The Future of MMO and CRPGs: Four Dimensional Gaming
by Habib Karpal · in General Discussion · 03/23/2002 (12:50 pm) · 57 replies
Note: this is more like an article than a forum post, before you start reading.
Introduction
Astrophysics has always been a subject that interested me since the first time I saw an episode of Star Trek (which, by the way, I do not watch anymore). Inertial dampers, faster-than-light travel and antimatter have constantly been such subjects that make people wonder what the future of a civilization can--and perhaps will--be.
Something even more interesting than those subjects is the idea of time and time travel. Time is a thing that affects us every day--how we act, where want to go and things we want to do are all affected by time. It is eternal and unescapable, for nothing can not exist in a world without time.
What about games? Today, most modern games are often three dimensional--that is to say, they have the characteristics of the three spacial dimensions: length, height and depth. However, despite the apparent realism of these games, the universe in which we live is in fact, not three dimensional, but rather four dimensional. Why? First, I must explain the first three dimensions with which most people are familiar.
Spacial Dimensions
The first dimension is as simple as it gets. It is simply lines and nothing more. In fact, if you wanted to place an object in some sort of horribly boring 1D game, it would simply be a point on a line. Luckily, there are no 1D games.
Plots: X (length)
The second dimension is familiar with everyone, including elementary schoolers. Many games are 2D, as these games have properties of width and height and can be as entertaining as 3D games in many cases. Two dimensional objects are completely flat, like drawings on paper.
Plots: X (length), Y (height)
Finally, the third dimension is the most popular environment for modern games. It allows for the most visual realism, and is very close to the dimension in which we live (which I will explain later--those of you who know what I am building up to can skip this section). The third dimension is the second dimension with depth, so that no object is flat unless its depth is equal to precisely zero (even atoms have more depth than zero, and essentially there are no objects whose depth is zero--even the pixels on your computer screen have the depth of the light wave projecting them on to the monitor).
Plots: X (length), Y (height), Z (depth)
Our Dimension
Contrary to popular belief, we do not live in the third dimension. However, it is true that we exist in three dimensions of space, which were described above. This may seem a little on the confusing side, but once I explain where we actually live, it will be much clearer.
I did mention time at the beginning of this article for a reason. It may or may not have occured to you by now why I did so--for in fact, we are living in the fourth dimension, and the fourth dimension is time itself. So in short, we live in three dimensions of space and one of time.
Because we live in only one dimension in time, we can only go in one direction in it--forward. To compare, an object in one spacial dimension can only go in one direction--forward. It is as simple as that, and that is also why it is not possible to travel in time. For if we lived in two dimensions of time, you could time-travel simply by doing it. How you would do so is practically impossible to comprehend, since we ourselves only exist in four dimensions.
Now, what does all this have to do with gaming? Yes, now for the interesting part.
The Fourth Dimension and Gaming
All games thus far have been three dimensional. Time is simply emulated by using scripts and invisible objects the player triggers when they pass a certain point or do a certain thing. No game has truly used a time-space continuum. While that may seem understandable, it is actually remarkably simple to implement the fourth dimension into a game, simply because we live in and understand it.
Let's say you're making the first game to use 4D techniques. Why would you want to do it, and how would you do it?
Why Would I Want to Use 4D Gaming, and How Would I Do It?
The prospect of 4D games can bring a multitude of possibilities never before seen in the video and PC gaming industry. The complexity of a world could skyrocket beyond unimaginable means and still be easily controlled by the development team.
