MS4 within a few months

#81 @Ed

Thanks for the email. That was pretty cool.

@David

I talked with Dan last night and he is gettings some of his words confused when he writes in English. That's not an excuse for fighting. But words such as 'against' or 'attack' are being used innocently to mean 'directed at' or 'pointing a finger of blame'. No one likes those word either, but they don't start white hot flames like 'attack' and 'against'. Just thought I should speak up for him.

#82 @David

Original chunk LOD algorithm was done by T. Ulrich. He also made the first *implementation* of that algorithm
giving codeout for ppl as a "sample implementation" So he did devloped both the algo and first implementation.
He put the implementation code in public domain.

What GG coders did was to take that implementation and integrate it in Torque. Id say it was rather a "integration" of the sample implementation in a game engine, adding new features and integrating with other components of the engine.

In a way whoever wrote that code recognizes this:

"Some portions of Atlas code derived from Thatcher Ulrich's original
// ChunkLOD implementation. "

The coder of Atlas is a great guy. he did aknowledged this. But he is kinda the only one =))) All other ppl to which I talked in tis community had little to no ideea what implementation Atlas uses, who create the throy, and the first sample implementation. We always have to set the record straight.

Its not like the guy looked at an abstract theorethical paper then created first implementation of Chunk LOD
from theory

#83 @Edvard


>> immediately after our little episode with Dan, are productive and interesting discussion spontaneously broke >>out about game development. Funny how that happens on a gamedev channel.

Yes. But do tell those fine ppl about what was that techincal discuttion. In fact it was LordHavoc, great coder, known for his Quake 1 Dark Places awesome engine modification, tutoring that GG employee I talked with about, guess what ? Terrains.

He explained to the guy what is ChunkLod, how it works. He also explained to [GG]Matt some stuff about geomipmapping , and some elments from clipmap technolgies. Now, i really docubt that LordHavoc would suddenly start to explain terrain engines to a GG employee , if there where not "the little incident with me"

So, do tell the fine ppl in this thread how the GG[matt] , which presumably had no ideea how Chunk Lod works, since it was explained to him later by LordHavoc how it works,
cut me off and told me how and what Atlas is. I asked him if it;s a coder, because if he is, he should study publicly available Chunk Lod implementations, and Atlas code.

[GG]Matt also sustains (he defends his company , things for which he is to be comended by his bosses, he deserve if not a raise, a bonus for defending the company so hard), that TSE is right on schedule, and that I only claim that GG starts to have PR problems, and GGs PR is perfect

Its kinda ironic. in the end. Tell the ppl the whole truths not pieces of it, the terrain disuction was due to me.

#84 Oh please, can't we let this drop yet? Yes, some of us are disappointed that TSE is taking longer than we were originally led to believe, but there isn't a whole lot we can do about it -- GG has to make decisions that keep them in business. Nobody is laughing over our measly $150, thinking what suckers we are.

#85 @Anton
I can understand the translation issue. It often comes into play and makes a lot of sense when it comes to spelling and the like. But the context of his behavior here and his preening on the C4 social forum about his inflammatory style speak a bit closer to the context of trolling than any attempt at discussion on practices and procedures.

@Dan
The process of ChunkLOD is remeniscent of Ultima 6 and 7's map implementation, but in 3D. I do not claim to know the specifics of it, but I do know that chunking data is nothing new. It has been used in very old, large-scale database file systems as a means of creating data entities larger than the hardware was normally capable of. his work was centered very strongly on progressive mesh algorithms which were also remeniscent of the progressive image technology created for print media which allowed for image paging on limited hardware.

I'm still not quite sure what you are advocating: information or accessibility. Or both. Or neither.

#86 Ultima 7 used tiles. I guess you can say that is a form of chuck LOD in extremis.

David, I never made a secret about the fact that my style is tough. Especially when Im provoked. And I am provoked. Other licensses of TSE must see this thread.

Apreciate that however I kept the dirty clothes inside a private forums, and I did not took it out on a public forum . I not did this because I dont want to impair GG;s sales. So I kept things in familiy.

I could bring it to a public forum , like

http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=42203

where my name is dragged inot a missinformation thread by Spillman, and where Stpephen employees double standards. He warns me for attacks, when Spillman is the one which made a direct attack on my name, lieing about me, making void assumptions, and directly using my name in a thread in which I wasnt even part.

Talking about double standards.

