Movies made in torque?
by AzraelK · in General Discussion · 03/21/2002 (10:02 am) · 37 replies
Im having this idea for a new project to create machinima (www.machinima.net) and in game real time movies for torque, I just wanted to know if someone is doing the same, or if you know a good technique for this, comments etc.
Just so everyone is in the same page, machinima is considered a new art form, is the developing of cgi short medium and full length films, using game engines.
The best examples of machinima are the metal gear solid 1, 2 intros the shenmue series intros, and the quake 3 movies that can be found at the site I told you a while ago.
If someone (besides me) is interested in this project I will post it here so we can start working on it! =)
Reply or email me if you are interested.
Just so everyone is in the same page, machinima is considered a new art form, is the developing of cgi short medium and full length films, using game engines.
The best examples of machinima are the metal gear solid 1, 2 intros the shenmue series intros, and the quake 3 movies that can be found at the site I told you a while ago.
If someone (besides me) is interested in this project I will post it here so we can start working on it! =)
Reply or email me if you are interested.
#22
THIS MIGHT BE IRRELIVENT DUE TO THE LACK OF INTREST CAUSED BY THE ARGUEMENT ABOVE.
I have always liked this idea. Just about a year ago there was some news, or a forum post about this. I would suggest getting in contact with a GG employee to find out if someone has taken steps to using the Torque Engine. I did a search and came up with nothing useful. As for those of you that think machinima isn't cool, you should check out Giants. I think this is the most entertaining machinima I have seen yet.
04/10/2002 (10:11 am)
---TO: BurningRose Studios---THIS MIGHT BE IRRELIVENT DUE TO THE LACK OF INTREST CAUSED BY THE ARGUEMENT ABOVE.
I have always liked this idea. Just about a year ago there was some news, or a forum post about this. I would suggest getting in contact with a GG employee to find out if someone has taken steps to using the Torque Engine. I did a search and came up with nothing useful. As for those of you that think machinima isn't cool, you should check out Giants. I think this is the most entertaining machinima I have seen yet.
#23
I agree that swapping between gameplay and render cinematics is wrong (while the user is playing in the level), it absolutely distrupts the flow of the game. This is part of my point where machinima works out well because the player can be quickly told something that relates to the level without wrecking the flow of things. But if you are trying to move the story of the game along and achieve this while drawing the player deeper and deeper (and more emotionally) into the game itself, rendered cinematics are the way to go.
As powerful as a game engine is, it will be a long time before game engines will be powerful enough to compare to what a talented and knowledgable person (or team) can do with 3D software. But this is just my personal opinion. The real clincher in this debate over rendered vs machinima won't likely come until we can compare the two head-to-head from the same storyboard and work.
I guess I will end here because anything else that I could say would essentially just be babbling and reiterating what has already been said.
Logan
04/10/2002 (10:33 am)
Jeff, I suspect that both of us are going to figh tooth-and-nail for our respective sides of this debate and thus our discussion will probably not sway anyone to one side or the other, but here is my response.I agree that swapping between gameplay and render cinematics is wrong (while the user is playing in the level), it absolutely distrupts the flow of the game. This is part of my point where machinima works out well because the player can be quickly told something that relates to the level without wrecking the flow of things. But if you are trying to move the story of the game along and achieve this while drawing the player deeper and deeper (and more emotionally) into the game itself, rendered cinematics are the way to go.
As powerful as a game engine is, it will be a long time before game engines will be powerful enough to compare to what a talented and knowledgable person (or team) can do with 3D software. But this is just my personal opinion. The real clincher in this debate over rendered vs machinima won't likely come until we can compare the two head-to-head from the same storyboard and work.
I guess I will end here because anything else that I could say would essentially just be babbling and reiterating what has already been said.
Logan
#24
If I'm going to play a game that uses non-interactive parts to further the storyline, I want to be rewarded for sitting there. I don't want to see more of the same graphics I've seen throughout the game, except that I can't do anything with them.
My favourite example of this sorta thing is FF7 - I would play that game, knowing that a cut-scene could be just round the corner. Furthermore, it was a cut-scene that was going to leave me thinking "Well damn, that was cool".
