The Future of MMO and CRPGs: Four Dimensional Gaming
by Habib Karpal · in General Discussion · 03/23/2002 (12:50 pm) · 57 replies
Note: this is more like an article than a forum post, before you start reading.
Introduction
Astrophysics has always been a subject that interested me since the first time I saw an episode of Star Trek (which, by the way, I do not watch anymore). Inertial dampers, faster-than-light travel and antimatter have constantly been such subjects that make people wonder what the future of a civilization can--and perhaps will--be.
Something even more interesting than those subjects is the idea of time and time travel. Time is a thing that affects us every day--how we act, where want to go and things we want to do are all affected by time. It is eternal and unescapable, for nothing can not exist in a world without time.
What about games? Today, most modern games are often three dimensional--that is to say, they have the characteristics of the three spacial dimensions: length, height and depth. However, despite the apparent realism of these games, the universe in which we live is in fact, not three dimensional, but rather four dimensional. Why? First, I must explain the first three dimensions with which most people are familiar.
Spacial Dimensions
The first dimension is as simple as it gets. It is simply lines and nothing more. In fact, if you wanted to place an object in some sort of horribly boring 1D game, it would simply be a point on a line. Luckily, there are no 1D games.
Plots: X (length)
The second dimension is familiar with everyone, including elementary schoolers. Many games are 2D, as these games have properties of width and height and can be as entertaining as 3D games in many cases. Two dimensional objects are completely flat, like drawings on paper.
Plots: X (length), Y (height)
Finally, the third dimension is the most popular environment for modern games. It allows for the most visual realism, and is very close to the dimension in which we live (which I will explain later--those of you who know what I am building up to can skip this section). The third dimension is the second dimension with depth, so that no object is flat unless its depth is equal to precisely zero (even atoms have more depth than zero, and essentially there are no objects whose depth is zero--even the pixels on your computer screen have the depth of the light wave projecting them on to the monitor).
Plots: X (length), Y (height), Z (depth)
Our Dimension
Contrary to popular belief, we do not live in the third dimension. However, it is true that we exist in three dimensions of space, which were described above. This may seem a little on the confusing side, but once I explain where we actually live, it will be much clearer.
I did mention time at the beginning of this article for a reason. It may or may not have occured to you by now why I did so--for in fact, we are living in the fourth dimension, and the fourth dimension is time itself. So in short, we live in three dimensions of space and one of time.
Because we live in only one dimension in time, we can only go in one direction in it--forward. To compare, an object in one spacial dimension can only go in one direction--forward. It is as simple as that, and that is also why it is not possible to travel in time. For if we lived in two dimensions of time, you could time-travel simply by doing it. How you would do so is practically impossible to comprehend, since we ourselves only exist in four dimensions.
Now, what does all this have to do with gaming? Yes, now for the interesting part.
The Fourth Dimension and Gaming
All games thus far have been three dimensional. Time is simply emulated by using scripts and invisible objects the player triggers when they pass a certain point or do a certain thing. No game has truly used a time-space continuum. While that may seem understandable, it is actually remarkably simple to implement the fourth dimension into a game, simply because we live in and understand it.
Let's say you're making the first game to use 4D techniques. Why would you want to do it, and how would you do it?
Why Would I Want to Use 4D Gaming, and How Would I Do It?
The prospect of 4D games can bring a multitude of possibilities never before seen in the video and PC gaming industry. The complexity of a world could skyrocket beyond unimaginable means and still be easily controlled by the development team.
Let's say Joe Games is developing an MMORPG called Timeless. We need not get into the details of it; simply know that it is an MMORPG. The Joe Games developers put in all their objects into the world differently than would be expected. Instead of plotting the usual 1,2,3 into the game editor, they punch in 1,2,3,4! The fourth number is--you guessed it-- the object's position in the game's time-space continuum. Just as a three dimensional object does not exist in a place where it is not plotted, a four dimensional object does not exist where it is not plotted. Now, this plotted object that Joe Games put in would only last for as long as the chosen value of time was (in this case, minutes). So, four minutes into the the game, this object appears for one minute and then disappears. But how to keep it there permenantly? Simply bend conventional mathematics a bit and do this:
1,2,3,4-10
Now, the object appears four minutes into the game and lasts for six. But, what if you wanted an object to stay there for the whole game? Then, simply do this:
1,2,3,infinite
And make "infinite" a variable in your code making the object unaffected by time. How would you make your game recognize time? Simply program a clock application to output to one number. That's it. So, you'd simply code up a clock that shows time's value in one number--for instance, if the clock counts hours, then the time-space continuum in the game changes by the hour.
Just imagine what kinds of games could be built using 4D gaming--an MMORPG could literally be everchanging, with the developers constantly uploading new events into the server network's timestream, making every day a different tale. Games would become as unpredictable as life itself. Finally, there would be no more need for simple event-triggering to emulate time--for you would now have complete control of your very own time-space continuum. And a 4D gaming environment would be easier on computer resources than current event-triggering emulation--for the computer would only be running one command, as opposed to multiple ones.
It's my belief that some day 4D gaming will be a reality, and that it will change the RPG businness forever--both because of its remarkable simplicity, and unlimited range of possibilities.