Let's say Joe Games is developing an MMORPG called Timeless. We need not get into the details of it; simply know that it is an MMORPG. The Joe Games developers put in all their objects into the world differently than would be expected. Instead of plotting the usual 1,2,3 into the game editor, they punch in 1,2,3,4! The fourth number is--you guessed it-- the object's position in the game's time-space continuum. Just as a three dimensional object does not exist in a place where it is not plotted, a four dimensional object does not exist where it is not plotted. Now, this plotted object that Joe Games put in would only last for as long as the chosen value of time was (in this case, minutes). So, four minutes into the the game, this object appears for one minute and then disappears. But how to keep it there permenantly? Simply bend conventional mathematics a bit and do this:
1,2,3,4-10
Now, the object appears four minutes into the game and lasts for six. But, what if you wanted an object to stay there for the whole game? Then, simply do this:
1,2,3,infinite
And make "infinite" a variable in your code making the object unaffected by time. How would you make your game recognize time? Simply program a clock application to output to one number. That's it. So, you'd simply code up a clock that shows time's value in one number--for instance, if the clock counts hours, then the time-space continuum in the game changes by the hour.
Just imagine what kinds of games could be built using 4D gaming--an MMORPG could literally be everchanging, with the developers constantly uploading new events into the server network's timestream, making every day a different tale. Games would become as unpredictable as life itself. Finally, there would be no more need for simple event-triggering to emulate time--for you would now have complete control of your very own time-space continuum. And a 4D gaming environment would be easier on computer resources than current event-triggering emulation--for the computer would only be running one command, as opposed to multiple ones.
It's my belief that some day 4D gaming will be a reality, and that it will change the RPG businness forever--both because of its remarkable simplicity, and unlimited range of possibilities.
-Steve Schmith
Introduction
Astrophysics has always been a subject that interested me since the first time I saw an episode of Star Trek (which, by the way, I do not watch anymore). Inertial dampers, faster-than-light travel and antimatter have constantly been such subjects that make people wonder what the future of a civilization can--and perhaps will--be.
Something even more interesting than those subjects is the idea of time and time travel. Time is a thing that affects us every day--how we act, where want to go and things we want to do are all affected by time. It is eternal and unescapable, for nothing can not exist in a world without time.
What about games? Today, most modern games are often three dimensional--that is to say, they have the characteristics of the three spacial dimensions: length, height and depth. However, despite the apparent realism of these games, the universe in which we live is in fact, not three dimensional, but rather four dimensional. Why? First, I must explain the first three dimensions with which most people are familiar.
Spacial Dimensions
The first dimension is as simple as it gets. It is simply lines and nothing more. In fact, if you wanted to place an object in some sort of horribly boring 1D game, it would simply be a point on a line. Luckily, there are no 1D games.
Plots: X (length)
The second dimension is familiar with everyone, including elementary schoolers. Many games are 2D, as these games have properties of width and height and can be as entertaining as 3D games in many cases. Two dimensional objects are completely flat, like drawings on paper.
Plots: X (length), Y (height)
Finally, the third dimension is the most popular environment for modern games. It allows for the most visual realism, and is very close to the dimension in which we live (which I will explain later--those of you who know what I am building up to can skip this section). The third dimension is the second dimension with depth, so that no object is flat unless its depth is equal to precisely zero (even atoms have more depth than zero, and essentially there are no objects whose depth is zero--even the pixels on your computer screen have the depth of the light wave projecting them on to the monitor).
Plots: X (length), Y (height), Z (depth)
Our Dimension
Contrary to popular belief, we do not live in the third dimension. However, it is true that we exist in three dimensions of space, which were described above. This may seem a little on the confusing side, but once I explain where we actually live, it will be much clearer.
I did mention time at the beginning of this article for a reason. It may or may not have occured to you by now why I did so--for in fact, we are living in the fourth dimension, and the fourth dimension is time itself. So in short, we live in three dimensions of space and one of time.
Because we live in only one dimension in time, we can only go in one direction in it--forward. To compare, an object in one spacial dimension can only go in one direction--forward. It is as simple as that, and that is also why it is not possible to travel in time. For if we lived in two dimensions of time, you could time-travel simply by doing it. How you would do so is practically impossible to comprehend, since we ourselves only exist in four dimensions.
Now, what does all this have to do with gaming? Yes, now for the interesting part.
The Fourth Dimension and Gaming
All games thus far have been three dimensional. Time is simply emulated by using scripts and invisible objects the player triggers when they pass a certain point or do a certain thing. No game has truly used a time-space continuum. While that may seem understandable, it is actually remarkably simple to implement the fourth dimension into a game, simply because we live in and understand it.
