Realm wars related - may be a stupid question :)

#1 You can't make C code changes, but you can modify the scripting. Testing how a weapon works would be mostly in the scripting. If that helps.

#2 Thanks :) so the engine cant actually be added too, though you can script whats already there, add models effects etc? ( Speaking as a non-coder :) )

#3 If you're just learning chances are slim that your work would be used in the final project... afterall, other community folks would be better suited for the job.

As for the engine, the only people who will be able to look at the source are owners of the Torque engine. Other folks can edit the scripts, but I'm pretty sure this will be a team-based competition. Sure, we'll work together, but if someone can do something better it'd take their work over some guy just started scripting.

Your best bet for just getting started is to get the Torque engine and work with it and try to make a simple game on your own. I don't believe he community project is aimed at helping newbies produce a product. I believe it's goal is to create a high-quality product with input from the skilled members of the community.

#4 Matt, I never suggested that I wanted to contribute to the Realm Wars game?. I merely asked if I could gain some understanding of Torque using this demo, and then build my own game when I license the engine; if I find after experimentation that it is the engine that I want to work with....

#5 You can play around with the scripting as much as you like though. That's what I did before using the engine code in any way. Just dropping in new models and creating a few new weapons for experimentation shouldn't be too difficult. Try before you buy:) $100 is cheap for what the engine can already do. I think it's worth it.

#6 Script won't tell you anything about the feasability of a project.

You're better off shooting out the idea to the people around here because non-coders either assume that some fairly easy idea is impossible, or an impossible idea is easy. Usually the latter.

Just post on a new thread what you are going for (in general terms so no worries about theft if ideas... which you shouldn't worry about because everyone here already has an idea they like the most) and we'll try to tell you if it's viable with the Torque engine.

Chances are it is, but with script alone there really isn't much you're going to be doing to test the limits of the engine. So tell us what you're going for and we can tell you if it's viable...

#7 ok here goes. Its nothing unique I know, but its what I want to play. A platoon vrs platoon sized combat game based around different military scenarios, initially WW2, my main influences being Close combat 2-5, operation flashpoint,even Day of Defeat. I want extra consideration to be given to freedom of movement/ character movement options, real world physics,perhaps even enforced team play as I want this to be as realistic an experience as it possibly can be. the kind of game where you and your squad are at one end of a street, the enemy at the other, and you spend 1/2 hour just peeping round the corner, totally engrossed in what the other side are up to, and what your next move should be. Ramoboesque antics should achieve absolutely nothing. The game should be targeted at clan communities, so that structured gameplay results. I would also like a command hierarchy where an overall leader gives commands to squad leaders who in turn relay info to the soldiers. I would love actual voice technology to be used here, like Roger Wilco is used in Flight simulators.

This, as I mentioned comes from somebody with no coding experience and little knowledge of the technical realities, but that doesn't matter so much, as most important of all is my desire to learn something and have fun :)

#8 Seems reasonable. The command structure you are talking about would take some programming. I believe there are some people working on the voice commands (don't quote me on that). 2 Platoon size teams should be manageable using the Torque engine. Putting a higher priority on tactics over "Rambo" style actions and respawning shouldn't be much of a problem either. Anyone else?

#9 There are quite a few tactical shooting games already being worked on, but you mention "forced teamplay" and "realistic" gameplay.

Both aren't fun.

no one wants to have to sneak in as a sniper and have to hide for 3 hours realtime in order to get a shot on the enemy leader. That's realistic... but not fun at all.

As for forced teamplay, that won't do much but scare away the people who just want to play a casual game. I don't know the last time you played online, but many people are pricks. They will do their best to ruin your team's chances of winning, and forcing teamplay will force you to have to rely on those gimps to win... it won't happen.

Basing a game around "competitive" play is also a problem because it will end up alienating the core audience: the casual gamer. Oh, and that's also the same reason the command structure won't work. "Hey you I don't know! Go do this now because I say so!" won't get much but a "F*** off!" response in most average games.

good luck to whatever you do, but keep in mind that just because it's something you might like doesn't make it something many others will like and want to pay you for.

#10 So Matt you worked in game market research?

I just curious, as to where you get this feelign you all ways know whats best. I watch you post every where, full of this arrogance.