FF8 did things better (IMNSHO ;)) - the game flowed into the cut-scenes and back out again, it became sorta fun to try and spot exactly when the transition occured :)
FPS games are quite different to RPGs though, but I will say this - if the action is too intense to cut to a cinematic, what makes you think a scripted sequence will do any better. I am assuming here that the player is forced to either watch or skip the sequence before continuing...
On the topic of movies done with the Torque Game Engine, I think it would be an interesting idea. I don't think they'll ever make it to the big screen, but I will watch them :)
04/10/2002 (11:28 am)
As far as the argument between in-game and pre-rendered cinematics goes, I am for pre-rendered.If I'm going to play a game that uses non-interactive parts to further the storyline, I want to be rewarded for sitting there. I don't want to see more of the same graphics I've seen throughout the game, except that I can't do anything with them.
My favourite example of this sorta thing is FF7 - I would play that game, knowing that a cut-scene could be just round the corner. Furthermore, it was a cut-scene that was going to leave me thinking "Well damn, that was cool".
FF8 did things better (IMNSHO ;)) - the game flowed into the cut-scenes and back out again, it became sorta fun to try and spot exactly when the transition occured :)
FPS games are quite different to RPGs though, but I will say this - if the action is too intense to cut to a cinematic, what makes you think a scripted sequence will do any better. I am assuming here that the player is forced to either watch or skip the sequence before continuing...
On the topic of movies done with the Torque Game Engine, I think it would be an interesting idea. I don't think they'll ever make it to the big screen, but I will watch them :)
#25
04/10/2002 (12:01 pm)
FF 10 did this the best. 
#26
Since the games I want to make need to download over slow (cable) and slower (56K) connections, I just don't see much use for pre-rendered movies or non-interactives.
I guess I'm a game maker, not a film maker.
Jeff Tunnell GG
04/10/2002 (2:45 pm)
Maybe I'm just too tied to my delivery mechanism. I absolutely love the new animated films produced on computers. They can take me to places I have never imagined much better than hand drawn cell animation can. But, I don't see any use for them in a game.Since the games I want to make need to download over slow (cable) and slower (56K) connections, I just don't see much use for pre-rendered movies or non-interactives.
I guess I'm a game maker, not a film maker.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#27
However, especially in Torque, prerendered does have it's place. One example is city scenes. Now I know you can make cities in Torque, though it's not easy. However, if you want a smooth cutscene of a beautiful city with all the intracacies you want (maybe you'd like flying cars, tiny spires, and many different types of buildings), it's just not logical to use machinima, especially if you never reach this city ingame.
Similarly, in my game there is a HUGE spacecraft that is still on the ground. After one mission involving it, you destroy it. We've opted to not do with with machinima (allthough we're using machinima for many things in the game) because we just don't think it'll be as impressive and speedy (think of allllll those particles) if done ingame. Also, this is a turning point in the game, and includes a long narration. Prerendered cutscenes allow us to show the destruction we want, jump back and fourth between areas, and make the cutscene both a reward and a very different part of the game. At least for our game, a narration is not normal...so throwing it ingame, even with machinima, would be as jarring as switching from machinima to prerendered will be, if not more.
As for someone's comment about not having a cross-platform movie program, Quicktime is both for mac and pc. At some point we'll probably be trying to work this into the engine to play prerendered cutscenes...we'll be sure to put up a resource when we do.
Also, anyone planning on making ANY type of cutscene should head over to gamasutra.com and check out their tutorials on cutscenes. I've read at least three there, and they're very interesting and useful...check em out!
-Evan
04/10/2002 (7:02 pm)
I think that machinima is an excellent thing and will continue to become more part of games. It does save space, it keeps the player immersed, and it makes things less confusing ("who's that guy? oh, the main character...wow, he looks different when he's 20,000,000 polys!").However, especially in Torque, prerendered does have it's place. One example is city scenes. Now I know you can make cities in Torque, though it's not easy. However, if you want a smooth cutscene of a beautiful city with all the intracacies you want (maybe you'd like flying cars, tiny spires, and many different types of buildings), it's just not logical to use machinima, especially if you never reach this city ingame.
