Task assignment
by Rev. A. Bell · in General Discussion · 03/19/2002 (1:59 pm) · 25 replies
Let me begin by saying that I simply cannot wait to sink my teeth into this project.
I'm just curious as to how task assignment will be accomplished. Once somebody has selected a task will it then become unavailable to others?
That would be ideal, as we won't end up with several people working towards the same goal, and hence would not be wasting community resources.
Also, how much consideration will be given to community suggestions as to the design of the game? Would it be worth while to start a suggestions thread, or is the design written in stone at this point?
- Barry
I'm just curious as to how task assignment will be accomplished. Once somebody has selected a task will it then become unavailable to others?
That would be ideal, as we won't end up with several people working towards the same goal, and hence would not be wasting community resources.
Also, how much consideration will be given to community suggestions as to the design of the game? Would it be worth while to start a suggestions thread, or is the design written in stone at this point?
- Barry
About the author
#2
If no one in the community volunteers a submission for a task, the Project Lead is then responsible for seeing it completed in some fashion.
Eventually, the Project Lead will have availible to them a core group of community memebers responsible and able enough that the PL can trust important tasks too while being reasonably sure they will be completed. However, the fact that any task is open to anyone in the community at any time is important for a "Community Project".
03/21/2002 (5:55 pm)
Actually, since this is a "Community" Project, tasks should be availible to anyone in any number. A Project Lead merely states a task that needs to be accomplished and then leaves it to the community to get it done. As a community member, you can veiw the current task list and choose something you think you would be willing to enter a submission on. The project lead is left to decide which submissions best fit the intented goal of the Task and then implement them into the project.If no one in the community volunteers a submission for a task, the Project Lead is then responsible for seeing it completed in some fashion.
Eventually, the Project Lead will have availible to them a core group of community memebers responsible and able enough that the PL can trust important tasks too while being reasonably sure they will be completed. However, the fact that any task is open to anyone in the community at any time is important for a "Community Project".
#3
Not to mention I'd be pretty bitter if I spent a month or two working on something only to find out in the final stages that someone just completed their implementation.
That's not to say that only one person should work on a task, if it's a large task it should be up to the PL to determine the optimal number of people to tackle it. Once a user signs to take on a task, it should be understood that they are committed to that task, and it would be quite frowned upon if the community doesn't see steady progress towards it's completion (otherwise, why'd they sign on?).
Well, that's my take anyhow,
Barry
03/21/2002 (7:22 pm)
Yes, it is a community project, but surely there will be some idea of allocation of resources. I mean, what's the point of having 30 developers working on one feature when you could spread that out to 15, 20 or even 30 features (depending on their complexity).Not to mention I'd be pretty bitter if I spent a month or two working on something only to find out in the final stages that someone just completed their implementation.
That's not to say that only one person should work on a task, if it's a large task it should be up to the PL to determine the optimal number of people to tackle it. Once a user signs to take on a task, it should be understood that they are committed to that task, and it would be quite frowned upon if the community doesn't see steady progress towards it's completion (otherwise, why'd they sign on?).
Well, that's my take anyhow,
Barry
#4
Either way, I know this is going to be a fun experience.
03/21/2002 (7:57 pm)
I think we'll learn more once GG comes back. No doubt they have a plan in place, but not interfering (they are too busy with GDC to post here) would actually net them some uncoerced suggestions.Either way, I know this is going to be a fun experience.
#5
Realm Wars relies on a faceless community to provide the resources needed to complete a project of X(+?) number of tasks. Where as an in-house project is restricted by its limited number of resources, (but can expect a reliable level of quality and effort from said resources,) Realm Wars isn't and can't. Being a Community Project, Realm Wars can tap a potentially limitless source of resources from its community well. Every person who visits the Garage Games website is a potential resource for completing a task on the Realm Wars project. However, this is not without drawbacks. The potential is infinite, but there are no guarantees from anything tapped from the community. You can not bank on the results you might expect when it comes to quantity, quality or even the amount of time it will take to get anything back from the community. That makes it very difficult to allocate tasks for a project in the traditional sense. One moment the community well will be flooded with plenty of offers for completing a task and the next the well will be dry with no offers.