Let's say you're making the first game to use 4D techniques. Why would you want to do it, and how would you do it?
Why Would I Want to Use 4D Gaming, and How Would I Do It?
The prospect of 4D games can bring a multitude of possibilities never before seen in the video and PC gaming industry. The complexity of a world could skyrocket beyond unimaginable means and still be easily controlled by the development team.
Let's say Joe Games is developing an MMORPG called Timeless. We need not get into the details of it; simply know that it is an MMORPG. The Joe Games developers put in all their objects into the world differently than would be expected. Instead of plotting the usual 1,2,3 into the game editor, they punch in 1,2,3,4! The fourth number is--you guessed it-- the object's position in the game's time-space continuum. Just as a three dimensional object does not exist in a place where it is not plotted, a four dimensional object does not exist where it is not plotted. Now, this plotted object that Joe Games put in would only last for as long as the chosen value of time was (in this case, minutes). So, four minutes into the the game, this object appears for one minute and then disappears. But how to keep it there permenantly? Simply bend conventional mathematics a bit and do this:
1,2,3,4-10
Now, the object appears four minutes into the game and lasts for six. But, what if you wanted an object to stay there for the whole game? Then, simply do this:
1,2,3,infinite
And make "infinite" a variable in your code making the object unaffected by time. How would you make your game recognize time? Simply program a clock application to output to one number. That's it. So, you'd simply code up a clock that shows time's value in one number--for instance, if the clock counts hours, then the time-space continuum in the game changes by the hour.
Just imagine what kinds of games could be built using 4D gaming--an MMORPG could literally be everchanging, with the developers constantly uploading new events into the server network's timestream, making every day a different tale. Games would become as unpredictable as life itself. Finally, there would be no more need for simple event-triggering to emulate time--for you would now have complete control of your very own time-space continuum. And a 4D gaming environment would be easier on computer resources than current event-triggering emulation--for the computer would only be running one command, as opposed to multiple ones.
It's my belief that some day 4D gaming will be a reality, and that it will change the RPG businness forever--both because of its remarkable simplicity, and unlimited range of possibilities.
-Steve Schmith
#42
A game that was not player-centric would be extremely hard to do in the conventional way, and this could open new doors for completely active and ever-evovling worlds.
I'll make a picture of a 4D coordinate plane as soon as I can and put it up. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to understand (some of you already know what it looks like anyway). I also have a nice idea for implementing it in a program.
Edit: Just some jibberish I took out.
03/25/2002 (5:43 pm)
Evan and noh: You guys just said exactly what I've been wanting to say! :) We "physics people" can just never make our ideas in understandable English! Thanks for finally saying what I meant to say in the first place.A game that was not player-centric would be extremely hard to do in the conventional way, and this could open new doors for completely active and ever-evovling worlds.
I'll make a picture of a 4D coordinate plane as soon as I can and put it up. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to understand (some of you already know what it looks like anyway). I also have a nice idea for implementing it in a program.
Edit: Just some jibberish I took out.
#43
Majik will be completely free when it is published. And I hope the developement team will get a new server to run the testgame more frequently. You can check the task management at http://www.majik3d.org/lounge/tasks.html
Jobbin
03/26/2002 (5:23 am)
When you talked about this fourth dimension, a game came up. It's called Majik. You can find the developement of this game at http://www.majik3d.org . The idea of the game is to create a world that would persist every effect you made on it. The game is still in developement as Realm Worlds is, but if you take time to examine the project you will find its intrests. Majik will be completely free when it is published. And I hope the developement team will get a new server to run the testgame more frequently. You can check the task management at http://www.majik3d.org/lounge/tasks.html
Jobbin
#44
What we mean is basically that towns would burn down, cities would go through several major changes (new buildings and stuff), etc. even if the player just stood there for a month straight. The whole world would be changing even in the subltest of ways, without player intervention. Even AI characters would be doing their own little things, and AI could affect the world just as much as the player.
That link is broken too...
