Movies made in torque?
by AzraelK · in General Discussion · 03/21/2002 (10:02 am) · 37 replies
Im having this idea for a new project to create machinima (www.machinima.net) and in game real time movies for torque, I just wanted to know if someone is doing the same, or if you know a good technique for this, comments etc.
Just so everyone is in the same page, machinima is considered a new art form, is the developing of cgi short medium and full length films, using game engines.
The best examples of machinima are the metal gear solid 1, 2 intros the shenmue series intros, and the quake 3 movies that can be found at the site I told you a while ago.
If someone (besides me) is interested in this project I will post it here so we can start working on it! =)
Reply or email me if you are interested.
Just so everyone is in the same page, machinima is considered a new art form, is the developing of cgi short medium and full length films, using game engines.
The best examples of machinima are the metal gear solid 1, 2 intros the shenmue series intros, and the quake 3 movies that can be found at the site I told you a while ago.
If someone (besides me) is interested in this project I will post it here so we can start working on it! =)
Reply or email me if you are interested.
#2
Just on the big pile of todo stuff along with all my other works :))
BTW: its a great tool for the machinema once we solve the problems of content creation.
Phil.
03/21/2002 (10:35 am)
Yes, I'm working on Machinema production stuff.Just on the big pile of todo stuff along with all my other works :))
BTW: its a great tool for the machinema once we solve the problems of content creation.
Phil.
#3
Those titles and the realtime scenes, in deus ex, zelda 64 ARE machinima too. And yes there is awful machinima too, (just like they are awful movies), but they are also very good machinima movies out there.
(Just imagine if the lumiere had decided not to invent
cinema just because someday they would use it to make awful movies, we wouldnt have any movies at all!)
03/21/2002 (10:35 am)
Hmmm.. the idea is not to create Machinima , but to create a product that can create machinima movies for torque games and also for entertainment. Something like a (functional) microsoft movie maker.Those titles and the realtime scenes, in deus ex, zelda 64 ARE machinima too. And yes there is awful machinima too, (just like they are awful movies), but they are also very good machinima movies out there.
(Just imagine if the lumiere had decided not to invent
cinema just because someday they would use it to make awful movies, we wouldnt have any movies at all!)
#4
Sorry, just venting, it's getting very annoying.
03/21/2002 (7:07 pm)
Sir Matt has spoken. Machinima is a bad idea. Better not do it unless you want to upset the gods.Sorry, just venting, it's getting very annoying.
#5
Let's work this out in private, because arguing in the forums isn't good for GG's image.
Email me Jim
03/21/2002 (7:20 pm)
I removed this post. We don't need to argue.Let's work this out in private, because arguing in the forums isn't good for GG's image.
Email me Jim
#6
Some things are best left unsaid. Didn't your mommy and daddy teach you that "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." I think you need to revert back to that rule. If it's constructive criticism, fine. If you offer ways to fix the problems you find, then that's constructive criticism. If you simply rag on how shit something is, then that's just plain criticism, and it has no place on GarageGames. It's an attitude like yours that makes people afraid to ask questions or post their thoughts and feelings, cause they know damn well that you're gonna be there, probably with nothing good to say at all.
03/21/2002 (7:32 pm)
I'm not the only one who's "annoyed" with you Matt...I'm the only one who really cares to come forward with it. There's a line where you have to draw when sharing your opinion. Yeah, I'm all for freedom of speech, you abuse that right. Every single message I go through that you reply to, you NEVER have anything good to say. It's always "this sucks" or "yeah, it's crap" or "it could be better" or "i've seen better." If I had the time, I'd compile all of the threads I've seen, but that's just about every thread.Some things are best left unsaid. Didn't your mommy and daddy teach you that "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." I think you need to revert back to that rule. If it's constructive criticism, fine. If you offer ways to fix the problems you find, then that's constructive criticism. If you simply rag on how shit something is, then that's just plain criticism, and it has no place on GarageGames. It's an attitude like yours that makes people afraid to ask questions or post their thoughts and feelings, cause they know damn well that you're gonna be there, probably with nothing good to say at all.
#7
If you got a problem with me, please contact me.
03/21/2002 (7:44 pm)
While I know I've annoyed some people, you're the only one who's consistantly been on my back.If you got a problem with me, please contact me.
#8
*ahem*
This would be a very useful thing to have for many games, whether or not you think machinima is an artform or not. They don't have to be fantastically-produced scenes such as MGS2, just something fairly basic like GTA3 that propels the story along, or just provides a break from the killing/collecting/swimming/flying/whatever-ing-your-game-has.