The well also isn't reliable. The good thing about a community project is that anybody can pitch in and offer help. The bad news is that, anybody can pitch in and offer help. By allocating a specific task to a specific (faceless)member of the community, one is committing to that choice and the results it will bring to the project, good or bad. The strength and point of a Community Project is that you have the ability to draw upon the best a community can offer. By locking into choices and allocating to single members, you are limiting the potential of the community well.
The idea behind a Community Project is that you'll get lots of suggestions and donations from which you can choose the very best that is suited to the projects design goal. Simply because one member has already stated they are working on something, that shouldn't prevent another member from also contributing something if they feel they can add to the project. The only way a member can be left out in the cold when it comes to making a decision regarding a task is to remain closed to the community and keep from sharing. If one is concerned about investing a lot of time and effort into a contribution that goes unrecognized, my advice is to remain open to the community all throughout the process of creating your contribution. Share with the community early and all throughout your process so the community can see what your ideas and thoughts are. That way the community feeds off itself and learns to build upon the strengths of each individual member.
One member might say "Hey, look at this piece of art I'm creating as a design for ItemX in the game." Another member might then reply "Wow, that's neat. I also drew a design for ItemX. I like how you made functionY in your design, it looks better suited to the task." Both members can now draw upon each others ideas for ItemX and potentially create an even better ItemX then possible if each member had quietly worked by themselves. That's the strength behind a Community Project.
03/21/2002 (9:01 pm)
This isn't a traditional project that you can allocate resources within. The community is faceless, not like having an in-house development group where you can say "Here, you work on this and you work on that". An in-house group (including your amateur game Mod groups) have fixed, but reliable resources to work with. They have X number of people, X number of tasks and X amount of time to get them done. The strength in this is in the fact that you have reliable resources you can work with. You know you have this many workers to code functions, draw art, create models, engineer sound (ect..). You can easily allocate the work load and plot goals when you know what you have to work with. The weakness in this is the fact that you are working with a fixed amount of resources and are limited to only being able to allocate so much at any one time.Realm Wars relies on a faceless community to provide the resources needed to complete a project of X(+?) number of tasks. Where as an in-house project is restricted by its limited number of resources, (but can expect a reliable level of quality and effort from said resources,) Realm Wars isn't and can't. Being a Community Project, Realm Wars can tap a potentially limitless source of resources from its community well. Every person who visits the Garage Games website is a potential resource for completing a task on the Realm Wars project. However, this is not without drawbacks. The potential is infinite, but there are no guarantees from anything tapped from the community. You can not bank on the results you might expect when it comes to quantity, quality or even the amount of time it will take to get anything back from the community. That makes it very difficult to allocate tasks for a project in the traditional sense. One moment the community well will be flooded with plenty of offers for completing a task and the next the well will be dry with no offers.
The well also isn't reliable. The good thing about a community project is that anybody can pitch in and offer help. The bad news is that, anybody can pitch in and offer help. By allocating a specific task to a specific (faceless)member of the community, one is committing to that choice and the results it will bring to the project, good or bad. The strength and point of a Community Project is that you have the ability to draw upon the best a community can offer. By locking into choices and allocating to single members, you are limiting the potential of the community well.
The idea behind a Community Project is that you'll get lots of suggestions and donations from which you can choose the very best that is suited to the projects design goal. Simply because one member has already stated they are working on something, that shouldn't prevent another member from also contributing something if they feel they can add to the project. The only way a member can be left out in the cold when it comes to making a decision regarding a task is to remain closed to the community and keep from sharing. If one is concerned about investing a lot of time and effort into a contribution that goes unrecognized, my advice is to remain open to the community all throughout the process of creating your contribution. Share with the community early and all throughout your process so the community can see what your ideas and thoughts are. That way the community feeds off itself and learns to build upon the strengths of each individual member.
One member might say "Hey, look at this piece of art I'm creating as a design for ItemX in the game." Another member might then reply "Wow, that's neat. I also drew a design for ItemX. I like how you made functionY in your design, it looks better suited to the task." Both members can now draw upon each others ideas for ItemX and potentially create an even better ItemX then possible if each member had quietly worked by themselves. That's the strength behind a Community Project.
#6
=)
03/21/2002 (9:03 pm)
If I bank on anything from this "Community Project", it will be that its going to be a fun experience.=)
#8
:)
03/25/2002 (2:36 am)
Mightn't it also be the task of the various leads to delegate and monitor task submissions, to prevent unnecessary doubling up and maintain some order within the community?:)
#9
How are you going to work out credit for each little feature too? How will you keep track of the multitudes?