03/26/2002 (10:08 am)
The idea of the 4D game is that it persists and changes without you affecting it. There's a big difference.What we mean is basically that towns would burn down, cities would go through several major changes (new buildings and stuff), etc. even if the player just stood there for a month straight. The whole world would be changing even in the subltest of ways, without player intervention. Even AI characters would be doing their own little things, and AI could affect the world just as much as the player.
That link is broken too...
#45
Evan: Your ideas are interesting, and I agree that that would be very cool. But that isnt 4d. That is just a normal game (ie, 3d with linear, steadily progressing time) that doesnt stop when you leave. It would still be cool. :)
03/26/2002 (2:54 pm)
btw, I dont like the sims. I think it is the stupidest game ever. :) And yes, I meant stupidest. :)Evan: Your ideas are interesting, and I agree that that would be very cool. But that isnt 4d. That is just a normal game (ie, 3d with linear, steadily progressing time) that doesnt stop when you leave. It would still be cool. :)
#46
BTW... have you ever played SimEarth?
Other then the fact that you can affect the game world directly and indirectly it seems to meet your criteria for being considered a 4D game.
Having a game of Civilisation run with only computer players would fit your description of a 4D game also.
Maybe it's me but the descriptions you're using to explain this aren't using time as a dimension in the game they are using the effects of time as a dimension.
03/26/2002 (5:49 pm)
So your 4D game is an environmental simulation with AI Life that the player doesn't affect at all?BTW... have you ever played SimEarth?
Other then the fact that you can affect the game world directly and indirectly it seems to meet your criteria for being considered a 4D game.
Having a game of Civilisation run with only computer players would fit your description of a 4D game also.
Maybe it's me but the descriptions you're using to explain this aren't using time as a dimension in the game they are using the effects of time as a dimension.
#47
03/27/2002 (11:22 am)
Who let Alex Chiu in here?
#48
Think of it this way: a real 4D game would be as dynamic, complex and non-linear as your own life. That's why it's such an "out there" idea that probably won't be in games for some time.
Here's a comparison of non-linear 3D games and 4D games:
3D non-linear
Event A occurs, triggering Event B, which affects the player and AI Group Alpha.
4D
Event A occurs at time 1235, Events B, C and D continue developing from their respective origins at times 1032, 1178 and 1201. Because of Event A, Event E begins, thusly affecting AI Groups Alpha, Beta and Cappa. The player encounters AI Group Cappa and is thereby indirectly affected by Event E, therefore even more indirectly affected by Event A. Events B, C and D have not affected the player but continue to be developed by their respective catalysts (not listed).
03/28/2002 (4:33 pm)
No, you guys aren't getting the idea. The player can affect the world, it's just that he's not the only thing affecting the world. At the same time, all the AI are doing their own thing, events are unpredictable and all the stuff I said before. Games like Civilization and Alpha Centauri are similar to this, but they are not the same. Each of the nations does do its own thing, but they don't actually run on time lines. Everything is preset; all the sciences you can discover have been laid out for you as well as technologies. In a truly 4D game, you wouldn't have a clue when any major breakthrough was coming, you wouldn't know what kinds of sciences were out there, etc. It's hard to grasp, but some of you have done it, like Evan. The reason it's hard to grasp is that there are no 4D games.Think of it this way: a real 4D game would be as dynamic, complex and non-linear as your own life. That's why it's such an "out there" idea that probably won't be in games for some time.
Here's a comparison of non-linear 3D games and 4D games:
3D non-linear
Event A occurs, triggering Event B, which affects the player and AI Group Alpha.
4D
Event A occurs at time 1235, Events B, C and D continue developing from their respective origins at times 1032, 1178 and 1201. Because of Event A, Event E begins, thusly affecting AI Groups Alpha, Beta and Cappa. The player encounters AI Group Cappa and is thereby indirectly affected by Event E, therefore even more indirectly affected by Event A. Events B, C and D have not affected the player but continue to be developed by their respective catalysts (not listed).
#49
Computers can not make things up, so there is always a plan. Random number generators are not truly random.