I've looked at your profile, it says your doing computer science, now if that was a UK degree all it would mean is basic JAVA and C++ coding, but mostly you would be a software tech. While doing a degree in computing would give you all advance coding. This maybe different in the US. But thats not really my point. You not a 30+ year old programmer, who has been bumming around computer companies programming programs for most your life. Your a student, like most people here.

So in my very aggressive and over personal tone, I ask, "what makes you quilified to make those statements as if they were fact?"


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/looks at what hes written.

I seem quite mad and hostile there, maybe I am. I may even be an a**hole. But I think I'll post it anyway.

#11 Was I wrong in saying players dislike being forced into doing something?

It's tough to explain, but probably my best talent is the ability to "read" people. I've really been good with it for about 5 years or so, and have really honed it with my time on the internet. I can almost always tell the intent and tone of someone's actions (real life) or words (virtual)

How do I do it? I just put myself in their shoes and then think of the most logical and enjoyable (to them) response. While it's tough to explain, I can tell you that it hardly ever fails.

Even still, I'm not really going out on a limb here because I play games myself. I know that sometimes I want to play to win, and sometimes I just want to have fun. I know that's exactly how many people I play with in online games feel, so I think it's safe to assume that when a good number of "average" gamers feel the same thing then it'd reflect a good deal of the folks buying computer games.

As for market research, I've been doing testing and focus groups for Microsoft for the past year. I know what those developers are looking for in terms of feedback. I also know the dynamics of groups, media, and the consumer. Yeah, I've taken courses relating to it but it all still comes down to thinking what the other person wants. Logic!

If you think I'm incorrect in what I say I'd really prefer to hear it. Nothing I say is meant to be derogatory to anyone. Occasionally I knock their ideas, but it's not personal and I think everyone (cept for a few repeat offenders) have realized that. If I wanna insult you I'd start talking about your mom or dog or something :p

I think it's because I post a lot. I offer suggestions and opinions on things, and seeing that so often might make you think I'm arrogant. Afterall, I enjoy sharing my opinion or offering a helping hand now and then. That does show that I'm sure of myself, not arrogant. If I was arrogant I'd enjoy insulting people then ignoring requests for help. If you read what I post I haven't ever done that.

#12 I think if we worked with the "logic" of what gamers wanted it would = fps team play. Look at CS, URT amd Quake.

Also it is intresting that the biggest online community is in Korea (I think thats the right country) Which has more online gamers online at anyone time that either the US or Europe. They have a MMORPG that is extremly popular there too.

Damn I wish I could find the article, I think it must be in one of my old PC gamers.

My last post was rather angry, for no real reason. But you do come off as very arrogant, as I'm sure I do, but the fact is that sometimes when people ask for help they are not really asking for a lecture on your opinion of the games industry. After all what sells well is the crap that the PS churns out, clone after clone.

The industry is intrested in one think, thats pop. Cheap crap that sells well to kids. Thats why MMORPG's fail. By my logic. The problem with MMORPG is the need for a credit card (or debit card) most gamers fall aroudn the 16-18 year old area, meaning they do not have cards. So they need to ask their parents to pay for them.

This leeds me too belive that the problem with MMORPGs is there relationship with the cosumer base. Any MMORPG has a very small base compaired to a one time pay game, that can be bought with pocket money. MMORPG's appeal to mainly those gamers of the 20+ group or those with stupid parents who like spending money on MMORPG's for little 14 year old mike.

Anyway, I'm sorry for being so agrressive, but soemthign about the last few post I've read of yours got up my nose. Maybe its just stress.

#13 Matt, having been involved in the flight sim community for many years I know for certain that some people find certain game types 'fun' that your average casual gamer does not. These communities usually press for absolute realism, they are extremely dissapointed if they don't get it. What you find 'fun' others may not and vice versa; though Im well aware that what you say is partly true, and that my proposed game type would only ever appeal to a small niche community. On the other hand, many other extremely popular games that captures the imagination of the masses appeal very little to me. My intention would be to develop a simulation, to accurately recreate the real thing, enthusiasts who want to simulate this thing will, if its done well enjoy, others like yourself will not, quite simple. I also feel that concetrating on clan play would negate the problem of online 'pricks' who spoil things. Again the commnad structure may also work because a clan would consist of like minded individuals who DO know each other.