-Steve Schmith
Introduction
Astrophysics has always been a subject that interested me since the first time I saw an episode of Star Trek (which, by the way, I do not watch anymore). Inertial dampers, faster-than-light travel and antimatter have constantly been such subjects that make people wonder what the future of a civilization can--and perhaps will--be.
Something even more interesting than those subjects is the idea of time and time travel. Time is a thing that affects us every day--how we act, where want to go and things we want to do are all affected by time. It is eternal and unescapable, for nothing can not exist in a world without time.
What about games? Today, most modern games are often three dimensional--that is to say, they have the characteristics of the three spacial dimensions: length, height and depth. However, despite the apparent realism of these games, the universe in which we live is in fact, not three dimensional, but rather four dimensional. Why? First, I must explain the first three dimensions with which most people are familiar.
Spacial Dimensions
The first dimension is as simple as it gets. It is simply lines and nothing more. In fact, if you wanted to place an object in some sort of horribly boring 1D game, it would simply be a point on a line. Luckily, there are no 1D games.
Plots: X (length)
The second dimension is familiar with everyone, including elementary schoolers. Many games are 2D, as these games have properties of width and height and can be as entertaining as 3D games in many cases. Two dimensional objects are completely flat, like drawings on paper.
Plots: X (length), Y (height)
Finally, the third dimension is the most popular environment for modern games. It allows for the most visual realism, and is very close to the dimension in which we live (which I will explain later--those of you who know what I am building up to can skip this section). The third dimension is the second dimension with depth, so that no object is flat unless its depth is equal to precisely zero (even atoms have more depth than zero, and essentially there are no objects whose depth is zero--even the pixels on your computer screen have the depth of the light wave projecting them on to the monitor).
Plots: X (length), Y (height), Z (depth)
Our Dimension
Contrary to popular belief, we do not live in the third dimension. However, it is true that we exist in three dimensions of space, which were described above. This may seem a little on the confusing side, but once I explain where we actually live, it will be much clearer.
I did mention time at the beginning of this article for a reason. It may or may not have occured to you by now why I did so--for in fact, we are living in the fourth dimension, and the fourth dimension is time itself. So in short, we live in three dimensions of space and one of time.
Because we live in only one dimension in time, we can only go in one direction in it--forward. To compare, an object in one spacial dimension can only go in one direction--forward. It is as simple as that, and that is also why it is not possible to travel in time. For if we lived in two dimensions of time, you could time-travel simply by doing it. How you would do so is practically impossible to comprehend, since we ourselves only exist in four dimensions.
Now, what does all this have to do with gaming? Yes, now for the interesting part.
The Fourth Dimension and Gaming
All games thus far have been three dimensional. Time is simply emulated by using scripts and invisible objects the player triggers when they pass a certain point or do a certain thing. No game has truly used a time-space continuum. While that may seem understandable, it is actually remarkably simple to implement the fourth dimension into a game, simply because we live in and understand it.
Let's say you're making the first game to use 4D techniques. Why would you want to do it, and how would you do it?
Why Would I Want to Use 4D Gaming, and How Would I Do It?
The prospect of 4D games can bring a multitude of possibilities never before seen in the video and PC gaming industry. The complexity of a world could skyrocket beyond unimaginable means and still be easily controlled by the development team.
Let's say Joe Games is developing an MMORPG called Timeless. We need not get into the details of it; simply know that it is an MMORPG. The Joe Games developers put in all their objects into the world differently than would be expected. Instead of plotting the usual 1,2,3 into the game editor, they punch in 1,2,3,4! The fourth number is--you guessed it-- the object's position in the game's time-space continuum. Just as a three dimensional object does not exist in a place where it is not plotted, a four dimensional object does not exist where it is not plotted. Now, this plotted object that Joe Games put in would only last for as long as the chosen value of time was (in this case, minutes). So, four minutes into the the game, this object appears for one minute and then disappears. But how to keep it there permenantly? Simply bend conventional mathematics a bit and do this:
1,2,3,4-10
Now, the object appears four minutes into the game and lasts for six. But, what if you wanted an object to stay there for the whole game? Then, simply do this:
1,2,3,infinite
And make "infinite" a variable in your code making the object unaffected by time. How would you make your game recognize time? Simply program a clock application to output to one number. That's it. So, you'd simply code up a clock that shows time's value in one number--for instance, if the clock counts hours, then the time-space continuum in the game changes by the hour.
Just imagine what kinds of games could be built using 4D gaming--an MMORPG could literally be everchanging, with the developers constantly uploading new events into the server network's timestream, making every day a different tale. Games would become as unpredictable as life itself. Finally, there would be no more need for simple event-triggering to emulate time--for you would now have complete control of your very own time-space continuum. And a 4D gaming environment would be easier on computer resources than current event-triggering emulation--for the computer would only be running one command, as opposed to multiple ones.
It's my belief that some day 4D gaming will be a reality, and that it will change the RPG businness forever--both because of its remarkable simplicity, and unlimited range of possibilities.
-Steve Schmith
#2
This argument, I believe, was ingeniously resolved eighty years ago. ;)
FYI, dimensions have absolutely nothing to do with volume. Dimensions determine an object's location in the universe and nothing more. You are thinking of dimensions as in measurements, while I am referring to the dimensions used in physics.
The fifth dimension can only be represented in mathematics. We live in the fourth dimension, as every physicist will tell you.
