 bucks. No that's not much when taken in perspective, but who wants to waist a $100 bucks, after all that's two top shelf games if nothing else. And for many of the game engines out there the $100 bucks would be waisted. Few of them actually ever live up to the hype and most have proven to have such an extreem learning curve that the chances of getting into it without already having a background in programing are almost nill. (Not that I'm saying this about TGB, I'm saying it about many of the others - but that is what people judge you by. The others have made great claims too, and failed to live up to them. Without giving more practicle info the tendancy for most, I think, is to assume that TGB is just a polished up version similar to what else is out there, which I hope isn't true.)
I understand that the code for the engine is what's valuable and you can't let that slip out without a license, otherwise someone could theoretically come along and glean the majority of the code from posts and such and reconstruct all your hard work and have to pay you nothing for it - as someone who deals with copyright and copyright enfringement in the video market I understand this well, but what would be the harm of releasing some of the training materials that deal more exclusively with the tools and with torqescript and doesn't contain much, if any of the actual C++ code of the game engine. I'm not a programmer, but I'm pretty sure that learning torquescript without haveing the torque engine wouldn't allow me to enfringe on anybody's rights, it would allow me however to get a clearer view of what I was getting into before I laid my money down.
Anyone who's spent any time around the gaming commuity knows hype is totally bogus, and it doesn't matter what the publisher says, don't believe it till you've seen it. How many of us have gotten excited over a game as it was described, only to be totally dissapointed once we got our hands on it. These days I believe this is the main reason so many playable demos are put out, so you can see exactly what you would be buying.
I truely think you have a great platform here with TGB that is truely accessable to beginners, but expandable to fit even the pro (with what I've been able to glean, anyway) and that's something the community ought to go nuts over. If you'd just release a little more of the tech info and actual examples of what's involved I think you'd hear most of the nay sayers go away.
For example, Anton gave the the (probably) excellent advice to work through the first tutorial and it would alieve most of my worries - the problem is I can't do that without first giving my credit card. (as fas as I've been able to find, anyway. If I've missed an available tutorial that can bee seen by those on the "outside" please let me know.) Can you see how that makes some skepticle - "give me your money, then I'll show you the product..."
Again, I'm not trying to flame, just wanting to give a perspective showing that your current marketing may not be allowing you products to live up to their potential. I hope you guys at Garagegames keep up the good work, no one likes an indie more than me, regardless of the field.
Anyway, my 2 cents - and don't demand a refund, I've already spent it...
04/16/2006 (10:31 am)
Anton, thanks for the reply. Your answers are helpful.
I just want to add a thought here in the hopes the Garagegames guys will see it. I've been watching t2d develop for months now, and lurked here at garagegames and other dev sites trying to keep up with what was happening and trying to get a feel if this tool would work for me. I've been very impressed with Melv and the way he's feilded questions and responded to the nay sayers.
there's one complaint that that keeps coming up that I personally believe is probably unfounded, at least these days it is, and that is the complaint that there's little documentation for the Torque engines. My experience on this site is that the information is there, it's just all hidden in areas only availbable for those who have purchased a license. This combined with the fact that no demo is available of the actual tools gives a very bad vibe to some, including to a lesser degree me.
Please take this as criticism meant to be constructive - I love what you guys stand for - but the fact that all that can be seen from the "outside" is the promotional hype would make anyone nervous about laying down their $100 bucks. No that's not much when taken in perspective, but who wants to waist a $100 bucks, after all that's two top shelf games if nothing else. And for many of the game engines out there the $100 bucks would be waisted. Few of them actually ever live up to the hype and most have proven to have such an extreem learning curve that the chances of getting into it without already having a background in programing are almost nill. (Not that I'm saying this about TGB, I'm saying it about many of the others - but that is what people judge you by. The others have made great claims too, and failed to live up to them. Without giving more practicle info the tendancy for most, I think, is to assume that TGB is just a polished up version similar to what else is out there, which I hope isn't true.)
I understand that the code for the engine is what's valuable and you can't let that slip out without a license, otherwise someone could theoretically come along and glean the majority of the code from posts and such and reconstruct all your hard work and have to pay you nothing for it - as someone who deals with copyright and copyright enfringement in the video market I understand this well, but what would be the harm of releasing some of the training materials that deal more exclusively with the tools and with torqescript and doesn't contain much, if any of the actual C++ code of the game engine. I'm not a programmer, but I'm pretty sure that learning torquescript without haveing the torque engine wouldn't allow me to enfringe on anybody's rights, it would allow me however to get a clearer view of what I was getting into before I laid my money down.
Anyone who's spent any time around the gaming commuity knows hype is totally bogus, and it doesn't matter what the publisher says, don't believe it till you've seen it. How many of us have gotten excited over a game as it was described, only to be totally dissapointed once we got our hands on it. These days I believe this is the main reason so many playable demos are put out, so you can see exactly what you would be buying.
I truely think you have a great platform here with TGB that is truely accessable to beginners, but expandable to fit even the pro (with what I've been able to glean, anyway) and that's something the community ought to go nuts over. If you'd just release a little more of the tech info and actual examples of what's involved I think you'd hear most of the nay sayers go away.
