World build issues and questions
by John Spivey · in General Discussion · 02/22/2006 (7:17 am) · 7 replies
I am the level designer on my team and (like everyone else) we are working on a MMO. The problems that I am running into so far all deal with lighting the scene. Our world requires some HUGE models. I mean they are BIG BIG BIG. Quark wont let you build these models as big as they need be so we have resorted to scaling them in Torque in the editor. It works but things like stairs have gone bye bye. Too many brushes and Torque just poops out and crashes, we have resorted to using ramps instead. Well by scaling them up they look great but it limits me when it comes to things like details.
I found this picture of a SS from Chronicles of Spellborn at Warcry.
Will get the image linked here later but this is the URL
This thing is pretty big. Yet there are some models that are bigger in our build so far. Based on what I know about modeling with Quark is that the level of detail you see in the previous SS cannot be done in quark. Most of that stuff appears to be the equivilant of .dif's that we use for Torque. Now I am not saying that I could not do the model you see in the SS. I am saying that map2dif would ruin it. There are still many instances of brush co-ordinates getting skewed in the map2dif process.
Lighting has become the very bane of my exsistance when it has come to this project. The models are so large that it takes quite some time to light them. Which when loading a game for the first time is not a problem, loading it every 5-10 minutes to check on tweaks to the models is. Showtool only shows .dts models as far as I can tell.
All that being said I would love to know how to either;
a) Cut out all that processing of shadows and just have a plain (shadow free-the shadows that come from the .dif's models) environment
b) Just cut down on the surfaces that are being lit.
I have read of a few tricks that I have not yet implemented but would require serious time to do.
1) Null textures applied to hidden faces- I have tried this but found that due to the map2dif co-ordinates getting off somewhat from time to time makes for some funky looking items if that null face is seen.
2) Portals. I have tried to get portals to work in these models but I am finding it dificult to "seal" off a small area. The brushes are not lining up just right and causing "ligh leaks" (which are not really "leaks" but thats what most call them.)
Some other thoughts that I had that "may" help me. (Could really use some input on this one) Should I just do the fancy work as a .dts? I have seen in another game that there is some of this in use. Applying (the equivialant to our .dts models) .dts over a .dif in certain spots to make it more realistic. It is my understanding that .dts does not get factored into the lighting process.
If this all seems noob'ish in questions I do apologize. I have only been modeling for a year or so now and when you take those models you made before and have to apply it to something (like our game) things all change.
Thanks to all the people that have been supportive thus far and the staff at GG for being so helpfull.
John
I found this picture of a SS from Chronicles of Spellborn at Warcry.
Will get the image linked here later but this is the URL
This thing is pretty big. Yet there are some models that are bigger in our build so far. Based on what I know about modeling with Quark is that the level of detail you see in the previous SS cannot be done in quark. Most of that stuff appears to be the equivilant of .dif's that we use for Torque. Now I am not saying that I could not do the model you see in the SS. I am saying that map2dif would ruin it. There are still many instances of brush co-ordinates getting skewed in the map2dif process.
Lighting has become the very bane of my exsistance when it has come to this project. The models are so large that it takes quite some time to light them. Which when loading a game for the first time is not a problem, loading it every 5-10 minutes to check on tweaks to the models is. Showtool only shows .dts models as far as I can tell.
All that being said I would love to know how to either;
a) Cut out all that processing of shadows and just have a plain (shadow free-the shadows that come from the .dif's models) environment
b) Just cut down on the surfaces that are being lit.
I have read of a few tricks that I have not yet implemented but would require serious time to do.
1) Null textures applied to hidden faces- I have tried this but found that due to the map2dif co-ordinates getting off somewhat from time to time makes for some funky looking items if that null face is seen.
2) Portals. I have tried to get portals to work in these models but I am finding it dificult to "seal" off a small area. The brushes are not lining up just right and causing "ligh leaks" (which are not really "leaks" but thats what most call them.)
Some other thoughts that I had that "may" help me. (Could really use some input on this one) Should I just do the fancy work as a .dts? I have seen in another game that there is some of this in use. Applying (the equivialant to our .dts models) .dts over a .dif in certain spots to make it more realistic. It is my understanding that .dts does not get factored into the lighting process.
If this all seems noob'ish in questions I do apologize. I have only been modeling for a year or so now and when you take those models you made before and have to apply it to something (like our game) things all change.
Thanks to all the people that have been supportive thus far and the staff at GG for being so helpfull.
John
#2
On the lighting issue, I would recommend picking up the lighting pack and using static lights where you won't bleed between the edges of your chunked DIF's and then lighting pack "dynamic" lights in the places between. Plus, you have a higher degree of shadow control.
I am also a huge fan of using DTS models as detail items, even if it is annoying to place in the world editor in huge environments. It allows you to decorate your environments with extreme detail that brushwork doesn't provide.
02/22/2006 (7:46 am)
When creating huge interiors, I would recommend breaking them up into chunks. This is what Tim Aste did with the castle pack. Doing it in chunks will take care of the details like stairs without causing them to be extremely out of proportion like scaling.On the lighting issue, I would recommend picking up the lighting pack and using static lights where you won't bleed between the edges of your chunked DIF's and then lighting pack "dynamic" lights in the places between. Plus, you have a higher degree of shadow control.
I am also a huge fan of using DTS models as detail items, even if it is annoying to place in the world editor in huge environments. It allows you to decorate your environments with extreme detail that brushwork doesn't provide.
#3
This I have done. The main model that has caused the biggest pain is broken into around 9 pieces. The columns and all that detail type stuff is a seperate model. I did this by building the whole thing in quark as one huge model. Then I would just delete the segments I did not need. Save file. Reopen original full model and delete sections till I got to a diferent part. If the model was one entity it crashes the game engine. As it stands right now the lighting of a scene actually makes windows think that the operation has timed out and I get the (Not Responding) text on the Torque window. Only when i have to relight the scene though.