03/23/2002 (1:02 pm)
Ever heard of the Theory of Relativity? Where time and space are relative to one another? Surely you are not arguing that Albert Einstein is wrong and you are right. Please read a physics book before you make a post like that. If we lived in only three dimensions, time would literally be non-existant.This argument, I believe, was ingeniously resolved eighty years ago. ;)
FYI, dimensions have absolutely nothing to do with volume. Dimensions determine an object's location in the universe and nothing more. You are thinking of dimensions as in measurements, while I am referring to the dimensions used in physics.
The fifth dimension can only be represented in mathematics. We live in the fourth dimension, as every physicist will tell you.
#3
I dunno, but mathematic theory annoys me because people try to inflate it's use in real life. So don't worry, it's not just your arguement here.
How does the 4th dimension relate to game interaction?
All I see is a game that changes as time goes on. Isn't that just randomized events? Why bother even having to deal with the 4th dimension?
Sure, math can do a lot of things... but why do we even need to think about this when making games? Time is something everyone thinks of, but there really isn't a reason to accept is as a dimension. Yeah, a 4 dimension coordinate somewhere in the universe would tell us where it is, and at what time it was there... but why does that matter to games?
I understand perfectly. Time is a measurement from the origin of the object's "time". Just how length, width and depth are measurements from the origin on other axis.
The 5th dimension tries to push that time is 2d, 6th dimension would imply that time is 3d... we could go on forever.
But why is that important in game design?
03/23/2002 (1:33 pm)
Why should we care about the 4th dimension in games?I dunno, but mathematic theory annoys me because people try to inflate it's use in real life. So don't worry, it's not just your arguement here.
How does the 4th dimension relate to game interaction?
All I see is a game that changes as time goes on. Isn't that just randomized events? Why bother even having to deal with the 4th dimension?
Sure, math can do a lot of things... but why do we even need to think about this when making games? Time is something everyone thinks of, but there really isn't a reason to accept is as a dimension. Yeah, a 4 dimension coordinate somewhere in the universe would tell us where it is, and at what time it was there... but why does that matter to games?
I understand perfectly. Time is a measurement from the origin of the object's "time". Just how length, width and depth are measurements from the origin on other axis.
The 5th dimension tries to push that time is 2d, 6th dimension would imply that time is 3d... we could go on forever.
But why is that important in game design?
#4
Basically, it would be useful for creating gigantic, life-like, 100% active worlds where every day you had something different to experience. And the player wouldn't have to trigger it; it would just happen unexpectedly. THAT'S why it would be something cool to have in a game.
This is opposed to most RPGs where the player uses object A and makes event B happen. In a 4D game, event C happens, while at the same time, events R, C, X, U, Y and Z are all going on while event E is about to occur and event O has just ended. Objects could also be added at certain points of time, making weapon inventories, etc. endless. All of this would occur without the player having to trigger a script or use an object.
I admit that it may seem kind of useless, but if you think about it for a while, you'll see what I mean. Events and such could all exist at different stages simultaneously without having to call scripts and functions from the game's engine or data files.
03/23/2002 (1:37 pm)
It's important because you could implement this to make an ever-changing world of PLANNED events, not random. So the developers could literrally plan out the events of an MMORPG for the entire year, and the players would be able to experience each event as it happened, just like in real life.Basically, it would be useful for creating gigantic, life-like, 100% active worlds where every day you had something different to experience. And the player wouldn't have to trigger it; it would just happen unexpectedly. THAT'S why it would be something cool to have in a game.
This is opposed to most RPGs where the player uses object A and makes event B happen. In a 4D game, event C happens, while at the same time, events R, C, X, U, Y and Z are all going on while event E is about to occur and event O has just ended. Objects could also be added at certain points of time, making weapon inventories, etc. endless. All of this would occur without the player having to trigger a script or use an object.
I admit that it may seem kind of useless, but if you think about it for a while, you'll see what I mean. Events and such could all exist at different stages simultaneously without having to call scripts and functions from the game's engine or data files.
#5
But isn't that just using a timeline?
Well I guess now that i've spent so much time thinking about this (relative to other things hehe) I can sort of see your point.
If you wanted to really use 4d you couldn't trigger events at specific times. No "At 4:00 PM 9/10/2003 call function 'superBattle3'" you'd have to set it up so that at the time changes occur at specific locations... "At 4:00 PM 9/10/2003 at coords 4,5,190.9 this happens."
Not impossible, but why do we have to work with 4 dimensions? Heh, I could think in 3 dimensions and not even know about the idea of the 4th dimension and I could use this exact same idea.
I'm not trying to belittle your (or Einstiens) idea, but isn't normal logic already accounting for the 4th dimension?
03/23/2002 (1:54 pm)
No, I understand that.But isn't that just using a timeline?
Well I guess now that i've spent so much time thinking about this (relative to other things hehe) I can sort of see your point.
If you wanted to really use 4d you couldn't trigger events at specific times. No "At 4:00 PM 9/10/2003 call function 'superBattle3'" you'd have to set it up so that at the time changes occur at specific locations... "At 4:00 PM 9/10/2003 at coords 4,5,190.9 this happens."