I'm not trying to say you're all doomed to fire and death with the project, but it seems like a daunting task to try to do as an entire community. How will you deal with people who are working on some part of the engine for a long time then just stop... without completing it? Cause that's going to be happening a lot I'm sure.
Rather than keeping it COMPLETELY open. Why not develop a massive team of members? Like 50 - 100. Then you can put the most dedicated at the heads of "departments" to help manage work on individual aspects of the game.
I think that anyone working on the project would like to have some sort of sense of being part of a team. I know that I would. And all the comraderie that goes along with it.
I think the project sounds awesome. I hope that everything works.
Sorry for my ignorant post before about "How is this going to work"
hehe... late at night and wanted to go to sleep. Had just gotten home from the GDC so I didn't take the time to read through all the posts on the forum.
03/25/2002 (9:34 am)
I dunno HOW this is going to work.... I see a lot of chaos... some argument between artistic egos... who's gets used where... How are you going to work out credit for each little feature too? How will you keep track of the multitudes?
I'm not trying to say you're all doomed to fire and death with the project, but it seems like a daunting task to try to do as an entire community. How will you deal with people who are working on some part of the engine for a long time then just stop... without completing it? Cause that's going to be happening a lot I'm sure.
Rather than keeping it COMPLETELY open. Why not develop a massive team of members? Like 50 - 100. Then you can put the most dedicated at the heads of "departments" to help manage work on individual aspects of the game.
I think that anyone working on the project would like to have some sort of sense of being part of a team. I know that I would. And all the comraderie that goes along with it.
I think the project sounds awesome. I hope that everything works.
Sorry for my ignorant post before about "How is this going to work"
hehe... late at night and wanted to go to sleep. Had just gotten home from the GDC so I didn't take the time to read through all the posts on the forum.
#10
-Ron
03/25/2002 (9:51 am)
those are all valid points, but from my point of view. I would be willing to devote time/effort to help out the project purely as a learning exp. If my completed tasks/submissions are used fine, if not fine as well. I hope that by helping out I can rub shoulders with some of the more experienced coders/scripters from which I can gain knowledge and exp from.-Ron
#11
Jeff's post has great insight as to how this project will work. Other than the higher level contributors such as the lead conceptual artist, lead programmers, and lead designer, all other contributions will be just that, contributions. It sill be up to the leads to decide if that contributed content is good enough to go into the game.
If you do create something that is accepted into the game, you will be given credit for that work. We will have an automated system of tracking contributions and giving credit.
You do have to realize that we have no method of assuring that your work goes into the game. But, that is actually one of the things GG brings to this project. Agree with us or not, we have done a lot of titles, and are pretty good at what we do. Even though RW is a community project, we are still providing the vision. Community involvement will help shape that vision, but we maintain veto rights, and that is what will make it a great product.
Some people will be angry that their work is not accepted into the project, but if their work is eclipsed by another's, the project will be the better for it.
Much more to come.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/25/2002 (12:14 pm)
We have a lot of explaining to do, and it will take some time. meanwhile, we will be creating the web infrastructure that allows us to post tasks, and allows people to submit content for those tasks.Jeff's post has great insight as to how this project will work. Other than the higher level contributors such as the lead conceptual artist, lead programmers, and lead designer, all other contributions will be just that, contributions. It sill be up to the leads to decide if that contributed content is good enough to go into the game.
If you do create something that is accepted into the game, you will be given credit for that work. We will have an automated system of tracking contributions and giving credit.
You do have to realize that we have no method of assuring that your work goes into the game. But, that is actually one of the things GG brings to this project. Agree with us or not, we have done a lot of titles, and are pretty good at what we do. Even though RW is a community project, we are still providing the vision. Community involvement will help shape that vision, but we maintain veto rights, and that is what will make it a great product.
Some people will be angry that their work is not accepted into the project, but if their work is eclipsed by another's, the project will be the better for it.
Much more to come.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#12
So is "Garage Games" as an entity creating the title? And then offering the chance for the community to pitch in and contribute what they like? Then the core team on Garage games will decide what content gets into the game and what doesn't? Do I have that right?