As to actually doing it.. hmm, big project..
03/21/2002 (8:05 pm)
Don't make me come up there! I'll be flicking that light switch on and off!*ahem*
This would be a very useful thing to have for many games, whether or not you think machinima is an artform or not. They don't have to be fantastically-produced scenes such as MGS2, just something fairly basic like GTA3 that propels the story along, or just provides a break from the killing/collecting/swimming/flying/whatever-ing-your-game-has.
As to actually doing it.. hmm, big project..
#9
I'm not going to say any more. Maybe I'll wait till someone else says something. I've said what I said because I too like to voice my opinion, and right wrongs, and do justice, for the sake of this beautiful planet! Maybe others just don't want to waste their time getting in an argument, etc. I don't think I'll bother saying anything. It's impossible to get anything through to you. I've said what I've said, so take it or leave it...and I'm sure you'll do the latter and continue with your old ways.
03/21/2002 (8:08 pm)
No, I'm not mad at you for why you think I am. I assure you that I've shared the same opinion of you from the beginning up until now, I just figured I would have to ignore it for the sake of blank blank in order to keep everyone happy.I'm not going to say any more. Maybe I'll wait till someone else says something. I've said what I said because I too like to voice my opinion, and right wrongs, and do justice, for the sake of this beautiful planet! Maybe others just don't want to waste their time getting in an argument, etc. I don't think I'll bother saying anything. It's impossible to get anything through to you. I've said what I've said, so take it or leave it...and I'm sure you'll do the latter and continue with your old ways.
#10
You don't like the number 6? It's my favorite freakin number. That's it Matt, You've made my list.
lol. It's funny because 6 is actually my favorite number. I just got a Caps jersey with it on it. =)
Ah well, I hope through time and perseverance to change how you feel about the number 6. I can still dream.
On a side note (and maybe on topic for a chance), I really like the idea of using Torque to make movies. While it' snot exactly game related, I've seen lots of cool movie shorts using techniques like that.
03/21/2002 (8:12 pm)
God Damn It!You don't like the number 6? It's my favorite freakin number. That's it Matt, You've made my list.
lol. It's funny because 6 is actually my favorite number. I just got a Caps jersey with it on it. =)
Ah well, I hope through time and perseverance to change how you feel about the number 6. I can still dream.
On a side note (and maybe on topic for a chance), I really like the idea of using Torque to make movies. While it' snot exactly game related, I've seen lots of cool movie shorts using techniques like that.
#11
Torque-powered cutscenes could be considered important because:
a) AFAIK we don't have a cross-platform movie playing component
b) with the focus on ESD rather than games on CD, the smaller we can get our data the better.
I know a) isn't such a big deal, it's just a matter of effort, but b) seems pretty important to me.
03/21/2002 (8:12 pm)
In a desperate attempt to keep this thread on track, I'll continue..Torque-powered cutscenes could be considered important because:
a) AFAIK we don't have a cross-platform movie playing component
b) with the focus on ESD rather than games on CD, the smaller we can get our data the better.
I know a) isn't such a big deal, it's just a matter of effort, but b) seems pretty important to me.
#12
03/21/2002 (8:22 pm)
I think it would also be cool to be able to do cut-scenes in game easily. Especially for RPG oriented games. It would be cool to have cut-scenes in the middle of the game like in Deus Ex, or Max Payne.
#13
Torque needs for decent machinima:
1. Get rails/paths/nodes to organize what's going on on screen and it's movement.
2. Get demo recording and playback working well.
3. Scene scripting entities (timed triggers, camera transitions like fade, etc)
It's a very important tool in pretty much anything with single-player, but I haven't seen a good one aside from cut scenes in games.
When I think machinima I think actual short movies made solely with demos and pre recorded sounds. All I can remember is this one called "The Mad Bomber" or something, that was for Quake 2. Some kid trying to sound like Steven Segal saying cheesy lines, then firing a blaster at a switch which dropped his friend into the lava (his friend was evil... duh!)
Heh, this could be an interesting medium but it's still so early into development that it's just cut-scenes.
I know there's some "epic" one that's like 600 megs, but I think it was anime based and well... It's supposed to be good but I hate anime. I've seen a few dozen of the demo movies, and at least the Mad Bomber made me laugh. The others just made me wanna cry :p
There's an intersting project... make a movie in the game. Wouldn't require heavy programming knowledge, just some voice acting basic entities and a working demo system.