Not impossible, but why do we have to work with 4 dimensions? Heh, I could think in 3 dimensions and not even know about the idea of the 4th dimension and I could use this exact same idea.
I'm not trying to belittle your (or Einstiens) idea, but isn't normal logic already accounting for the 4th dimension?
#6
as for all that dimensional stuff, im no physicist, but it doesnt take a genius to figure out that what einstein was getting at with the theory of relativity, at least with regards to time, was that its relative. sorry if that sounds facetious, but its true. and to my mind, calling time a dimension at all is kind of overstating things. yes, it is a fundamental element of the universe, yes without it wed be nonexistent (as with the other fundamentals like depth, height, etc.) but if the earth had settled a little closer to the sun in its orbit, oh, 10 billion years ago, then wed be nonexistent then too.
but my whole argument with time travel, and this that and the other about time, is that TIME is just a name we give to the process of action. "hey look grog, this crystal vibrates at exact intervals when i apply a charge" "cool, thog". thus the clock was born. then we run out and measure every process against this clock and think we know what TIME is. we don't, and i dont think we ever will.
then that einstein guy comes up with all kinds of loopholes, like astronauts leaving at lightspeed for twenty years and coming back looking only ten years older. man, that suks, now we dont know what time is anymore.
but someone somehow got the idea that time travel is possible. i cant come up with why in physics terms, obviously, but i can do it in plain english.
you cant travel to the past, because the past is just a record of what occured before now. the PAST does not exist anymore, its not some place to be travelled to. now the marvel comics thing, where there are infinite alternate dimensions, so logically theres one identical to yours, only ten seconds ago, or yesterday, or a billion years ago, is another story. who can argue with dimensional travel, with black holes out there unexplained?
you cant travel into the future, because it hasn't happened yet. its non existent, its what we think might happen, maybe. unless you consider sleeping in a cryo tube for a million years to be time travel, which kinda could be.
bottom line, from what i could gather from einstein, he never pushed time travel, just slowing it down and speeding it up (relatively speaking) =).
sorry if i ranted too long on this, just one of my pet theories that i like blabbing about.
03/23/2002 (2:03 pm)
steve, i like your ideas about planning ahead for mmorpgs, rather than constantly maintaining them. it would have been a whole lot quicker to just say as much, without all the physics semantics, but who am i to judge? as for all that dimensional stuff, im no physicist, but it doesnt take a genius to figure out that what einstein was getting at with the theory of relativity, at least with regards to time, was that its relative. sorry if that sounds facetious, but its true. and to my mind, calling time a dimension at all is kind of overstating things. yes, it is a fundamental element of the universe, yes without it wed be nonexistent (as with the other fundamentals like depth, height, etc.) but if the earth had settled a little closer to the sun in its orbit, oh, 10 billion years ago, then wed be nonexistent then too.
but my whole argument with time travel, and this that and the other about time, is that TIME is just a name we give to the process of action. "hey look grog, this crystal vibrates at exact intervals when i apply a charge" "cool, thog". thus the clock was born. then we run out and measure every process against this clock and think we know what TIME is. we don't, and i dont think we ever will.
then that einstein guy comes up with all kinds of loopholes, like astronauts leaving at lightspeed for twenty years and coming back looking only ten years older. man, that suks, now we dont know what time is anymore.
but someone somehow got the idea that time travel is possible. i cant come up with why in physics terms, obviously, but i can do it in plain english.
you cant travel to the past, because the past is just a record of what occured before now. the PAST does not exist anymore, its not some place to be travelled to. now the marvel comics thing, where there are infinite alternate dimensions, so logically theres one identical to yours, only ten seconds ago, or yesterday, or a billion years ago, is another story. who can argue with dimensional travel, with black holes out there unexplained?
you cant travel into the future, because it hasn't happened yet. its non existent, its what we think might happen, maybe. unless you consider sleeping in a cryo tube for a million years to be time travel, which kinda could be.
bottom line, from what i could gather from einstein, he never pushed time travel, just slowing it down and speeding it up (relatively speaking) =).
sorry if i ranted too long on this, just one of my pet theories that i like blabbing about.
#7
03/23/2002 (2:09 pm)
oh yeah, i wrote my post after finishing half of yours, went back and read the rest, heh. the idea of adding a time dimension to objects in a game is actually kind of brilliant, at least in terms of thinking about time in a game. dunno if its that practically important (as in "isnt that just a timeline?"), but thinking X,Y,Z...A! is very elegant. hmm.
#8
Yes, in some ways you actually can travel in time. But jumping to various time periods is impossible. For instance, the closer you travel to the speed of light, the slower time progresses and the smaller objects seem. This is actually true; if you take an atomic clock on to a space shuttle and before it launches, match it with an exact copy of another atomic clock and start them at the same time, the one on the space shuttle actually records time slower than the one on the ground (albeit very subltely).
Time is as existant as height, depth and all the others are, it is simply just a hard concept to understand.
03/23/2002 (2:12 pm)
Actually, I agree with most of what you said, with exception to time not being a dimension, which Matt now understands it is. It's a little hard to compare time to the spacial dimensions, but technically it is one.Yes, in some ways you actually can travel in time. But jumping to various time periods is impossible. For instance, the closer you travel to the speed of light, the slower time progresses and the smaller objects seem. This is actually true; if you take an atomic clock on to a space shuttle and before it launches, match it with an exact copy of another atomic clock and start them at the same time, the one on the space shuttle actually records time slower than the one on the ground (albeit very subltely).
