GG. What do you want?

#1 I'd think that both innovation and fun is like pornography- you cant define it, but you know it when you see it. So I doubt you can request a formula of innovation :)

#2 Nauris - I'm not looking for a formula of innovation. I'm looking for guidance in recognizing and understanding exactly what innovation is, and specifically what GG wants.

#3 Personal opinion : Maybe you're looking at the problem backwards? What I mean is that if you sit down and start writing a design doc for a game that has no known features except 'fun' and 'innovative', that page might stay blank for a looooong time. Taking a gameplay prototype and then trying to fit innovative features or gameplay elements in it is more workable.

Also, XBLA is great! But I don't think you can just make a game and sell it there. From what I've seen most games on XBLA already have 'proven' themselves in another market.

Just thoughts, don't take it personal :)

#4 Simon - Thanks for your unique perspective. I don't generally think of fun and innovation when I design. I design what I want and then I look it over to see if it's got that kick to it. A lot of the time I design on a gameplay mechanic. That's how The Funk came to be. But even if I feel a game has that special bit of creative whatchamacallit I have no idea if it's in the right space, if you know what I mean.

Maybe I'm asking for too much in this thread, I don't know. I just feel that if I'm going to make a game targeted at breaking this market open (for myself) I can't focus on making an innovative, fun game, when I really have no idea what that looks like in a game.

#5 Defining innovative and fun gameplay is much like defining music. Its near impossible to do. Even if you do manage to create a definition for it that encompasses all possible aspects you're left with this cold, scientific description that no longer resembles the essence of what you were trying to define.

Generally the best way to start is to think of what sounds like fun to you. Then look it over and see where it can be improved so that it will become a fresh idea and set it apart from others. Which, as you said is the way you did The Funk, which I'm looking forward to playing by the way. I agree with Simon that if you get hung up on innovation and fun at first you'll be stuck for awhile. Also, why not push The Funk for an XBLA release? It certainly seems unique enough to me that it would stand out there.

#6 Well, let's look at a couple of games released recently here at GG. Let's look at Marble Blast Ultra, Tube Twist, and Tribal Trouble. I don't particularly find any of these games "innovative", but I have thoroughly enjoyed every single one of them since they pushed the fun envelope. Rolling a ball around ramps has been around a long time. Kind of hard to make that mechanic "innovative" but GG made it fun. Tube Twist is a tube-based Incredible Machine-esque game. Again, not terribly innovative, but 21-6 made it extremely entertaining. Tribal Trouble took the tried and true RTS mechanics, provided a different environment, and entertaining art to create a fun little RTS game. Innovative? Not really. But fun? Hell yes.

#7 Scott - I thought the games on XBLA 360 all had to use high tech shaders and have tons of content. The Funk is 2D and I don't see room for shaders or spiffy art. Maybe I'm missing something. If those aren't requirements, or there are ways to add those things to a 2D game, then that is definately an avenue I would like to pursue.

David - I catch your drift. So perhaps GG isn't looking for games that break new ground, just something with a high fun factor and uniqueness. That would definately help me focus my efforts.

#8 So "fun" is more important than "innovation". And in order for a game to be fun it doesn't have to be innovative. I agree with you David. I'd also like to note that most if not all of the XBLA games are nothing new as far as never seen before gameplay mechanics. But these are games that have graduated on the PC as successful titles. I guess the moral to this story is that fun is the #1 priority when it comes to making a game. Fun can mean great controlls and character animation. Fun can mean watching a satisfying explosion when you destroy an enemy. Fun could mean a gratifying sound effect when you shoot, jump, or score bonus points. It's a combination of all these things and a lot more. It doesn't have to include innovation at all. Halo, Madden, Marble Blast Ultra, and whatever game is in the #1 spot on XBLA right now (I forget the name but I know it isn't anything new or fresh) have proven this time and time again. I do agree that we can't compete with the Halo's and the Madden's. So we need to be a little different and provide something they haven't thought of or aren't willing to do right now. But does every game have to be the most unique piece of software that has ever been scanned by human retinas in order to be fun or successful? Nope. I don't think so. Not at all. But hey man, this is just my opinion on the matter, with a few facts sprinkled in.
-Ajari-

#9

Quote:I thought the games on XBLA 360 all had to use high tech shaders and have tons of content. The Funk is 2D and I don't see room for shaders or spiffy art.