As somebody who enjoys this type of game I am confident I 'read' these people better than yourself; as you've made clear, this is not your type of game. Why comment in such a self assured way about something you obviously know so little about, or have no desire to?. If I make the game myself, it will primarily be not for profit, though of course if that resulted it would be great. I would be happy to find enough people who feel as I do and who want to play the game as it was intended. My query was would it be possible with this engine, I did not request your ( limited in my humblest of opinions) marketing strategy...

#14 The military flight sim community is interesting in that its average user age is generally much higher than other online games. I would suggest it is because the older age group plays games for different reasons than the younger. Perhaps, and this is an uneducated theory because I dont play them, MMORPGs tend to fail because of the subject matter, which appeals to the younger age group who can't afford them? Maybe more RPGs dealing with real world/ historical subject matter may capture adult interst? Sim enthusiasts usually have a strong interest in the particular historical era that the game portrays, and they want to virtually 'live' the stories they have read. Other game types may also not suit the average gamer, turn based war games come to mind, but they have a strong user base. I'm not wanting an argument Matt but I do find your position a little narrow minded...

#15 Yeah, flight sims go for high realism... and yeah. It ends up only being bought by a niche market. So if you don't mind working with a much smaller audience then I guess you could do pretty much anything.

Compare Rainbow 6 and SWAT. Both good examples of realism, but Rainbow 6 went a bit more towards the quick-paced action which ended up bringing it more mainstream... and more sales. No doubt Tom Clancy's name helped a lot, but the reason I haven't really had much desire to play SWAT series of games was that it's too much of a sim.

The reason flight sim niche's work is because it's audience is older than that found with shooters. I don't know about you, but the desire to shoot someone in the head is pretty immature. Flying a plane level is well... boring (to me) but I'm not that mature. I think your age is inversely related to how much you like flight sims! :p

I believe the reason we haven't seen many (if any) attempts at a truly realistic shooter is because the audience that demands hardcore realism (tank and flight sims) aren't the same audience that enjoys first-person shooters.

#16 Well, I happen to think you are wrong there, but what do I know? :) A desire to reinact military history may be immature but many adults still do it. I would like to work within this niche market, the game I WANT to make will not have mass appeal, I realise that. But enough people play table top war games, strategy games on computer to provide a sizable market. These people do not like quake type games, but who said that quake is what I wanted?. Because they dont like the quakes of this world you assume they wont enjoy any game that is first person and allows you to fire a weapon? Many of the flight sim community also enjoy Operation Flashpoint, probably as realistic as these games get at the moment. Funny too that many ask for still more realism?.

As I assume you have no interest in 20th century military history I will say that you probably don't really understand the appeal of this subject. I genuinely await your concept with much anticipation Matt, it has a lot to live up too. Any clues? :)

#17 All I'm saying is that's a niche market.

I personally don't like those kinds of games, but that's how it goes.

I've given up on military combat games because there are so many of them (I believe 3 present day, 2 past are in progress right now at GG) and I dunno... I just lost interest in FPSes.

#18 Judging from what I have seen in the past, it really doesn't matter what era or game style you make the game, as long as the gameplay is addictive.

Perfect examples of this are Medieval based games, RTS's and FPS's. That era and those styles of play have been played to death, and I would go as far as to say that they are the most used *and* most popular game types to date.

#19 wha?

I can't even name one that has been a major seller in the past few years.

Medieval is not a very common genre, nor would I say it's really popular. Well... unless I'm just missing some game that was really popular and I never heard of.

#20 EverQuest
Asherons Call
Dark Ages of Camalot
Age of Empires
Age of Empires 2
Warcraft
Ultima Online
Diablo
Diablo 2
Baulders Gate
Icewind Dale


bla bla bla...
You need to play some games :)

Also people are EAGERLY awaiting for:

Never Winter Nights
Dungeon Seige
Shadowbane

...and I am sure more that I am not thinking of.

This doesn't sound like the market is going stale. Also remember that when one generation is starting to think those genres are getting stale, there is a fresh new generation to take its place.