I didn't realize that Garage Games was creating games themselves as an organization. Or am I misunderstanding everything?
Cause if that's the way it's being done, that makes much more sense.
It's still a really cool idea nonetheless though, no matter how you go about doing it.
03/25/2002 (4:54 pm)
Ahh, I see. So is "Garage Games" as an entity creating the title? And then offering the chance for the community to pitch in and contribute what they like? Then the core team on Garage games will decide what content gets into the game and what doesn't? Do I have that right?
I didn't realize that Garage Games was creating games themselves as an organization. Or am I misunderstanding everything?
Cause if that's the way it's being done, that makes much more sense.
It's still a really cool idea nonetheless though, no matter how you go about doing it.
#13
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/25/2002 (6:31 pm)
We are leading the project, providing technology, infrastructure, design, vision, etc. However, since we are just four guys in a garage (office now), we can't do everything. So, we are looking for help in all areas.Jeff Tunnell GG
#14
03/25/2002 (7:00 pm)
You got my help! even tho it is limited with respects to scripting ;) I will do my best to do my duty, to churn out positive code and protect the world of evil doers
#15
03/25/2002 (9:37 pm)
ahh, now i see...actually, i just wanted another jeff in the thread :P. you guys should put the bit about the leads/contributors relationship up on the RW project page, the paragraph above really clarifies the way the project will run.
#16
I still forsee some issues, but I'll hold off on any comments until I see the way things are actually going to work.
- Barry
03/26/2002 (10:41 am)
Yes, the idea is becoming a little more clear for me now. For some reason I had it in my head that the first working implementation received for a task would be the one used (don't ask me why). I still forsee some issues, but I'll hold off on any comments until I see the way things are actually going to work.
- Barry
#17
I don't know if I explained that very well, but basically it would be nice to let people know of thier 'competition' for getting thier work posted.
I personally would feel more comfortable starting a task that is only being worked on by about six or seven other people rather than attempting one that is allready being worked on by fifty or sixty people.
Just my thoughts,
Michael
04/13/2002 (9:12 am)
I think it would be cool if there was some way to let other people know that someone is working on a certain task. Like if a task is posted, let people sign up for it, that way before some one decides to put alot of time and effort into it, they know how many others are doing the same, so people with less ability will know that they have a decent chance of getting their work taken and on things where alot of people have signed up, if they don't feel confident enough they can save thier time.I don't know if I explained that very well, but basically it would be nice to let people know of thier 'competition' for getting thier work posted.
I personally would feel more comfortable starting a task that is only being worked on by about six or seven other people rather than attempting one that is allready being worked on by fifty or sixty people.
Just my thoughts,
Michael
#18
Hopefully, they pick leads people can respect, then it's up to the lead to help soothe egos and still get the project moving. If your ego is such that you can't take someone elses work being a bit better for you, you're probably having troubles getting on with everyone anyway.
I have faith. This community is pretty good, and even the big egos seem to get along with each other ;) As said elsewhere (and by others), one of the best communities I have seen.
04/13/2002 (11:08 am)
I'm taking the "wait and see" approach to the tools and the other infrastructure. Bug tracking, looking for using CVS for actual version control (that's how it's supposed to work, Michael, locked files have peoples names on them, so you don't overwrite code), and tasks will likely be tracked in some sort of online project plan. I'm also waiting to see if anything more than a high level design "philosophy" comes from the big guys here ;) See how much actual design work needs done, see how granular the task list is, etc.Hopefully, they pick leads people can respect, then it's up to the lead to help soothe egos and still get the project moving. If your ego is such that you can't take someone elses work being a bit better for you, you're probably having troubles getting on with everyone anyway.
I have faith. This community is pretty good, and even the big egos seem to get along with each other ;) As said elsewhere (and by others), one of the best communities I have seen.
#19
Basically the idea was open up the source, let people do as they please, then take the coolest/best changes an collate them into an official Netscape version.
There is NO WAY IN HELL just anybody is going to check out source code, change it, and check it back in (from the main tree)! That would be asking for disaster. (Even with rollback)
What I assume is that there will be a stable base that people can get copies of and play around with. Then, when you say create a new weapon you say "here's a new weapon I created in my pirvate version that you might want to use" or "here is some cool auto-aiming code you might like..." The official version gets updated, you get the latest version and go at it again.