03/28/2002 (5:40 pm)
It all has too be pre-programmed, so it can not work like you want, until we create a working posotronic mainframe.Computers can not make things up, so there is always a plan. Random number generators are not truly random.
#50
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents even though I know no one will ever read this.
Time is a dimension as much as space is. However, our concept of time is a human construct. Granted, we - the human race - don't fully understand time yet, however, we understand it enough to say it's not what we think it is.
As a little (big) nugget-
Time does not actually exist as we know it, though it is real. See, the Universe is made up of energy, and this energy has several forms, all of which are just particles. These particles have different symmetries but the symmetries are all quantized, meaning they can only be specific symmetries, not fractions thereof. Matter, which is what we are made of, has a spin symmetry of 1/2, meaning - in human terms - it must take 2 full spins to get back to where you started. Imagine a penny that you had to spin 720 degrees before Abe was facing the direction he started at. Wierd, huh? But this is what matter is - what we are - and this also explains the difference between positive and negative charge.
However, light has a symmetry of one, meaning it only has to be spun once to get to the beginning, and gravity a symmetry of two, which means only a half turn to start over. These are really the only kinds of particles that affect our known universe - light, matter, and gravity. Even though the rest of the universe is still there, it doesn't affect us very much. The symmetries are too different to interact.
Now, things with a symmetry of less than 1, matter in particular, move slower than the speed of light. Why? who knows. It's just the way it works. It probably has something to do with the amount of energy it takes to move particles as massive as matter at the speed of light. The universe always goes through the path of lowest energy, and so time was invented.
The Speed of Light is the worst name that could have been chosen because it doesn't tell the whole story. See, the speed of light is the quantized energy level at which the universe exists. When a particle moves slower than the speed of light, like matter does, than the resulting observation of time makes up for it so it can remain quantized.
Think of the equation:
t + S = c
Time is t, S is Speed of particle, c is the speed of light, and every particle in the universe is bound to this equation. When S = c, time = 0, so time doesn't exist when a particle moves at the speed of light. However, when S < c, then time must be greater than zero, and so time seems to exist once S drops below c. I know, a lot of math, but it's the truth about our universe. See, this is the equation that explain the space-time continuum and why time doesn't always exist.
Time is really what happens when two particles moving slower than light 'see' each other. We 'see' the clock, and it 'sees' us. Thus, relativity. It's ironic the only way we can see it is through the communication of something, light, that does move at the speed of light.
Anyways, the space-time continuum is very interesting because it's really got to do with the universal theory of conservation of energy, which we all do understand, but I digress.
So what is the result of all this? Well, things moving slower than the speed of light can observe time to make up for it. However, since matter only makes up 5% of the universe, time doesn't exist for the majority of the universe. In fact, neither does our concept of space as we know it. See, at the speed of light, where there is no time, you are everywhere at the same time, but only one place at a time. (bad word, time, but whatever. The human languages don't have words to metaphorize these concepts.) So time doesn't always exist. All that really exists is energy. Or should I say the relative existence of energy.
We just happen the be part of the beautifully slow dance between the positive and negative charges of particles called matter.
Life is beautiful because it's chaotic and predictable at the same time.
Hope that struck a note, but don't let it seep too deep, because it's too sobering unless you are ready to rework your entire view of yourself, life, and the universe.
07/26/2002 (11:32 am)
Hey guys,Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents even though I know no one will ever read this.
Time is a dimension as much as space is. However, our concept of time is a human construct. Granted, we - the human race - don't fully understand time yet, however, we understand it enough to say it's not what we think it is.
As a little (big) nugget-
Time does not actually exist as we know it, though it is real. See, the Universe is made up of energy, and this energy has several forms, all of which are just particles. These particles have different symmetries but the symmetries are all quantized, meaning they can only be specific symmetries, not fractions thereof. Matter, which is what we are made of, has a spin symmetry of 1/2, meaning - in human terms - it must take 2 full spins to get back to where you started. Imagine a penny that you had to spin 720 degrees before Abe was facing the direction he started at. Wierd, huh? But this is what matter is - what we are - and this also explains the difference between positive and negative charge.
