UnrealED to Torque convertor - ( Unreal Tournament Editor )

#61 Looks like Traction is out for a name...

www.twisted-systems.com/

David

#62 well, im thinking a name for the whole thing in terms of marketing is pointless anyways since itll be a series of seperate apps that we tweak to work seamlessly with torque. if cal3d falls to characterfx in the testing phase, users will need to purchase the latter and dl our plugins/patches. that doesnt mean we cant come up with a name for our project though. itll help to have a monosyllable to denote the project by name. cmon engineer guys, what is a one syllable word that is the natural complement to torque's name. not that we couldnt use traction, bc its just an internal name, but i think theres a cooler name waiting.

to contradict myself, we could bundle all the open source stuff in one package and give it a name.

#63 8D how aoout "Wrench" hehe. buy both and you got Torque-Wrench!

#64 i played around with the Cal3d demo, man that thing is sharp! the triangle thingy is cool...


Cal3d demo (towards bottom of page)

#65 keep me posted if a project is created and work begins, I would definatly like to be part of it!

#66 Torque Wrench is very cool. The other obvious in is ED, as in TorqueED. You know, "torqued" off.

Jeff Tunnell GG

#67 Gah, I knew I shouldn't have been silent on my wrench name. Guess we think alike.

#68 got my vote for TorqueED


-Ron

#69 its mine i tell you! back off, i made the name! ME! torque wrench copyright 2002 trademark patent pending jeff highsmith! muh...huhahahahaha!

#70 lol Jeff. =)

#71 ok, so far we have the following from this thread who are interested in working on this project, yes? if im wrong please correct me. also im sure there are more around who havent sounded off yet. INPO, they are

Ronald J. Yacketta
Melv & Masoud
David R. Green
Jeff Highsmith (by proxy ;-)

my mistake tim

#72 I'm not interested in working on it at the moment.

-Tim aka Spock

#73 "PSYCLE is a free OpenSource Music Production Studio,
that offers unlimited (opinions may vary) possibilites
for creating your own music in a professional way.

PSYCLE has an Old-School Tracker interface, but it
supports VST Plugins and VST Instruments in addition
to samples, to let your wildest music ideas come true.

Here some facts about Psycle:

- 32 Tracks Pattern Editor (this limitation will be removed in the future)
- Stereo Sampler unit, that supports high quality
stereo .wav files and .iff samples as well
- 8 internal Plugins (Sampler & Effects)
- 18 Native Plugins (Generators & effects)
- VST + VSTi Host (still limited but most plugins will work fine)
- Internal .wav output
- Configurable Keyboard Layout
- .fxb loading for VST's
- Midi-In Support

and much much more...

If you need help starting with Psycle, please, check the "Docs" section at
__Psycledelics site__ (official Psycle Users Site)

http://psycle.pastnotecut.org/

or its mirror at: http://psycle.project-psy.com/


Note:
Psycle supports VST1.0 and VST2.0 plugins, but not completely (Some plugins will not work)
Plans for supporting DXi are there, but it's not a primary work."

#74 this is a utility for converting 3ds files to dts files (i think). is this the same dts format as in Torque? could this be used to make a utility to convert 3ds files into dts files for Torque?

http://www.flybert.net/shapetools.htm

in any case, i think this would be the best way to handle importing into Torque. a converter works on a file independently, so you dont need to shell out 3500 bucks for max. since lots of apps can output 3ds max files besides max.

#75 Jeff... That would be a very old dts format generator.

The Red Baron engine was created by Dynamix and they have a community who still work on MODing it. The tools on that page came from Dynamix.

#76 i figured there would be differences, i guess im wondering how much different and would it be a good place to start on a converter for Torque. from what i can tell from all the apps im looking at for 'Traction', the 3ds2dts is all thats really needed.

#77 wouldnt let me delete so here are my notes for Traction.

Traction is a suite of content creation apps for Torque. Traction will be available thru GG (except for CFX) for free. The 3ds2dts may cost five bucks or so until the original cost is recouped, then it will be distributed for free as well.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Considerations for basic level Traction functionality:
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Torque
_____________________________________________________________________________________
uses dts format. a file converter for 3ds to dts needs to be written. maybe port the max2dts exporter to a standalone.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
WINGS3D-- will form the base shape editor for Traction. working title "Torqued"
_____________________________________________________________________________________
export: Nendo (.ndo), 3D Studio (.3ds), Wavefront (.obj), Renderman (.rib), VRML 2.0 (.wrl)
import: Nendo (.ndo), 3D Studio (.3ds), Wavefront (.obj)

tasks - fork wings 3d to Torqued.
extend help
_____________________________________________________________________________________
CHARACTERFX-- will form the character & animation studio for Traction. working title "Wrench"
_____________________________________________________________________________________
import: Autodesk 3DS (.3ds), Wavefront (.obj), Milkshape 3D ASCII (.txt)
export: Autodesk 3DS (.3ds), DirectX (.x), Quake II Model (.md2), Milkshape 3D ASCII (.txt), Nebula Script (.n), Wavefront (.obj)

tasks - extend help
integrate Cal3d library if productive.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
THE EXPRESSION TOOLKIT-- will form the facial animation studio working title "Mug", to be included in advanced Traction
_____________________________________________________________________________________
This is actually a plugin for max, so it needs to be ported first. that said, at least we know it already uses max's file format!