Spiffy art, maybe. High tech shaders, no. lol Not for a 2D game anyway. There's tons of 2D games on XBLA, and they just announced Street Fighter II at CES'06.

Quote:just something with a high fun factor and uniqueness.

I think that's exactly what it is.

#10 :0 How do I get in these narrow minded streams of thought.

#11 I agree with Ajari & David, The games need to be FUN!!! Then they should be abit unique, and only last should they be innovative. The innovation should be combining things in new ways, or (if you are really luck), inventing something totally new. But FIRST (and mostly second as well) is FUN!!!

Lee-Orr

#12 I think the slight misunderstanding is exactly what the last several folks have said: Fun comes first, innovative is a secondary (but still critical) factor.

Keep in mind here that Jeff is condensing a lot of both personal experience and professional research regarding how Indie game devs can compete--we can't compete against the multi-million dollar titles, so innovation becomes a strong discriminator that indie devs have a natural advantage over large developer studios.

#13 @Chris: I don't think I can actually define it. I can help with some direction and strategies for finding, and have done that at some of my keynotes I've given at IGC. I will be able to write up some of those speeches in the future.

The wierd thing is, Chris, you already did it with The Funk, and that is why GG is publishing it! But, I don't think this product would go to XB360. Eventually if they are able to expand the audience playing XB360 (I sure hope so), maybe, but not right now. The biggest problem with The Funk on consoles will be the User Interface in relation to controllers vs. mouse.

Fun is absolutely more important than innovation. BTW, a new MBG article is going up today that just starts to scratch the surface of this subject.

The way to get to fun is to make a game that you think is fun. If others agree, that is great. If they don't, screw 'em. Once you can say to yourself, "this is a fun game, I don't care you are...", then you have made it. If you are making a game for an audience you don't understand, are doing it just for money, or are listening to somebody else try to put your "square peg, in their round hole", then it will be difficult for you to believe in your product.

BTW, GG has just published a game that is not "fun", Camelot Galway. That product was published because of innovation and possibly showing the way to some new forms of educational products. We will, from time to time, publish more products in that category.

-Jeff Tunnell, Make It Big In Games

#14 Jeff - I understand what innovation is and (now) that fun is really where it's at.

What I'm trying to understand is what qualities and characteristics your company looks for in a game. It doesn't make any sense. On one side of the scale you have Lore Invasion, and on the other you have The Funk and on some other alien hand you have Camelot Galway.

Do you just play it, and if it's fun you publish it? (basically) ? No other criteria really. Just go with your gut feeling of wether the game is fun and has selling potential?

#15

Quote:The way to get to fun is to make a game that you think is fun. If others agree, that is great. If they don't, screw 'em.

I agree with that (actually that whole paragraph was great). I live by that rule with my music everyday, unless I'm being paid to compose for someone else (then their the boss and compramises must be made). The trick with that though is to not obtain an "American Idol" mindset. Just because you made it doesn't mean it's fun/good either. Look outside of yourself and just be honest with your evaluations and you'll know if you have a great product or not.

Quote:On one side of the scale you have Lore Invasion, and on the other you have The Funk and on some other alien hand you have Camelot Galway.

LOL

#16 I see two categories of games get people excited here in the GG office:

1) Fun, addictive, can't stop playing for hours/days games. These are usually pretty innovative and have a very refined gameplay mechanic. Usually we get to see these in raw and unpolished form but they hook us in enough to make us want to help to get them finished up.

2) Highly polished, aesthetically pleasing, and pretty much complete games that don't push the innovation envelope much but show a high level of skill in execution of an idea or gameplay. World of Warcraft is a great example of this level of polish. They didn't push any particular boundries in gameplay. They didn't try to innovate in any particular way. They just took what was fun from other MMORPG's and polished and polished until they had a smooth and enjoyable game to play. For an example closer to home take a look at Gold Fever. Nothing innovative at all about the gameplay but they finished a very nice and smooth game with a huge amount of polish on it.

Obviously, the type of game we like to see the most is one with addictively fun gameplay *and* enormous amount of polish (completed or near completed) but we *rarely* get to see those =P