However, light has a symmetry of one, meaning it only has to be spun once to get to the beginning, and gravity a symmetry of two, which means only a half turn to start over. These are really the only kinds of particles that affect our known universe - light, matter, and gravity. Even though the rest of the universe is still there, it doesn't affect us very much. The symmetries are too different to interact.
Now, things with a symmetry of less than 1, matter in particular, move slower than the speed of light. Why? who knows. It's just the way it works. It probably has something to do with the amount of energy it takes to move particles as massive as matter at the speed of light. The universe always goes through the path of lowest energy, and so time was invented.
The Speed of Light is the worst name that could have been chosen because it doesn't tell the whole story. See, the speed of light is the quantized energy level at which the universe exists. When a particle moves slower than the speed of light, like matter does, than the resulting observation of time makes up for it so it can remain quantized.
Think of the equation:
t + S = c
Time is t, S is Speed of particle, c is the speed of light, and every particle in the universe is bound to this equation. When S = c, time = 0, so time doesn't exist when a particle moves at the speed of light. However, when S < c, then time must be greater than zero, and so time seems to exist once S drops below c. I know, a lot of math, but it's the truth about our universe. See, this is the equation that explain the space-time continuum and why time doesn't always exist.
Time is really what happens when two particles moving slower than light 'see' each other. We 'see' the clock, and it 'sees' us. Thus, relativity. It's ironic the only way we can see it is through the communication of something, light, that does move at the speed of light.
Anyways, the space-time continuum is very interesting because it's really got to do with the universal theory of conservation of energy, which we all do understand, but I digress.
So what is the result of all this? Well, things moving slower than the speed of light can observe time to make up for it. However, since matter only makes up 5% of the universe, time doesn't exist for the majority of the universe. In fact, neither does our concept of space as we know it. See, at the speed of light, where there is no time, you are everywhere at the same time, but only one place at a time. (bad word, time, but whatever. The human languages don't have words to metaphorize these concepts.) So time doesn't always exist. All that really exists is energy. Or should I say the relative existence of energy.
We just happen the be part of the beautifully slow dance between the positive and negative charges of particles called matter.
Life is beautiful because it's chaotic and predictable at the same time.
Hope that struck a note, but don't let it seep too deep, because it's too sobering unless you are ready to rework your entire view of yourself, life, and the universe.
#52
07/26/2002 (11:56 am)
Heh Looks like Art Bell found a new calling. ;)
#53
Almost all games include time (thus 4 dimensions), as I think it would be pretty boring to play a game that had no concept of time as nothing would ever move, since movement has to have the element of time.
The thing is, if you scripted the entire progress of the game using this notation, it wouldn't be any more realistic, infact it would be less realistic. It would basically be as if the players went back in time and are essentially re-living a history that has already passed, since it was completely scripted. There is deffinitely room here for fun games though.
I don't see this idea as being revolutionary at all, just a conveniet way to denote what spawns/happens when and where. The revolutionary idea, which I'm not sure I saw in this entire thread, would be having a system that could intelligently create these time triggered events without human interaction, that being GM's or players.
Simply saying at development time that Event A happens in coords (X,Y,Z,T) isn't a very good solution, since it is scripted at a time W, which has a set of all past and present actions and objects which will be completely different than T's set. Therefore it is really hard, at time W, to predict what can/should happen at time T if the players are allowed to really impact major things in the game. This was illistrated by someone in the thread who mentioned a a AI-controlled clan invading a town, that had previously been invaded by players. So, at time W someone scripted that this clan should invade the town at time T, but players invaded the town at some time after W but before T, therefore it wouldn't work.
Simply putting in logic to correct these abnormalities before they happen isn't really the best solution. What you need is a system that can take a slice of time, and create an event or object based on all the current data. GM's are a good example of a human version of this. Basically what I think you're getting at, with this whole thread, is the need for something like a computerized GM to create non-random events for the players to participate in. It could even losely follow a script, but would need to be intelligent enough to be able to deviate from it and bring the events back inline at some point of time later on.