Similarly, in my game there is a HUGE spacecraft that is still on the ground. After one mission involving it, you destroy it. We've opted to not do with with machinima (allthough we're using machinima for many things in the game) because we just don't think it'll be as impressive and speedy (think of allllll those particles) if done ingame. Also, this is a turning point in the game, and includes a long narration. Prerendered cutscenes allow us to show the destruction we want, jump back and fourth between areas, and make the cutscene both a reward and a very different part of the game. At least for our game, a narration is not normal...so throwing it ingame, even with machinima, would be as jarring as switching from machinima to prerendered will be, if not more.
As for someone's comment about not having a cross-platform movie program, Quicktime is both for mac and pc. At some point we'll probably be trying to work this into the engine to play prerendered cutscenes...we'll be sure to put up a resource when we do.
Also, anyone planning on making ANY type of cutscene should head over to gamasutra.com and check out their tutorials on cutscenes. I've read at least three there, and they're very interesting and useful...check em out!
-Evan
#28
In-game cutscenes have quickly replaced prerendered stuff mainly because it requires less money to make, and ends up being much more interactive than any prerendered stuff could.
My complaint was that movie cutscenes always seemed out of place. Going from low resolution 40 polygon models to some amazing looking thing really ends my chances of suspending disbelief, and I realize "gah, this is just a game".
04/10/2002 (7:43 pm)
FF7 needed cutscenes because the engine sucked. What does cloud have, 30 polys including his spikey hair?In-game cutscenes have quickly replaced prerendered stuff mainly because it requires less money to make, and ends up being much more interactive than any prerendered stuff could.
My complaint was that movie cutscenes always seemed out of place. Going from low resolution 40 polygon models to some amazing looking thing really ends my chances of suspending disbelief, and I realize "gah, this is just a game".
#29
I think i have mentioned this earlier but here goes again, of course the quality of a 3d raytracer with raycasting and preproduction effects is quite hard to compete with (specially without a sweet geforce 3 by your side) but machinima IS a form of CGI, and CGI movies are considered ART as a matter of fact the academy just gave an award for "best animated film" to a CGI movie this year (and all nominated films were CGI btw).
However Machinima is a form easier to access to independent groups such as us. (low budgetted that is) so if Garage Games stands for independent game makers , why not stand for independent CGI film makers as well? (We NEED the tool for our games anyway)
Torque+Machinima.
think about it.
I dont know, perhaps I DO have a bit of a film maker on my blood. =)
04/11/2002 (10:50 am)
Wow Im really pleased that this topic has raisen this much interest (in my opinion when something raises this much attention you HAVE to give it a shot) anyway I think everyones opinion is valid, sure there are good and bad sides on this project, but I believe is something torque needs, simply because we cant afford waste space in prerrendered movies for our internet downloads, if we add the option to actually make our own standalone movies on the package as well (as realtime or divx avi) I really see a great project in the works here. =)I think i have mentioned this earlier but here goes again, of course the quality of a 3d raytracer with raycasting and preproduction effects is quite hard to compete with (specially without a sweet geforce 3 by your side) but machinima IS a form of CGI, and CGI movies are considered ART as a matter of fact the academy just gave an award for "best animated film" to a CGI movie this year (and all nominated films were CGI btw).
However Machinima is a form easier to access to independent groups such as us. (low budgetted that is) so if Garage Games stands for independent game makers , why not stand for independent CGI film makers as well? (We NEED the tool for our games anyway)
Torque+Machinima.
think about it.
I dont know, perhaps I DO have a bit of a film maker on my blood. =)
#30
Jeff Tunnell GG
04/11/2002 (11:28 am)
OK. So somebody should step up to the plate and add some simple camera capabilities to Mark's mission editor. That will get us started.Jeff Tunnell GG
#31
Now For a long time, I have wanted to make an engine dedicate to Machinema (sp?). Make full length CG movies for consoles, all rendered in real time. And I'd STILL love to do it. I think it would be great! Thenn one could add in interactive elements. OR multiple story paths. (ie. Pause the movie, then use the controller to go to a different room and see another conversation taknig place.)
Hmm, I'm kinda brainstorming this but that'd be cool...