For example, Anton gave the the (probably) excellent advice to work through the first tutorial and it would alieve most of my worries - the problem is I can't do that without first giving my credit card. (as fas as I've been able to find, anyway. If I've missed an available tutorial that can bee seen by those on the "outside" please let me know.) Can you see how that makes some skepticle - "give me your money, then I'll show you the product..."
Again, I'm not trying to flame, just wanting to give a perspective showing that your current marketing may not be allowing you products to live up to their potential. I hope you guys at Garagegames keep up the good work, no one likes an indie more than me, regardless of the field.
Anyway, my 2 cents - and don't demand a refund, I've already spent it...
#4
in TGB is it possible to have create a game, where the player character can roam around a "map" both horizontally and vertically - think the original zelda here.
Thanks
04/17/2006 (11:50 am)
Ok, one other question,hope I'm not being to redundant.in TGB is it possible to have create a game, where the player character can roam around a "map" both horizontally and vertically - think the original zelda here.
Thanks
#5
I know this is an old post, but I hate open-ended posts... so I'll answer it :-).
The answer is yes. TGB Is basically a stripped down (or enhanced in someplace) version of TGE. As a result it can handle 3d models as well as 2d models. However for the most part the camera is at a fixed perspective. This makes it "2D". Since the perspective is fixed sprites become a lot easier to work with. But the sprites they use are not actually copied and pasted to the screen (BLTed) the way they usually are in a 2D engine, they are instead 2 poly surface. This surface's normal is parallel with the normal of the camera, which means they always face the screen, hence their spritish appearance.
TGB is fully featured and can basically accomplish anything you want so long as you don't want a real 3d perspective. A game like Zelda would be very easy to do with TGB, and even easier with Sickhead Game's new Adventure pack for $39.95 (http://www.garagegames.com/products/90). (It also is supposed to have some AI tools I think).
As for the hype of TGB, TGE, and GG I totally agree. Tons of people using the engine that sing their praise would also be the first to admit that if you're not dedicated then nothing will come of it. The engine gives you a lot. It really does give you a LOT! Especially if you have ever considered creating your own game engine. With that said if you don't have the drive, and you don't use the tools that you are given, then it means nothing. Torque is not the beginner's guide to make great games. However it does start you with a certain advantage.
09/11/2006 (1:57 pm)
Kenneth,I know this is an old post, but I hate open-ended posts... so I'll answer it :-).
The answer is yes. TGB Is basically a stripped down (or enhanced in someplace) version of TGE. As a result it can handle 3d models as well as 2d models. However for the most part the camera is at a fixed perspective. This makes it "2D". Since the perspective is fixed sprites become a lot easier to work with. But the sprites they use are not actually copied and pasted to the screen (BLTed) the way they usually are in a 2D engine, they are instead 2 poly surface. This surface's normal is parallel with the normal of the camera, which means they always face the screen, hence their spritish appearance.
TGB is fully featured and can basically accomplish anything you want so long as you don't want a real 3d perspective. A game like Zelda would be very easy to do with TGB, and even easier with Sickhead Game's new Adventure pack for $39.95 (http://www.garagegames.com/products/90). (It also is supposed to have some AI tools I think).
As for the hype of TGB, TGE, and GG I totally agree. Tons of people using the engine that sing their praise would also be the first to admit that if you're not dedicated then nothing will come of it. The engine gives you a lot. It really does give you a LOT! Especially if you have ever considered creating your own game engine. With that said if you don't have the drive, and you don't use the tools that you are given, then it means nothing. Torque is not the beginner's guide to make great games. However it does start you with a certain advantage.
#6
Thanks for the reply. I had looked at the Adventure pack, and it looks awsome. I think, between the two (TGB pro & the Adventure pack), I might just take a stab at this. Now I just need to think of some way to come up with the money.
Iso tiles seemed to be the biggest hurdle to what I wanted to do, but he adventure pack and recent updates seems to have taken care of that obsticle with the layering feature.
Thanks again, I hate open posts too, especially when they are mine.
09/12/2006 (12:02 pm)
Christopher,Thanks for the reply. I had looked at the Adventure pack, and it looks awsome. I think, between the two (TGB pro & the Adventure pack), I might just take a stab at this. Now I just need to think of some way to come up with the money.
Iso tiles seemed to be the biggest hurdle to what I wanted to do, but he adventure pack and recent updates seems to have taken care of that obsticle with the layering feature.
Thanks again, I hate open posts too, especially when they are mine.
#7
09/12/2006 (3:13 pm)
Well great to hear that you're thinking about giving it a shot. When I saw the Adventure Pack yesterday I had to buy it. I guess I'm a little compulsive at times, but show me a programmer who isn't. I did notice something about the adventure pack that I didn't post before however. Namely they do not use a 3d model for their main character, it seems everything is 2d. It is possible (as I mentioned before) but it doesn't seem to be built into the adventure pack. 
Kenneth
One more before I turn off this stupid computer and go to bed:
I read in another post that TGB can actually accept 3d models from, like say Maya. Can it use animation s too? I know TGB is sprite based, so I'm a little confused on how the 3D models and animations woul work in the engine. I actually do some Maya, so that sounds very good to me if it's true. Give me a pen and paper and I'll draw a stick figure, give me maya and I'll actually make something recognizable.