I should have been more specific here. The entire model is 98% exsposed to the outside world. Think Astrodome with the sun roof open. Cant really port that too well. I was just trying to port out some small sections that reside "inside" the main model. I placed them just as I would with some houses I have done in the past. Didnt work. Made the brush, extruded past the bounds of the surrounding brushes, null texture, assigned as a "portal" in the classification tree, did that with every seen orafice in the structure. No joy. It works on houses, I have done that with no problem. Suppose I am missing something somewhere though.
We have not even adressed the lighting pack yet. We all have the TSE license and are hoping for some better lighting "in engine" with the TSE. My model though has no interior type lighting instances in the builds,yet. We have not even implemented darktime in game, yet. Another instance of where I should have explained better. The lighting I have been talking about is the Mission lighting. As in the sun is "on" therefor we have light, kinda thing. That make more sense? Or maybe its me that is not getting the point here?
02/22/2006 (11:09 am)
Quote:Stephen Zepp
Finally, there should be some way to take those massive maps and break them down--even if it means taking certain chokepoints like stairways, doors, etc. and using them as connectors between two difs. Can't guarantee it, but it should help with performance, as well as allow for easier modification of levels in the future.
This I have done. The main model that has caused the biggest pain is broken into around 9 pieces. The columns and all that detail type stuff is a seperate model. I did this by building the whole thing in quark as one huge model. Then I would just delete the segments I did not need. Save file. Reopen original full model and delete sections till I got to a diferent part. If the model was one entity it crashes the game engine. As it stands right now the lighting of a scene actually makes windows think that the operation has timed out and I get the (Not Responding) text on the Torque window. Only when i have to relight the scene though.
Quote:Stephen Zepp
1) Learn how to use portals properly. Forget lighting--your players are going to be bogged down in performance issues with those huge dif structures without proper portalization (which is your primary optimization capability while making interiors). It will also help you out.
I should have been more specific here. The entire model is 98% exsposed to the outside world. Think Astrodome with the sun roof open. Cant really port that too well. I was just trying to port out some small sections that reside "inside" the main model. I placed them just as I would with some houses I have done in the past. Didnt work. Made the brush, extruded past the bounds of the surrounding brushes, null texture, assigned as a "portal" in the classification tree, did that with every seen orafice in the structure. No joy. It works on houses, I have done that with no problem. Suppose I am missing something somewhere though.
Quote:David Blake
On the lighting issue, I would recommend picking up the lighting pack and using static lights where you won't bleed between the edges of your chunked DIF's and then lighting pack "dynamic" lights in the places between. Plus, you have a higher degree of shadow control.
We have not even adressed the lighting pack yet. We all have the TSE license and are hoping for some better lighting "in engine" with the TSE. My model though has no interior type lighting instances in the builds,yet. We have not even implemented darktime in game, yet. Another instance of where I should have explained better. The lighting I have been talking about is the Mission lighting. As in the sun is "on" therefor we have light, kinda thing. That make more sense? Or maybe its me that is not getting the point here?
#4
I'm at a loss (not surprising).
02/22/2006 (11:40 am)
Add your lighting entities in Quark and then turn off the sun's values to see if your lightmap processing kills the engine.I'm at a loss (not surprising).
#5
The Torque Lighting Kit allows you to change the lighting quality and to disable shadows while modeling to speed up relighting. TLK was designed from the ground up for efficient workflow.
As an example; an early version of the WarZone demo that takes more than 11 minutes to relight, takes only 9 seconds in TLK 1.4 on the lowest lighting settings.
The quality settings are saved as prefs, so you can exit Torque, start it back up, and load a mission with the same quality settings. That means the relight that occurs during mission load uses the same settings and is also super faster.
Also TLK allows you to select objects to relight, so you can quickly relight the objects you're working on without calculating the entire scene. This can be used with the lighting quality settings to make relights even faster.
-John
02/22/2006 (12:01 pm)
Hi John,The Torque Lighting Kit allows you to change the lighting quality and to disable shadows while modeling to speed up relighting. TLK was designed from the ground up for efficient workflow.
As an example; an early version of the WarZone demo that takes more than 11 minutes to relight, takes only 9 seconds in TLK 1.4 on the lowest lighting settings.
The quality settings are saved as prefs, so you can exit Torque, start it back up, and load a mission with the same quality settings. That means the relight that occurs during mission load uses the same settings and is also super faster.
Also TLK allows you to select objects to relight, so you can quickly relight the objects you're working on without calculating the entire scene. This can be used with the lighting quality settings to make relights even faster.
-John
#6
In the quake1 days you could light your levels for DAYS. =)
Sorry, I can't help with the actual problem though.
02/22/2006 (12:13 pm)
11 minutes??In the quake1 days you could light your levels for DAYS. =)
Sorry, I can't help with the actual problem though.
#7
02/22/2006 (3:35 pm)
Thank you so much for the lighting information John. Will the TLK be supported with the TSE or will it have its own "in engine" lighting? This sounds like the answer to my problems. 
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
1) Learn how to use portals properly. Forget lighting--your players are going to be bogged down in performance issues with those huge dif structures without proper portalization (which is your primary optimization capability while making interiors). It will also help you out.
2) Have your coder disable mission relighting as an option for you during your level design. He should make it a command line option so you still have the ability to relight the scene on a build when you need it.
Finally, there should be some way to take those massive maps and break them down--even if it means taking certain chokepoints like stairways, doors, etc. and using them as connectors between two difs. Can't guarantee it, but it should help with performance, as well as allow for easier modification of levels in the future.