#87 Yes Dan, never mind people overreacting as soon as anyone criticises GG or their products. Some come to theirs senses some are beyond salvation :).
I'm not alluding to anyone in particular or even to this thread specifically, just in general across GG forums.

Luckily enough there are a few (GG guys and Customers) that are more objective and can take criticism in a constructive way.

Yes, there are other engines that have progressed/progressing faster in terms of features, easy of use etc... I have seen quality engines been built (well yes from scratch, not modifying existing tech with related issues) plus cool editors for a good workflow in much less time it has taken TSE to get where it is now and I'm not mentioning names because I don't want to start a this Vs that kind of sub-thread (and some of these engines are not on the market for licensing... and before you ask some of them were built by one guy! Some of them in 12 to 24 months!). Also all of them including GG tech are better on certain things and worse on others depending on the user's level of skill and needs.
But for good or bad reasons GG is busy on several fronts...

Actually I recall a fired up post from a GG guy saying something like " you keep whining we keep making games" I don't know if this is out of contest but if you keep making games without quickly transferring tech to the engine then stop selling engines and make better games! We are not interested in you making games unless new tech from your games becomes available to us....

Anyway, I'm sure clever people understand all the issues and I'm sure GG will adjust accordingly. The are doing a fantastic job with T2D, TGE is... well sort of cool even if not that nice in rendering quality. TSE will come... hopefully :)

#88 Just FYI. Every "advance" in real time graphics has a study done by someone else behind it. Stuff we are seeing in real time now, was done 5 or so years ago at SigGraph, for the most part. Taking a paper, with example code, and writing a game-specific implementation of it is not a small task.

If you want to knock TSE for building on existing research, than some love should be dished out on behalf of the Tribes networking paper that is still the definitive game-networking theory in the industry, and is still referenced.

I really fail to see how using, and citing, existing resources is a fault of an engine. Please excuse me if I don't go and spend the next few months trying to figure out how to derive and implement a DFT algorithm the next time I want to do some audio-driven effects.

#89 @Pat,

I know that. However too many ppl beleive all TSE is researched and implemented strictly at GG. This contriubutes to a state of worshiping of those ppl towards GG, one fals premisses. This is something Im fed up with. A bunch of ppl with blicndly beleives everything is resarched and created at GG. You will excuse Im spitting out some facts.

Weird thing is , those ppl dont even know the TGE / TSE for its network. They say is awesome for it unique GG invented terrain. Weird huh ?

For the record, I am impresioned by the way the game framework was built around the networking needs of the engine, and the results this yields. There are really good ideeas there, and I will take my hat off anyday of the week.

To explain this, is not a flaw of the engine. Is a flaw of a bunch of followers which are missinformed, and they got into a semi-extatic state of terrain and shader builder, which they are really convineced where researched and developed at GG in premeire.

#90 Yes, U7 is mainly the chunking without the LOD, which has been a common way of dealing with data for some time. The T&L implementation was a nice next step in progressive rendering tech. It was the merging of two mentalities for realtime rendering. I read the spec paper a few years ago (and I think he'd been working on it a few years before that) but my interest has never really been in terrain so I paged it to the reserves of my memory. I've probably segfaulted a couple of times since then, so I can't claim to remember what I read.

I have little comment on that thread other than the ship of fools relation I made to it originally. It seems that bedlam has overtaken all sides within it.

I can see your problem with misinformation. I have that problem with misguided advocates of any engine/company/system. And I am also as skeptical of the skeptics as I am those the skeptics are skeptical of.

#91 Yes, David, thank you. To respond a earlier question of yours which I glossed over about what im advocating is

1. A bit of effort from GG part to push TSE a higher priority
2. If this aint possible make just a little more effort to create a info thread on this board, trying to give us the licenssees which gave them money a little more info about what and when something will be done. Inform us periodically about progress. Too mmany ppl are fed up with the no dates policy, considering that TSE is always
pusehd back, and it already takes a bit too long in devlopment.
3. Improve a bit it;s PR generally toward licensees.
4. Nevery employee double standards with its licensses. If a "associate" like Spilman drags my name in dirt, he should be warned as I was. I recon this is a personal "demand".


I guess now, despite my bad ugly english , those bullet points will make clear what I beleive will bring a some peace of mind to some licensees, and make them feel OK, instead of arrogant answers of "when is done" which only aggravates the feeling of a minority of licensses to the point they are fed up.