I think that would really be a revolutionary game.
07/26/2002 (1:44 pm)
This whole idea, as presented by the first poster, is simply a convenient notation (X,Y,Z,T) for a time based trigger system.Almost all games include time (thus 4 dimensions), as I think it would be pretty boring to play a game that had no concept of time as nothing would ever move, since movement has to have the element of time.
The thing is, if you scripted the entire progress of the game using this notation, it wouldn't be any more realistic, infact it would be less realistic. It would basically be as if the players went back in time and are essentially re-living a history that has already passed, since it was completely scripted. There is deffinitely room here for fun games though.
I don't see this idea as being revolutionary at all, just a conveniet way to denote what spawns/happens when and where. The revolutionary idea, which I'm not sure I saw in this entire thread, would be having a system that could intelligently create these time triggered events without human interaction, that being GM's or players.
Simply saying at development time that Event A happens in coords (X,Y,Z,T) isn't a very good solution, since it is scripted at a time W, which has a set of all past and present actions and objects which will be completely different than T's set. Therefore it is really hard, at time W, to predict what can/should happen at time T if the players are allowed to really impact major things in the game. This was illistrated by someone in the thread who mentioned a a AI-controlled clan invading a town, that had previously been invaded by players. So, at time W someone scripted that this clan should invade the town at time T, but players invaded the town at some time after W but before T, therefore it wouldn't work.
Simply putting in logic to correct these abnormalities before they happen isn't really the best solution. What you need is a system that can take a slice of time, and create an event or object based on all the current data. GM's are a good example of a human version of this. Basically what I think you're getting at, with this whole thread, is the need for something like a computerized GM to create non-random events for the players to participate in. It could even losely follow a script, but would need to be intelligent enough to be able to deviate from it and bring the events back inline at some point of time later on.
I think that would really be a revolutionary game.
#54
But what this does is allow for a completely dynamic world. Instead of just having "trigger objects," things are always changing, whether the player triggers them or not, because the T axis is constantly moving forward steadily (note that in the real universe, your perspective of how time progresses actually changes very subtlely based on how fast your moving. It doesn't become humanly noticeable until you're approaching light speed, but doing that in a game is getting a little nit-picky). To do what I'm talking about, you'd place "tags" on the T axis, and as the tags were activated they'd trigger things.
This isn't huge and really was never meant to be. It's just a surprisingly simple way to create a fully dynamic world without spending inordinate amounts of time on scripting. That's something an MMORPG could really use, because they're getting less and less unique nowadays.
I also think your idea would be revolutionary, albeit very difficult to pull off. I'm sure it will get into a game one of these days, because AI keeps on getting better and better. A dynamic world without the need for human interaction could form a new kind of entertainment--where people watch an entire world unfold without doing a thing. It would be interesting to see what gamers thought about that.
07/26/2002 (3:14 pm)
Dave, I wasn't the one who said this was revolutionary. I'm not sure I think it is at all.But what this does is allow for a completely dynamic world. Instead of just having "trigger objects," things are always changing, whether the player triggers them or not, because the T axis is constantly moving forward steadily (note that in the real universe, your perspective of how time progresses actually changes very subtlely based on how fast your moving. It doesn't become humanly noticeable until you're approaching light speed, but doing that in a game is getting a little nit-picky). To do what I'm talking about, you'd place "tags" on the T axis, and as the tags were activated they'd trigger things.
This isn't huge and really was never meant to be. It's just a surprisingly simple way to create a fully dynamic world without spending inordinate amounts of time on scripting. That's something an MMORPG could really use, because they're getting less and less unique nowadays.
I also think your idea would be revolutionary, albeit very difficult to pull off. I'm sure it will get into a game one of these days, because AI keeps on getting better and better. A dynamic world without the need for human interaction could form a new kind of entertainment--where people watch an entire world unfold without doing a thing. It would be interesting to see what gamers thought about that.