03/21/2002 (9:43 pm)
What does AFAIK mean? I never bothered looking it up!Torque needs for decent machinima:
1. Get rails/paths/nodes to organize what's going on on screen and it's movement.
2. Get demo recording and playback working well.
3. Scene scripting entities (timed triggers, camera transitions like fade, etc)
It's a very important tool in pretty much anything with single-player, but I haven't seen a good one aside from cut scenes in games.
When I think machinima I think actual short movies made solely with demos and pre recorded sounds. All I can remember is this one called "The Mad Bomber" or something, that was for Quake 2. Some kid trying to sound like Steven Segal saying cheesy lines, then firing a blaster at a switch which dropped his friend into the lava (his friend was evil... duh!)
Heh, this could be an interesting medium but it's still so early into development that it's just cut-scenes.
I know there's some "epic" one that's like 600 megs, but I think it was anime based and well... It's supposed to be good but I hate anime. I've seen a few dozen of the demo movies, and at least the Mad Bomber made me laugh. The others just made me wanna cry :p
There's an intersting project... make a movie in the game. Wouldn't require heavy programming knowledge, just some voice acting basic entities and a working demo system.
#15
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/24/2002 (10:48 pm)
I think Machinima kicks butt, and I truly want to see Torque become the default mechanism to play Machinima movies. There are a bunch of reasons, but just one is that is will show off the TGE to many people that would otherwise not see it. More later. I just got back from GDC and need to catch up.Jeff Tunnell GG
#16
I magine somthing like this:
There would be a time slider/weel where you can set the time, and then take control of any character/object. Press record and play that actor like you want.
Then scroll back in time and take control of any other char you wanted to include and hit record. This could be done over and over again, recording one character at a time.
With multiple users logged in, several 'actors' could be recorded at once.
In edit mode, the appropriate text/audio could be added, as well as any visual effects, such as white out, fade out, vertigo zoom, camera controls, etc.
For the general public to use this, an ingame character animation editor would be extremly useful.
Setting the game to auto record the last 10 secs of the game would allow for a nice replay of e.g. death scenes.
I see tons of uses for this!
04/10/2002 (4:27 am)
A Film/cutscene editor would be awsome.I magine somthing like this:
There would be a time slider/weel where you can set the time, and then take control of any character/object. Press record and play that actor like you want.
Then scroll back in time and take control of any other char you wanted to include and hit record. This could be done over and over again, recording one character at a time.
With multiple users logged in, several 'actors' could be recorded at once.
In edit mode, the appropriate text/audio could be added, as well as any visual effects, such as white out, fade out, vertigo zoom, camera controls, etc.
For the general public to use this, an ingame character animation editor would be extremly useful.
Setting the game to auto record the last 10 secs of the game would allow for a nice replay of e.g. death scenes.
I see tons of uses for this!
#17
Just a random thought heh.
04/10/2002 (5:55 am)
Reading this I can't help but think that editor idea could be a fun game or pastime. Get some friends together go in and make a movie,comic or whatever. Just a random thought heh.
#18
04/10/2002 (7:22 am)
http://www.machinima.com/ 
#19
Machinima in my honest opinion has limited uses in a game. If you need to help move along a level or story element in the game without actually cutting the viewer away to a prerendered sequence, I think its a good use.
ie)I am chasing down the evil super villian with my "villianbuster2000" when I turn a corner and find my sidekick lying on the floor in a pool of blood, with his last dying breathe my sidekick tells me to take the left tunnel and to watch out because super villian has a new trick.
The negative drawbacks of machinima though are the fact that it is ugly, slow, boring, is nearly impossible to convey emotion across to the viewer, and you cannot gauge any mood from the scene because everything is static and cold.
Machinima has its place, but its place is to compliment Rendered Animations while in a game level.
That's my two cents on the topic.
Logan
Edit: Gamasutra has an article on this very same subject, just thought I would let people know in case they were interested.
04/10/2002 (7:39 am)
Since it does not look like anyone from the "art" area has made a comment here I go...Machinima in my honest opinion has limited uses in a game. If you need to help move along a level or story element in the game without actually cutting the viewer away to a prerendered sequence, I think its a good use.
ie)I am chasing down the evil super villian with my "villianbuster2000" when I turn a corner and find my sidekick lying on the floor in a pool of blood, with his last dying breathe my sidekick tells me to take the left tunnel and to watch out because super villian has a new trick.