Time is as existant as height, depth and all the others are, it is simply just a hard concept to understand.
#9
Bob made a new MMORPG engine that bases itself on a clock (he makes a 4D engine). This clock starts at zero and increases by one for every hour that passes. Now, Joe Software buys Bob's engine to make a medieval MMORPG. Here is an example of this MMORPG's gameplay as easily as I can put it:
The MMORPG is put online after it's released. In the first few hours, nothing special happens because the developers want to allow some time for the game to be installed, etc. Now, people start connecting to servers and finishing their character generation. Three hours has passed, and something happens. In one of the cities in the world, a dragon has just invaded a town where a lot of player characters are, and at the same time on the other side of the continent, an army of AI characters invades the human player's country (the actual human players in this case are all citizens of one country). So, the players work together to kill the dragon, and start to assmeble an army to stop the invasion. However, a human travelling in another country finds out that in three days yet another army will be invading their country. No one believes him, but in three days that army invades, right on time. Throughout this entire time, everyone has been carrying out the usual MMORPG things like level-building and stuff. However, the world seems very alive because the NPCs are always doing something different because they react differently at different times, events happen and it could get extremely complex.
Basically, yes my idea is just a timeline, but that's something that actually hasn't been used in games before. That's why I was saying it was so simple! :)
Does that make it easier to understand?
03/23/2002 (2:22 pm)
Here's what I mean by using the fourth dimension in gaming since I never gave a good example.Bob made a new MMORPG engine that bases itself on a clock (he makes a 4D engine). This clock starts at zero and increases by one for every hour that passes. Now, Joe Software buys Bob's engine to make a medieval MMORPG. Here is an example of this MMORPG's gameplay as easily as I can put it:
The MMORPG is put online after it's released. In the first few hours, nothing special happens because the developers want to allow some time for the game to be installed, etc. Now, people start connecting to servers and finishing their character generation. Three hours has passed, and something happens. In one of the cities in the world, a dragon has just invaded a town where a lot of player characters are, and at the same time on the other side of the continent, an army of AI characters invades the human player's country (the actual human players in this case are all citizens of one country). So, the players work together to kill the dragon, and start to assmeble an army to stop the invasion. However, a human travelling in another country finds out that in three days yet another army will be invading their country. No one believes him, but in three days that army invades, right on time. Throughout this entire time, everyone has been carrying out the usual MMORPG things like level-building and stuff. However, the world seems very alive because the NPCs are always doing something different because they react differently at different times, events happen and it could get extremely complex.
Basically, yes my idea is just a timeline, but that's something that actually hasn't been used in games before. That's why I was saying it was so simple! :)
Does that make it easier to understand?
#10
But this leads to a huge tradeoff between ease of use, and truly dynamic gameplay. Let's say, for example, an army from the great city of Huginfell is scheduled to invade Nomeland at time 12181. In a truly dynamic world, a player made army from Nomeland could have made plans to invade Huginfell at time 11307 - sacked the town and burnt it to the ground a good month before Huginfell was scheduled to attack Nomeland. To deal with this you have to either a) not allow players to have such a dramatic impact on the game world, b) come up with some extremely intricate algorithms to determine any affects of the player's actions, or c) have people from the Live team keep track of what the player's do, determine any effects it would have on the timeline, and adapt the events to take this into account.
Depending on the granularity of events in your timeline this could end being a bigger hassle than benefit. What if the would-be mother of some awesome character you planned to grow up and unite the kingdoms after eons of war was killed by some player that was bored :) Sure you could just move the virtual fetus to another mother - but still, it'd be a bit of a hassle to achieve that level of realism and immersiveness.
My thoughts on involving time in games isn't so much dictacting the future as it is giving people the ability to visit and/or change the past. Like you said, the future doesn't exist yet... However even if you're dealing with the past and can maintain a record of where every item in the world was at a given time.. going back and changing something would lead to the same problems with events in the present affecting the future.
I know I'm making this a lot more complicated than you probably thought it'd be... and it really would be pretty revolutionary if a game could get it to work to the point where gamers would be in awe of their ability to manipulate time...
Maybe when we all have quantum computers.. but that would be cheating :) *drool*
posts like this ALMOST make me glad i took a class in quantum physics heh
-noh
[Edit: I type too fast for my own good]
03/23/2002 (3:01 pm)
First of all, I'd like to say I really like the idea of adding a concept of time to game worlds. However, it's really impossible to turn the 4D concept into something really unique in a multiplayer game. With your MMORPG examples, it's just something of a convienience for the developers. They have the ability to dictate actions before they happen, and not actually have to make actions happen as they happen, or relying on triggers - which is the state of current MMORPGs.But this leads to a huge tradeoff between ease of use, and truly dynamic gameplay. Let's say, for example, an army from the great city of Huginfell is scheduled to invade Nomeland at time 12181. In a truly dynamic world, a player made army from Nomeland could have made plans to invade Huginfell at time 11307 - sacked the town and burnt it to the ground a good month before Huginfell was scheduled to attack Nomeland. To deal with this you have to either a) not allow players to have such a dramatic impact on the game world, b) come up with some extremely intricate algorithms to determine any affects of the player's actions, or c) have people from the Live team keep track of what the player's do, determine any effects it would have on the timeline, and adapt the events to take this into account.