#55
Even quake had a variable that tracked time and certain events simply happened at certain times. Remember Quake 2? Those jets that fly across the screen and the sparks that come off pre-broken items are all time managed. They start as soon the level loads and keeps on running.
It's also redundant to track time in this way from both a technical and gameplay stance. Technically, it would require more memory than needed to track time this way, rather than basing it off an external clock.
Play wise, MMORPG developers already have plenty of planned events like this, season changes, weather changes, day/night cycles, they're all tied to time. As for events, playwise, it's not a good idea to have events simply happen as preplanned on a set date and time. This is because you want players to have the kind of interaction with the event, so they should be the ones that bring it about, and they should be the ones that end it.
Time is already a part of everything, there's no need to get all physical or metaphysical about it. ;)
07/26/2002 (3:57 pm)
Steve, it's been done. If games currently didn't involve time, they would all be screenshots. To recap:Even quake had a variable that tracked time and certain events simply happened at certain times. Remember Quake 2? Those jets that fly across the screen and the sparks that come off pre-broken items are all time managed. They start as soon the level loads and keeps on running.
It's also redundant to track time in this way from both a technical and gameplay stance. Technically, it would require more memory than needed to track time this way, rather than basing it off an external clock.
Play wise, MMORPG developers already have plenty of planned events like this, season changes, weather changes, day/night cycles, they're all tied to time. As for events, playwise, it's not a good idea to have events simply happen as preplanned on a set date and time. This is because you want players to have the kind of interaction with the event, so they should be the ones that bring it about, and they should be the ones that end it.
Time is already a part of everything, there's no need to get all physical or metaphysical about it. ;)
#56
I don't mean having "time" in games per se. I mean that all events are triggered by -time-, not by the player's actions.
Perhaps this is something people would have to see in action to really understand...
07/26/2002 (7:09 pm)
No, it hasn't been done in the way I'm talking about.I don't mean having "time" in games per se. I mean that all events are triggered by -time-, not by the player's actions.
Perhaps this is something people would have to see in action to really understand...
#57
I already know what you're talking about, and it has been done. Time is already a part of every game out there, just not the heavy metaphysical conepts you want.
There was an RPG in development a while back that had this sort of thing in mind. Except when travelling distances or other long mundane tasks, the world would be in real-time and events would constantly be happening without player intervention. So if the player ended up standing in a forest for the entirity of the game, the game would actually end and the story concludes without him doing anything. I don't know what they did, but that was several years ago and I haven't heard anything of this game since.
In the realm of games, it's not worth making events that will never be seen. Not only that, if you preset too much of the game, players will get bored since if it's all preset, there's nothing that happens.
The best way to do this is to preset when certain PLANS are set into motion, not events. Such as a plan for the assassination of a king may trigger one night after a select few NPCs gather. Then any PCs who are involved in the underworld may catch wind of this plan, and change it, thus the new event becomes something player triggered.
07/26/2002 (10:03 pm)
If an event that developers planned to occur at the start of the game occurs, and there are no players to see it, does it make a sound?I already know what you're talking about, and it has been done. Time is already a part of every game out there, just not the heavy metaphysical conepts you want.
There was an RPG in development a while back that had this sort of thing in mind. Except when travelling distances or other long mundane tasks, the world would be in real-time and events would constantly be happening without player intervention. So if the player ended up standing in a forest for the entirity of the game, the game would actually end and the story concludes without him doing anything. I don't know what they did, but that was several years ago and I haven't heard anything of this game since.
In the realm of games, it's not worth making events that will never be seen. Not only that, if you preset too much of the game, players will get bored since if it's all preset, there's nothing that happens.
The best way to do this is to preset when certain PLANS are set into motion, not events. Such as a plan for the assassination of a king may trigger one night after a select few NPCs gather. Then any PCs who are involved in the underworld may catch wind of this plan, and change it, thus the new event becomes something player triggered.
Torque Owner Harold "LabRat" Brown
You could make a single player game where time was a co-ordinate that could be manipulated.
Basically the character you play would have to exist outside the game worlds timestream. So you they could move to any point in the games history / future. And they could move items from one time co-ordinate to another.