05/27/2002 (9:34 am)
Okay, so this thread ended 2 months ago, but I know I posted a question about in-game cut scenes a while back and got ignored. I personally have enjoyed good in-engine cutscenes. I like pre-rendered too, but as technology advances, Real-time scenes impress me more. Why? Cause they are real time. I wanted Ridge Racer 5, just for the opening. Ai just walking down the street. What was impressive? It was being rendered by the PS2 graphix chip. I'd also have to agree about MGS. It was simply mind-blowing what was done. Though the truth is, that takes Polygons. And PC games aren't focused on Polygons, but textures. Finally PCs are catching up to consoles in Polycounts so they can make characters that look as good as CG. But Jedi Knight 2, the characters weren't made up of the same poly count as say, Shenmue on Dreamcast, Also it's easier with consoles cause the maker knows how it's going to run. PC's are too varied in performance to really gaudge this. Now For a long time, I have wanted to make an engine dedicate to Machinema (sp?). Make full length CG movies for consoles, all rendered in real time. And I'd STILL love to do it. I think it would be great! Thenn one could add in interactive elements. OR multiple story paths. (ie. Pause the movie, then use the controller to go to a different room and see another conversation taknig place.)
Hmm, I'm kinda brainstorming this but that'd be cool...
#32
Anyway...
I disaprove of using textures to make up for a lack of polygones, something which Q3 engine games in particular are guilty of. This is almost certainly due to the recent cheap ram years making geforce texture memory huge.
Anyway, I think a level using smaller textures and more polygones is nicer.
05/27/2002 (9:43 am)
I think it's wrong (and extremely dangerous) to say that the PC is "catching up" with consoles in terms of polygons. I'm not sure that there's been a single console launch (except maybe the xbox, which was quickly superceded by the 4600) where the machine had better 3d capability than the best card for the pc at the time, and wasn't superceded by the average card in less than 6 months.Anyway...
I disaprove of using textures to make up for a lack of polygones, something which Q3 engine games in particular are guilty of. This is almost certainly due to the recent cheap ram years making geforce texture memory huge.
Anyway, I think a level using smaller textures and more polygones is nicer.
#33
05/27/2002 (10:33 am)
Yet again theres more research on programs. I'm surprised some of you has heard of Shenmue (my FAVORATE game.) The cut-scenes in that movie were nicely done. I don't know the program that made them. I really got moods out of them. I'm not a c++ master or anything, but I know alot about making movies such as flash or 3dmax. Moods set the tone of the game like say...music. Very important. As long as your point gets across in a touching way, if I'm aloud to say as a guy, then good job. FF 10 movies are amazing also.
#34
FROM A TV ANIMATOR's POINT OF VIEW:
Can Torque be used for Virtual sets? wit GamePlayers as the actors in the "studio"? your ideas or concerns...?
08/25/2005 (3:33 pm)
ATTENTION:FROM A TV ANIMATOR's POINT OF VIEW:
Can Torque be used for Virtual sets? wit GamePlayers as the actors in the "studio"? your ideas or concerns...?
#35
08/25/2005 (3:39 pm)
Ps... tying in with LIVE video... via a modeled wall "skinned" ChromoKey Green.
#36
08/26/2005 (1:48 am)
Sounds very doable.
#37
Me and David Grace made a Torque Machinima Tool for live machinima using TGE for the Ill Clan, and they produced a commercial using it. Very cool.
I just got a green light to "announce it". Will do a proper .plan or something soon to write about it.
See the movie here:
http://www.stolena3.com/archives/russian_mission_cutscene_take196.mov
08/26/2005 (6:11 am)
Its already been done. Talk to the Ill Clan (they are also presenting some of the stuff at IGC).Me and David Grace made a Torque Machinima Tool for live machinima using TGE for the Ill Clan, and they produced a commercial using it. Very cool.
I just got a green light to "announce it". Will do a proper .plan or something soon to write about it.
See the movie here:
http://www.stolena3.com/archives/russian_mission_cutscene_take196.mov
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
I have to totally disagree with you. Rendered cut scenes, IMHO, are dead. With the power of current and future video cards and computers, the idea of playing a pre-rendered movie simply does not make sense. Have you seen some of the latest on-the-fly movies? They look way better than most prerendered cut scenes did just a year or so ago.
To me, the jarring visual difference between the game you are playing and a prerendered scene really disrupts the suspension of disbelief in a game. In game non interactives are just a better way to go.
Jeff Tunnell GG