Depending on the granularity of events in your timeline this could end being a bigger hassle than benefit. What if the would-be mother of some awesome character you planned to grow up and unite the kingdoms after eons of war was killed by some player that was bored :) Sure you could just move the virtual fetus to another mother - but still, it'd be a bit of a hassle to achieve that level of realism and immersiveness.
My thoughts on involving time in games isn't so much dictacting the future as it is giving people the ability to visit and/or change the past. Like you said, the future doesn't exist yet... However even if you're dealing with the past and can maintain a record of where every item in the world was at a given time.. going back and changing something would lead to the same problems with events in the present affecting the future.
I know I'm making this a lot more complicated than you probably thought it'd be... and it really would be pretty revolutionary if a game could get it to work to the point where gamers would be in awe of their ability to manipulate time...
Maybe when we all have quantum computers.. but that would be cheating :) *drool*
posts like this ALMOST make me glad i took a class in quantum physics heh
-noh
[Edit: I type too fast for my own good]
#11
Basically, if one of the elements that forms an event isnt' there, you tell the computer that it can't do it.
A game with this 4D stuff would take a lot of excellent design and creativity, but I think a truly innovative development team could pull it off. It would also take a lot of time to make, but it would probably be worth it.
And a game that was 4D with time travel would be awesome. :)
Obviously, you cannot simulate the real world in a 4D game because we don't know everthing about it...so, the game would have to be limited to what we do know. Developers would have eliminate paradoxes by making each possible paradox have a solution of some sort...otherwise the computer would crash.
A truly 4D game is probably a bit into the future, when desktop computers will be equivalent to today's top secret supercomputers. Either way, I hope it will happen eventually.
03/23/2002 (3:08 pm)
You could always code a function that prevents an event from happening by assigning each event with prerequisites. For instance, this country can't invade Country B if their country was destroyed before Time X. That solves that problem. Somewhat. :)Basically, if one of the elements that forms an event isnt' there, you tell the computer that it can't do it.
A game with this 4D stuff would take a lot of excellent design and creativity, but I think a truly innovative development team could pull it off. It would also take a lot of time to make, but it would probably be worth it.
And a game that was 4D with time travel would be awesome. :)
Obviously, you cannot simulate the real world in a 4D game because we don't know everthing about it...so, the game would have to be limited to what we do know. Developers would have eliminate paradoxes by making each possible paradox have a solution of some sort...otherwise the computer would crash.
A truly 4D game is probably a bit into the future, when desktop computers will be equivalent to today's top secret supercomputers. Either way, I hope it will happen eventually.
#12
For time to truely be considered as part of the dimension matrix you would have to be able to move in more than one direction. A feat that would be impossible to do.
An object in the current 3D games can freely move on any one of the three axis presented, and with triggers could be caused to move on a vector 180 degrees in relation to it's current movement.
Time on the otherhand would be linear and in one direction only. You could not spawn an item at any time co-ordinate of the game, nor could you cause an object to move in a negative time vector.
You could "simulate" this effect, in Torque for example, by having multiple "time" servers each sync'ed to run the same mission but for a different time co-ordinate. This would allow a master mission server to move objects, players, projectiles, etc from one "time server" to another.
But this of course would only simulate a 4D game where time was the 4th Dimension. This same setup could just as well be used to represent events happening at the same time co-ordinate but in alternate or parralel worlds (ala Sliders)
03/23/2002 (5:13 pm)
There is no possible way to create a 4D game where time was anything other then what it is in any other game out on the market now.For time to truely be considered as part of the dimension matrix you would have to be able to move in more than one direction. A feat that would be impossible to do.
An object in the current 3D games can freely move on any one of the three axis presented, and with triggers could be caused to move on a vector 180 degrees in relation to it's current movement.
Time on the otherhand would be linear and in one direction only. You could not spawn an item at any time co-ordinate of the game, nor could you cause an object to move in a negative time vector.
You could "simulate" this effect, in Torque for example, by having multiple "time" servers each sync'ed to run the same mission but for a different time co-ordinate. This would allow a master mission server to move objects, players, projectiles, etc from one "time server" to another.
But this of course would only simulate a 4D game where time was the 4th Dimension. This same setup could just as well be used to represent events happening at the same time co-ordinate but in alternate or parralel worlds (ala Sliders)
#13
The speed of an object effects how fast time moves aroudn it, making it a physical thing. Although we can not see or touch it, this is because we live in the 3D, we can only notice 3 dimensions in there whole, and only just feel time.
If we lived in the 4th dimension all points of time would exsit at the same time, as they do already. But because we live in the 3D the 4D flows around us, instead of being stationary.
Its like it you live in the 2D, a stick man on a piece of paper. You know the 3D exsits, but you 2D nature stops you controlling the 3D reality.
Time travel is most likely possible, all events exsit in a point in space, only seperated by time. Thus if you cross to the 4D all events in time can be moved between freely.
Like the 2D stick man. Who can move in 2D, but the distance between one piece of paper and another is 3D, so he can not move along it. Just like with us and time.
Learn some physics people.