#92 I think no one can disagree with what Pat Wilson just said.

#93 No, Pat Wilson is perfectly right. A good and objective point of view

#94 Well, GFX was researched at GG, and it has it's flaws. The research started with a vertex buffer manager, evolved into a state manager + vertex buffer manager, and that was done for the nVidia Marble Blast FX demo at GDC 2k3. That summer I fleshed it out into GFX, and it has been evolving since then.

#95 I'm having fun with TSE on Air Ace.

I dont know, I just find the whole idea of someone feeling like they "OWN" a product just because they bought a license to some code kind of objectionable.

Of course, its not exactly new, after seeing fans of my games in the past speaking like we're personally dissing them when we change even the smallest feature in the game seems to me that people are generally speaking a bit mental.

I dont recall ever seeing anyone from GG (those are the guys who actually know right?) claiming that they created any technology they didnt. Nobody from GG for instance ever claimed that they invented a chunked LOD scheme for terrain rendering. So why are you bringing it up? like somehow GG is responsible for what others say about thier software? If I said you were a 57 year old woman with a beard would it make it true? How does that support your argument in any way?

Dan: seriously, you need to work on the social skills. If I had a student writing the things you've written above, I'd be embarrased. It's like you cant seperate some kind of dislike for people who like TSE from the actual facts. Obviously you have some way to go before maturity but I think even teenagers can be expected to be generally curteous and sensible cant they?

As many of the balanced individuals above have pointed out, EA is a "take it for what it is" kind of deal. It is what it is and by getting the EA license you have NOT aquired the rights to any further development. Basically you got what you paid for, like it or not you DID get the source code you paid for. Anything further on from that is not actually a requirement (although there is I guess a legal requirement that when the final version ships the EA people save some money).

You can either let it eat you up inside and try starting flame wars and frankly rude and purile attempts at being "tough" or you can just shut up now and save us all some life?

I guess I'm perpetuating this thread myself, but if it were ME reading it at GG, I'd have moderated the thread (i.e. killed it) by now.

By the way, this is in part a slightly more subtle attempt at flame-bait.. how did I do? I fully expect a nice "you suxxor" reply now thanks!!!

#96 >> Dan: seriously, you need to work on the social skills.

Yes, im fully aware of this. On the other hand, dont be embarassed. I recall threads on this board where GG employees used words as tough as mine, I think the guys was Jeff Tunnel, whithout any consideration and respect. Your fellow associate Spilman spreads missinformation over this board. Others good guys here jump on anyone which just says a bad thing about GG and TSE., using words to descrive a minority which dont like the TSE policy like "morons" and other such nice stuff. Dont be surprised I get tough and rude.

So, Phil, why dont you moderate a bit the other social failures on this boards, besides me, regardless they are part of the crowd following the gospell of TSE, your fellow assciates which spread missinformation on purpose, the ppl which cant code a line of code but pretend they know everything.

In general, dont be surprised at flame wars and extremly rude conversations on the Internet. Its just the way things where and theyll always be.

>> Basically you got what you paid for, like it or not you DID get the source code you paid for.

I dont think this works this way. A lawyer can tell us more. I did bought the rights to the final code base by acquiring a EA. You see, laws in Europe are a bit different, but I would expect laws of USA would give you legal right to the finsihed product as well. And even if I got what I paied for, I have the right to criticize what I got, and also the timeframe of TSE delivery. I beleive its devel is crawling.

Phil, look at my first 2 posts. Before I was provoked. They contain only my (and those of a minority of licensses , but which is continously growing) feelings about how much time TSE is taken, and my personal oppinion about the TSE technology. I guess automatically you are a bad guy when you talk against TSE and
GG policys ? Like it or not Phil, I have the right to express my views.

The next thing somebody stats to call the minority i represent and thinks that TSE takes to long "morons"
You seem a equilbrated guy, Phil, who started the flame war ? I or the TSE worshipers community. I did
bring up a sensitive subject indeed, and maybe not in the most of diplomatic terms. But the rest Phil, the rest was done by this community as a whole.

>> Obviously you have some way to go before maturity

Well, so does 90% of this comunity. Probably even you, since you did not let this thread die and continued to post in it.

>> As many of the balanced individuals

Huh ? I think I only seen 3 balanced persons which where part of this thread. Anton , David and Stephen Zepp.

---------------------
Editing note: No offense to all ppl, I speak about the main players. I did not include ppl with brief apparitions
---------------------

>> invented a chunked LOD scheme for terrain rendering. So why are you bringing it up?