I assume that "trusted" people will be doing all the actual integration into the main source and resource files. You need some form of quality control.
As far as different people working on the same task, I would assume those people would be asked to work together or compare notes or give progress updates to avoid entirely duplicated work. Communication will be key. Realistically speaking, a few key people will end up doing most of the work and becoming de-facto point people. That would be my guess anyway.
------------------------
I have some legal questions. Just to throw them out:
Best case scenario: "OMG Realm Wars just sold 1 million copies!"
Worst case scenario: "OMG Realm Wars just sold 1 million copies! How much do I get for my crossbow animation?"
Yeah the best and worst case scenario are largely the same. Assuming it turns out great and people (which people?) want to sell it and it does well, who gets what? I know everybody hates these types of issues and they are somewhat in conflict with community spirit but a bit of pre-planning is a lot better than lawsuits.
Note I am not saying "I plan to make a big contribution so I had better get paid!" :) But what I am saying is *if* someone makes a big contribution and *if* the game is saleable and does well, these questions are inevitable.
05/20/2002 (12:37 am)
Are people familiar with the open source plan Netscape had a few years ago? (That failed miserably, but that is another story)Basically the idea was open up the source, let people do as they please, then take the coolest/best changes an collate them into an official Netscape version.
There is NO WAY IN HELL just anybody is going to check out source code, change it, and check it back in (from the main tree)! That would be asking for disaster. (Even with rollback)
What I assume is that there will be a stable base that people can get copies of and play around with. Then, when you say create a new weapon you say "here's a new weapon I created in my pirvate version that you might want to use" or "here is some cool auto-aiming code you might like..." The official version gets updated, you get the latest version and go at it again.
I assume that "trusted" people will be doing all the actual integration into the main source and resource files. You need some form of quality control.
As far as different people working on the same task, I would assume those people would be asked to work together or compare notes or give progress updates to avoid entirely duplicated work. Communication will be key. Realistically speaking, a few key people will end up doing most of the work and becoming de-facto point people. That would be my guess anyway.
------------------------
I have some legal questions. Just to throw them out:
Best case scenario: "OMG Realm Wars just sold 1 million copies!"
Worst case scenario: "OMG Realm Wars just sold 1 million copies! How much do I get for my crossbow animation?"
Yeah the best and worst case scenario are largely the same. Assuming it turns out great and people (which people?) want to sell it and it does well, who gets what? I know everybody hates these types of issues and they are somewhat in conflict with community spirit but a bit of pre-planning is a lot better than lawsuits.
Note I am not saying "I plan to make a big contribution so I had better get paid!" :) But what I am saying is *if* someone makes a big contribution and *if* the game is saleable and does well, these questions are inevitable.
#20
Anyway the game will probably (I give a quite external point of view, but I've got some informations) be FREE.
GG ppl must confirm this, I don't want to say something wrong.
05/20/2002 (3:53 am)
You will be paid in function of your contribution, I think GG employee will choose this, but you can discuss with them. If you've made just a crossbow animation, I hope you're happy to have contributed to a great project but not want money.Anyway the game will probably (I give a quite external point of view, but I've got some informations) be FREE.
GG ppl must confirm this, I don't want to say something wrong.
Torque Owner nohbdy
The project leads will create 'Tasks' which will be show up on the 'Tasks' page. Initially tasks won't be assigned to anyone. However, when someone from the community decides they want to work on that task, they'll be able to get the task assigned to them. If these tasks end up being small jobs, it'd probably be best to limit them to single people. If the tasks end up being larger jobs it would be a good idea to allow multiple people to collaborate on the task. Whether GG plans to have the tasks be large or small, I don't know. Either way a task would ideally have a page for the person in charge of the task to post updates (versions, additions, changes, how they did the implementation) as this would be valuable to the community as far as a) learning, b) documentation, and c) backup in case the person in charge of the task mysteriously disappears or stops working on it for other reasons... I'm not sure whether or not that little page per task will actually exist but it would be a good addition to the Project Builder webapp (hint hint GG people :)
And suggestions... go for it! This is a community project and it would be foolish to not take community suggestions into account. Now is the time to make those suggestions, too. As far as I know the only design that's official is what's on the design document page... and this is just a 1 page initial design overview thing which will grow over time to the comprehensive beasts that you usually think of when you hear 'design document' :)