tasks - port to C++ standalone app.
extend help
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so, the common factor seems to be 3DS max's .3ds, with Maya's .obj right behind it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_____________________________________________________________________________________
GIMP--is an open source photoediting package (PAINTSHOP)
_____________________________________________________________________________________
hopefully gimp can be used mostly as is.

tasks - extend help
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Psychle
_____________________________________________________________________________________
an open source audio editor

tasks - extend help

The best way I can describe the Traction upgrade strategy I have in mind is a plugin model. Much of traction will be based on open sourced software. However, to prevent future licensing issues restricting Torque/Traction users, every new, stable version of an app in the Traction Suite will be forked to and integrated into the suite. Sort of like a paralell project, with customized help and maybe a Torque-themed skin. Functionality can be extended thru plugins, so you dont need to diverge the Traction version from the 'sourceforge' code at all, except to recompile for the new version or kill new bugs that arise.

The Base Traction Suite will consist of Shape, Character, Paint and Sound apps (working titles), based on W3D, CFX, Gimp, and Psychle, respectively.

The Advanced Traction Suite will add Expression and Cal3d.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
milestone zero :-)
_____________________________________________________________________________________
-3ds2dts converter- this is the crucial part of the issue for a Traction suite. the
-forking and cosmetic changes to W3d, CFX, GIMP, and Psychle.
-Traction Help (including eula, help, tutorials, etc.)
-Address critical functionality/bug issues of all Apps
-setup cvs, web pages, etc.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
milestone one
_____________________________________________________________________________________
-test first Traction build
-port Expression Toolkit to Traction if productive
-integrate Cal3d into CharacterFX if productive
-Address trivial functionality issues of all Apps

#78 Hi,

Actually, there are a few of us discussing an Integrated Development System right now.
DTS and DIF will most likely be replaced by a better ascii file format, and a new loader for Torque will be developed.

Simply taking other disparate applications and trying to string them together is usually more difficult that planning a new application. Incorporating features and algorithms from existing applications will speed productivity, but that's about it.

David

#79 hi, wheres the discussion? i wasnt so much proposing stringing them together as i was proposing bundling them. you use torqued for shape editing, then export to CFX if its a character to animate, texture it in GIMP, etc. also i failed to mention that bones will need to be put into W3D.

if someone wants to make a single do everything app from scratch, more power to them, i just dont want to reinvent the wheel myself. basically i just need a robust 3ds2dts converter, and maybe a converter for 3ds2(whatever format the community comes up with).

i also fail to see the practicality of a modeler/animator/texturer/audio app. somewhere youll have a division. so you go 3d, 2d, sound. so the 3d program will consist of everything you need to create shapes, edit terrain, animate characters, lighting, etc. but i kinda like the idea of the editor and the character animation tools being seperate, but its not like im some 3d guru.

anyways, im happy to hear what anyone has to say about all this.

#80 Hi Jeff H.

The discussion is currently off-forum, with a team of GG members and some input by GG staff. If things go ahead, we'll probably announce what's going to happen.

Since much of the code and algorithms already exist, we won't be re-inventing too much of the wheel, basically mounting and balancing it on the rim... :-)

A fully and tightly integrated application *is* the best solution. See UnrealEd as an example (check out the 800+ Build, not version 2.0).


Some of the major problems with using various applications that are not designed to work together:

- Exported and Imported data structures may be partially incomplete or incompatible.

- Kludges and hacks within one application may have to be used so that its data structure will work with another. eg: odd mesh or texture naming conventions to support objects.

- Partial to extreme duplication of code. For example, much of the code between a 3D Mesh and 3D Construct editor will be similar. Likewise, much of the OpenGL code will be similar between Mesh, Construct, UV Mapping/Wrapping/Painting, Character Animating, etc. Keeping this in totally separate apps results in large portions of duplicated code that in most cases can't be easily combined into a single linkable library if all of the source applications come from different areas or are in various programming languages.

- Too much "export the mesh", "swap to another app", "import the mesh", "find out it has problems", "go back and fix and re-export", ...
This also has the drawback of possibly no continuity between data structures, making it difficult at times to keep work that you have completed in one application transferrable to a change that you have to make in another application. eg: if the mesh you just created in one app and animated in another has to be tweaked, you may end up having to redo the entire animation from scratch.


The Editor and Animation tools *should* be the same app. Otherwise all of the industry giants in this area (3DS Max etc.) would be using individual applications.


David