Because is the right thing to do. The mass of worshipeers which jumps at the minority which thinks TSE is taking way too much with words like "moron" nd beleives GG did all reesearch and devel must be moderated somehow.

>> "you suxxor" reply now thanks!!!

You dont. You have a sensitive enough post . But you should be prepared to know that it takes 2 to start a war. Even a flame war on internet. It would help you in your teacher carier to keep an open mind to the ideeas of other ppl and their oppinions.

#97 It's funny, I was saying to the missus the other day that if my company ever gets beyond a one man effort that I would allow my employees to speak freely like GG seem to do. I said this after reading the Tribes post that was linked on the forum here. There was Tim Aste swearing away like a trooper with no censure from anybody. Honest, open and real was the way it appeared to me.

But it does seem a bit strange then, that Dan gets whipped for being honest himself.

I actually have admiration for him for sticking to his guns. It's very hard to stay with it when you get tons of sh*t rained on you for speaking your mind. Yes, he invites it by his language, but I think some people willfully ignore his message in order to get some sort of pat on the back for being holy.

Anyway, I *hope* GG have taken the useful stuff from amongst the noise on this thread, and will do something for us all on the communication and small releases score.
Kudos for what they are doing and have done so far. Just that tiny bit more in the responsibility department would go a long way to calming things.

Heh, look what I found on a *different* thread. I can't believe this info wasn't added to this one! I think this relates to the post about all talking with the same voice.
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=42152
Dave.

#98 >> there was Tim Aste swearing away like a trooper

There is a lot of double standards and hypocrisy involved here. Jeff Tunnel have the right to call other ppl thiefs, whatevr other employee to swear, Spilman has the right to spread missinformation ,
Stephen Zepp only warns ppl like me and not his coworkers or individuals like Spilman, and ppl like professor
Carlisle only see the social failing behaviour of a minority, not the same behaviour to some of GG staff, his fellow associates like Spilman, and other social failures. Of course, he lacks maturity to be objective.

I sent a e-mail today to Stephen Zepp requiring to remove my registration totally from this board, so I cant even log into it, and other ppl can refere to me as a member of this comunity. I am only sorry because I will miss the oportunity to maybe talk more with individuals like Anton Bursch and David Blake, who shine among the crowd.

The reason for this is that I do not want to be part of a cumunity which employees double standards, nor be potential subject of moderation from moderators which do the same.

I will continue to tell ppl both about TSE lack of substance and progress, good things in TGE architecture, and defned the engine where is bashed whithout reasons, but most of all I will tell everybody about the double standards shameless employeed in this comunity, and the defense they get from the moderators of this boards and ppl like proffesor Carlisle, which only seems capable to see a single side of a coin.

Il go and help Eric Lengyel develope his engine with advices and bug reports, and corrections to features, he seems much more interested than GG to build a next generation 3D engine, and it always listen to the oppinions of his licensees, and the set of features they require for developeing their games, and even to architectural and design advices regarding his engine. He is there daily, helping us, listening to us, and delivering more features than you usualy do with TSE in a year. And he is a single person. GG staff you should learn a thing or two from that guy. Regardless if you admitt it or not.

Maybe Ill write a geo clipmap terrain for C4 engine, I like the TSE wast expanses. Or maybe Ill even integrate Chunk Lod in C4, since is public domain.

GG, you have a problem. Regardless if you admitt it or not, there is a growing number of ppl fed up with your apparent lack of progress on TSE, its bugs, and the time it takes. You accept it or not, its not my problem anymore.

#99 Thank you for doing all of us such a huge favor.

#100 I think the main problem you run into Dan is just in the WAY you say things. It's not necessarily always the things you say, but the way you say them, or the way you manage to cram them in at every opportunity. People ask about something totally unrelated and you use it as an opportunity to bitch. Re-reading through this thread someone asked a simple question and you used it to get back into the same thing you've said in numerous other threads (and I don't entirely disagree with you on some of this stuff). You then out of nowhere started harping about people on this forum acting as if TSE is a revolutionary technology, yadda yada yadda.

It's like we're all a bunch of students sitting in a classroom before the professor arrives. And every time anyone brings up anything you say, "I don't know about that. It's like with TSE, it's borderline long overdo, Garage Games is stealing our money and the technology is just stuff that other people did before." It gets old after a while.