The negative drawbacks of machinima though are the fact that it is ugly, slow, boring, is nearly impossible to convey emotion across to the viewer, and you cannot gauge any mood from the scene because everything is static and cold.
Machinima has its place, but its place is to compliment Rendered Animations while in a game level.
That's my two cents on the topic.
Logan
Edit: Gamasutra has an article on this very same subject, just thought I would let people know in case they were interested.
#20
I'm gonna throw in my two cents. I think that the only reason everyone has problems with machinima is because most of the groups that have done it so far have no concept of perspective, character development, pace, impact. Often it seems like they get the person standing closest to them to write the dialog and then are willing to have their closest relative do the voice acting. Shoot, even Final Fantasy dropped the ball with a $100 million dollar budget and the best 3-d artists in the world because they didn't understand these concepts.
I disagree that it is difficult to have emotional expression in machinima, as long as you are approaching it correctly. As a case study I think everyone should go grab a notebook and play through Metal Gear Solid again. (Play it on the Dreamcast with Bleam! if you get a chance. You will appreciate Kojima in a new way for how simple and yet beautiful that game is once you can actually see the textures.) Granted the voice acting was excellent in that game but the animation work was perfect. (I actually consider sound as EQUALLY important as the video or graphics and I think we all should. The sense of hearing is an amazing thing. Along with sight they are better together than apart. I know this is obvious, but no one seems to live it. Anyways..)
Now, sit down and write down how Kojima conveyed emotion in MSG. A head tilting down. A shoulder shrug. A pensive up-tilting of the chin. Even a moment of staggering hesitation. All of these things are done with a super-low poly count so don't tell me it can't be done with torque. Next look at the camera angles and dynamic edits, and sound overlays, and everything else you can learn from any book on movies you go pick up at your local Library. This is the best machinima I have ever seen because it did so much with so little. If you let it, it just might inspire you. I don't even think Kojima did as good a job with the new one on the PS2 as he did with the MGS on ps1.
I think that if we really want to develop as an independent and artistic community of game developers, we need to understand and implement this kind of story telling a lot more and enthusiastically than we do now.
04/10/2002 (9:57 am)
(I'm going to repost this is the general forum. I think this deserves more discussion away from the bickering seen above. I just wanted to get the attention of everyone who posted here since you guys and gals seem interested in it.)I'm gonna throw in my two cents. I think that the only reason everyone has problems with machinima is because most of the groups that have done it so far have no concept of perspective, character development, pace, impact. Often it seems like they get the person standing closest to them to write the dialog and then are willing to have their closest relative do the voice acting. Shoot, even Final Fantasy dropped the ball with a $100 million dollar budget and the best 3-d artists in the world because they didn't understand these concepts.
I disagree that it is difficult to have emotional expression in machinima, as long as you are approaching it correctly. As a case study I think everyone should go grab a notebook and play through Metal Gear Solid again. (Play it on the Dreamcast with Bleam! if you get a chance. You will appreciate Kojima in a new way for how simple and yet beautiful that game is once you can actually see the textures.) Granted the voice acting was excellent in that game but the animation work was perfect. (I actually consider sound as EQUALLY important as the video or graphics and I think we all should. The sense of hearing is an amazing thing. Along with sight they are better together than apart. I know this is obvious, but no one seems to live it. Anyways..)
Now, sit down and write down how Kojima conveyed emotion in MSG. A head tilting down. A shoulder shrug. A pensive up-tilting of the chin. Even a moment of staggering hesitation. All of these things are done with a super-low poly count so don't tell me it can't be done with torque. Next look at the camera angles and dynamic edits, and sound overlays, and everything else you can learn from any book on movies you go pick up at your local Library. This is the best machinima I have ever seen because it did so much with so little. If you let it, it just might inspire you. I don't even think Kojima did as good a job with the new one on the PS2 as he did with the MGS on ps1.
I think that if we really want to develop as an independent and artistic community of game developers, we need to understand and implement this kind of story telling a lot more and enthusiastically than we do now.
Torque Owner Matt W
Lol, Quake 2 had so many of these and all were so bad it made me want to actually watch a Steven Segal film to end the suffering. I don't think I've ever even heard of a decent machinima "film". I wouldn't really count Shenmue or Metal Gear Solid as machinima. They are games with "movie" elements. Machinima is a movie in a game... with little-no user-interactive gameplay. Hmm... actually that describes Shenmue and MGS2 perfectly.
I think the first thing you're going to need to do is get the demo record and playback working correctly if you want to do this. After that, it's all up to the content...