03/23/2002 (6:17 pm)
Why is time a dimension? because:The speed of an object effects how fast time moves aroudn it, making it a physical thing. Although we can not see or touch it, this is because we live in the 3D, we can only notice 3 dimensions in there whole, and only just feel time.
If we lived in the 4th dimension all points of time would exsit at the same time, as they do already. But because we live in the 3D the 4D flows around us, instead of being stationary.
Its like it you live in the 2D, a stick man on a piece of paper. You know the 3D exsits, but you 2D nature stops you controlling the 3D reality.
Time travel is most likely possible, all events exsit in a point in space, only seperated by time. Thus if you cross to the 4D all events in time can be moved between freely.
Like the 2D stick man. Who can move in 2D, but the distance between one piece of paper and another is 3D, so he can not move along it. Just like with us and time.
Learn some physics people.
#14
The logic you apply to the fourth dimension is compeletly out-of-whack; this is something that's actually moderately easy to implement. All you do is make a timeline, and include it in an object's position in the universe. I'm not saying this has to be in Torque, I'm saying it would be in a more advanced engine.
With your logic, one could not use 2D sprites in a 3D game, which we are *cough* relatively sure is quite possible (with your logic, if we can't rotate it on all three axes, it can't be done after all).
As Ian said, please learn more about physics before discussing it. Thank you. :)
03/23/2002 (7:08 pm)
Quote:For time to truely be considered as part of the dimension matrix you would have to be able to move in more than one direction. A feat that would be impossible to do.Um no. Sorry, but time, just as in real life, does not move in more than one direction, just as a line in the first dimension only moves in one direction.
The logic you apply to the fourth dimension is compeletly out-of-whack; this is something that's actually moderately easy to implement. All you do is make a timeline, and include it in an object's position in the universe. I'm not saying this has to be in Torque, I'm saying it would be in a more advanced engine.
Quote:An object in the current 3D games can freely move on any one of the three axis presented, and with triggers could be caused to move on a vector 180 degrees in relation to it's current movement.Again, we only have one dimension of time to experience. You can't "rotate" an object in time. If that were possible and you managed to "rotate" yourself "180 degrees" in time, you would be looking at time going backwards into the past rather than going forwards. How do you say..."not possible." This is why the fifth dimension (three dimensions of space and two of time) can only be represented in mathematics; we do not live in five dimensions.
With your logic, one could not use 2D sprites in a 3D game, which we are *cough* relatively sure is quite possible (with your logic, if we can't rotate it on all three axes, it can't be done after all).
As Ian said, please learn more about physics before discussing it. Thank you. :)
#15
Four dimensional space is just our 3D space that we live in everyday, collapsed onto a line (the space-time continuum)
Fifth dimensional space would just be four dimensional space collapsed into a line... which could also be a 2D grid of 3D spaces (probably easiest to imagine this as the multiply dimensions in 'Sliders'... an 'infinite' number of different places with different timelines)
Now I'm not arguing whether or not there's an infinite number of dimensions, all I'm saying is it's not impossible to simulate n-dimensional space, mathematicians do it all the time... it's just hard to wrap your mind around it... plus you'd just have to have a ton of memory and computational power to simulate it in real time
Sure anything you make wouldn't be a 100% true simulation... doubles only have 16 bit precision :) But it'd be good enough, and very interesting.
If an object has a sudden change in velocity at time 't', its position would have to be updated for all times after 't' (which may lead to other collisions and thus changes in velocity/position and so on)... so it would require quite a bit of computation... but hey, I'm not trying to think of an efficient way of doing this, just trying to say it's theoretically possible...
Funny thing is if scientific progress continues like it has for the past 200 years, a few hundred years from now this will all probably be taught to kids in secondary school...
-noh
03/23/2002 (7:08 pm)
...and that's the beauty of computers - you can simulate just about everything, especially physical realities.Four dimensional space is just our 3D space that we live in everyday, collapsed onto a line (the space-time continuum)
Fifth dimensional space would just be four dimensional space collapsed into a line... which could also be a 2D grid of 3D spaces (probably easiest to imagine this as the multiply dimensions in 'Sliders'... an 'infinite' number of different places with different timelines)
Now I'm not arguing whether or not there's an infinite number of dimensions, all I'm saying is it's not impossible to simulate n-dimensional space, mathematicians do it all the time... it's just hard to wrap your mind around it... plus you'd just have to have a ton of memory and computational power to simulate it in real time
Sure anything you make wouldn't be a 100% true simulation... doubles only have 16 bit precision :) But it'd be good enough, and very interesting.
If an object has a sudden change in velocity at time 't', its position would have to be updated for all times after 't' (which may lead to other collisions and thus changes in velocity/position and so on)... so it would require quite a bit of computation... but hey, I'm not trying to think of an efficient way of doing this, just trying to say it's theoretically possible...
Funny thing is if scientific progress continues like it has for the past 200 years, a few hundred years from now this will all probably be taught to kids in secondary school...
-noh
#16
Putting 4D space in a game is possible, maybe even 5D, for example, when you shoot someone, a list could come up. Move to universe where:
You score a hit
You score a kill
You miss
You miss fire
You miss fire and your gun brakes.
Depending on your 5D skill, when choosing a result many things can happen. If your skill is high, and you roll a good die, the choice you select happens, if you fail you stay in the same universe, if you botch you may die.
The higher your skill the easier the roll.
Just an idea
03/23/2002 (7:19 pm)
The 5th dimension, "every possiblilty exists in every point of time" its a bit of mathamatical madness. Hard to prove. But thats unimportant really.Putting 4D space in a game is possible, maybe even 5D, for example, when you shoot someone, a list could come up. Move to universe where:
You score a hit
You score a kill
You miss
You miss fire
You miss fire and your gun brakes.
Depending on your 5D skill, when choosing a result many things can happen. If your skill is high, and you roll a good die, the choice you select happens, if you fail you stay in the same universe, if you botch you may die.
The higher your skill the easier the roll.
Just an idea
#17
While I don't think this is too innovative in terms of design (just a mathematical description of a timeline in a 3d movie/game) it has made me think of something else.
Why not create games more like real life?
Instead of having "spawn points" why not spawn areas? The monster could like the swap and instead of spawning at one of 10 spawn points in the swamp, it'll appear in a random location somewhere in the zone.
At night we see zombies start rising out of the graveyard, and during full moons we see other monsters start appearing around the caves.
For the most part, timelines are already used in games. Anarchy Online has been using a very poorly written and designed storyline (but the lead writer won't admit that. he thinks he's god) but for the most part it's pre-determined. "Oh look! another monster attacking!" and they just plan for the next few weeks similar events. "Okay, at 3pm sunday we're going to spawn a bunch of monsters and kill a bunch of players then hope they like it!".
I guess the real innovative adaptation of your idea would be dynamically created events based on times and actions of the players. Right now, it's just predetermined (by trigger, or by game master) and not dynamic.
Of course, this is a lot to ask since we'd require basically a world simulator.
03/23/2002 (8:10 pm)
5d is just the theory of parallel universes (2d time)While I don't think this is too innovative in terms of design (just a mathematical description of a timeline in a 3d movie/game) it has made me think of something else.
Why not create games more like real life?
Instead of having "spawn points" why not spawn areas? The monster could like the swap and instead of spawning at one of 10 spawn points in the swamp, it'll appear in a random location somewhere in the zone.
At night we see zombies start rising out of the graveyard, and during full moons we see other monsters start appearing around the caves.
For the most part, timelines are already used in games. Anarchy Online has been using a very poorly written and designed storyline (but the lead writer won't admit that. he thinks he's god) but for the most part it's pre-determined. "Oh look! another monster attacking!" and they just plan for the next few weeks similar events. "Okay, at 3pm sunday we're going to spawn a bunch of monsters and kill a bunch of players then hope they like it!".
I guess the real innovative adaptation of your idea would be dynamically created events based on times and actions of the players. Right now, it's just predetermined (by trigger, or by game master) and not dynamic.
Of course, this is a lot to ask since we'd require basically a world simulator.
#18
Like you said, "I guess the real innovative adaptation of your idea would be dynamically created events based on times and actions of the players. Right now, it's just predetermined (by trigger, or by game master) and not dynamic." Which was the point in the first place, really. Making events less of the "hey, the GMs are bored, let's butcher some newbies until the higher levels come and kill our completely insignificant, rediculously overpowered characters" and seem more random and making the world seem 'alive'.
And if you want to go all out, there's a lot of extremely interesting things you can do with multiple dimensions...
But as far as borderline doable goes, having the timeline being truly dynamic and not GM driven hasn't been done in an MMORPG yet...
-noh
03/23/2002 (9:48 pm)
Hate to burst your bubble, but most if not all MMORPGs out now have 'spawn areas' Not that it has anything to do with this thread...Like you said, "I guess the real innovative adaptation of your idea would be dynamically created events based on times and actions of the players. Right now, it's just predetermined (by trigger, or by game master) and not dynamic." Which was the point in the first place, really. Making events less of the "hey, the GMs are bored, let's butcher some newbies until the higher levels come and kill our completely insignificant, rediculously overpowered characters" and seem more random and making the world seem 'alive'.
And if you want to go all out, there's a lot of extremely interesting things you can do with multiple dimensions...
But as far as borderline doable goes, having the timeline being truly dynamic and not GM driven hasn't been done in an MMORPG yet...
-noh
#19
I'm talking about creating realistic interactions with the environment, not just "poof, they're here". Crawling out of the ground, coming out of caves, swimming up from the deep would add to the immersion a good deal.
Right now it's just some lame system of magically appearing.
03/23/2002 (10:07 pm)
Nah, the spawn areas are just big spawn points. Nothing new.I'm talking about creating realistic interactions with the environment, not just "poof, they're here". Crawling out of the ground, coming out of caves, swimming up from the deep would add to the immersion a good deal.
Right now it's just some lame system of magically appearing.
#20
03/23/2002 (10:17 pm)
good point matt, we need to put the spawn back in spawn points. *poof* is reaaallly cheesy.
Torque Owner Matt Webster
We relate mathematical dimensions to measures of volume, and time isn't a measure of physical volume.
I've heard this same line of reasoning before, as have I heard "one dimensions exist in real life" (which it doesn't... only mathematically) Or am I wrong and there is a reason we should measure volume with time now? Because even with time travel I don't see the need to count time as the fourth dimension.
It's a measurement unrelated to volume of space.