Ok well, now I'm lost

#1 Purchase the TGE first Luke, you need it as the foundation. The TSE is an add-on that you can purchase later to add some advanced shader capabilites to the TGE.

#2 Excellent, thank you. I should probably stop annoying folks with my questions I'd probably not have if I was doing this research while more than half awake. With that in mind, another question however. All of this talk about the next version not being free? Should I buy now, or wait? I'd hate to fork out the money and next month have an lovely feature packed upgrade come out and slap me up side the head while reaching for my wallet!

#3 Hi Luke,

Well, first off, if you wait until TSE has been released (1.0 version) than you don't need to own TGE first. Since TSE is not finished yet its in an EA (Early Adopter) phase where only current owners of TGE can buy it.

Now the next question. TGE will still be developed even after TSE has been released. TGE is targeted at lower-end hardware. If you want to target the widest audience as far as hardware compatibility goes then TGE is it. TSE is a re-write of TGE and is targeted at higher-end graphics cards. If you need cutting edge stuff then you'll need to buy TSE. TSE also has a new terrain engine called Atlas that can handle very large terrain at really good frame rates.

Oh, and I'm sure someone will tell you or you may have already read it in another post. You'll have to do substantial C++ coding with TGE or TSE to make an MMORPG with them.

That being said.. I hope I answered your questions.

Steve

#4 TSE is originally based on TGE, but it is a standalone game engine that supports shader technology and has many other features (such as the "Atlas" terrain system). It is currently still under heavy development and so it is only available to current TGE owners for a special Early Adopter price. TSE will be sold by itself when it is 'complete' and released. I think it is generally recommended that if you want to develop and release a full functional game as soon as possible, TGE is the best choice, as you can then purchase TSE when it is completed and very easily merge your game into the TSE framework at a later date to take advantage of the improved graphics and other features.

#5 The C++ coding to be blunt scares the hell out of me, I already realise I don't even know slightly enough! Give it to me straight chaps, is this worth my time? I basically want a MUD.. Built within a graphical world. If I can have these three things, I'm happy.

1. An inventory/gold/swords etc
2. The ability to sit/lay/kneel on objects
3. The ability to break a table in a bar for instance, and have it stay broke, untill the bar owner, purchased a new one.

Oh wait, I lied!

4. A trade skill ability (Blacksmithing etc)

Can I do this, really, is it possible with this engine, or am I best to look else where?

#6 Okay, you uttered the (un)holy(?) utterance of "mmorpg". That's a HUGE undertaking. That said--and I'm sure you know this from the massive amount of research that any small team does in this arena which requires expertise on client/server integration, database management and integrity (which requires database expertise), massive hosting requirements (which equates out to a whole lotta $$$)--I'll try to give a little insight into the different versions of Torque.

TGE is the base engine, highly modified from its Tribes 2 days. It has a consistent structure that has stood the test of time, especially in terms of an action-based network model. This does not mean that a MMO could not be implemented in it (see Minions of Mirth, which has MMO-potential in scalability after MASSIVE modification). It would just mean that you would have to have a network metrics expert to guage exactly how the target game needs to work on the various clients.

TSE is the Torque Shader Engine. It is basically the next generation of TGE. It is more than an upgrade as it includes much of the tech that rivals next gen engines in terms of terrain and shader support. Unfortunately, the price for this is hardware compatability. If you are targeting the next generation of hardware and leaving the current and previous generations in the dust (probably not the best choice in a MMO game in its current generation), then TSE is the way to go. If you need next-gen tech to survive (say in a FPS where it has become necessary in even budget titles), then you should choose TSE.

T2D is an excellent 2D engine which works from the Torque architecture. Currently, the T2D objects have only rudimentary hooks into the netcode. Future milestones include stronger network support. Others have rolled their own into SQL databases.

TNL is the Torque Network Layer. It is basically TGE's amazing networking made available in a library format for other engines to incorporate. It does not manage the engine specifics. It is a damn fine network solution, and that is all that it tries to be.

Hope this helps clear the confusion.

EDIT: on additions since I posted.

Quote:1. An inventory/gold/swords etc

There is an inventory resource available. I do not know if it has been tested with 1.4.

Quote:2. The ability to sit/lay/kneel on objects

Work with 1) modelers to create the necessary characters and props, 2) animators to make the necessary animations, and 3) trigger documentation to combine the two. Note that the artpath is your largest problem here.

[quote3. The ability to break a table in a bar for instance, and have it stay broke, untill the bar owner, purchased a new one.[/quote]
That would be part of your save game data. Make sure to include the state of your objects.

Quote:4. A trade skill ability (Blacksmithing etc)

You could script it or use any number of stat resources. I can't remember if there is a skill modifier included in the MMORPG tutorials. Yes, there are tutorials, but they skeletal to provide the basics to which you add your specifics.

#7 Well, that sorted out any questions I had about the version types, thank you. While typing that no doubt I came up with another "newbie" set however.

When I say MMORPG.. I really mean, not that massive! Nothing like World of Warcraft of anything such! From what we have decided, if we got a player base with 50 max online at any one time we would be doing well, and have enough players to do what we want to do with the game.

The main question is, am I shooting my self in the foot here buying this code, will it kill me before I get it to do what I want?

#8 Luke,

Yes, what you want to do:

1. An inventory/gold/swords etc
2. The ability to sit/lay/kneel on objects
3. The ability to break a table in a bar for instance, and have it stay broke, untill the bar owner, purchased a new one.

Oh wait, I lied!

4. A trade skill ability (Blacksmithing etc)

This all can be done in TorqueScript and shouldn't require C++ changes, however, this does not an MMO make. While TGE has robust networking code your number of connections for a stock TGE engine is limited to 128 (I believe).

Steve

[Edit: If I'm not mistaken the network code is not the bottleneck with the number of connections its the rest of the engine that is your limit without modification ]

#9 Do you know C++? Will you be learning a language and a 500k line codebase plus networking concepts, database concepts, and general programming concepts at the same time?

EDIT:
You are not limited by any number of players but you are limited by bandwidth and the amount of information that you transfer (in accordance to bandwidth).

#10 I have a friend who is quickly becoming able with C++, sadly my C++ guru, decided he would make a number of shady moves on my wife over Christmas, while I was away, so we are lacking an "expert" so to say. 128 users would be more than enough, we are thinking along the lines of a text based RPG here, the bulk of the game will be based around the chat system, with players emoting rather than expecting the code to provide all of the action. If we can support a max of 60 players online at any one time, we are doing well in our books.

We are not aiming and becoming the next Everquest, we just want a small game, where we can roleplay with fellow friends etc, while having some pretty pictures to look at! We have already decided, that even if we only added our own items, clothes and models to the current stock code, it would be more than we expected we could do when we were hit with this idea.

#11 I think after all is said and done, TGE does what we need and probably a little more. With some work, we'll be well away! Everything we want it seems can be done, it's just investing the time, money, sweat and blood to make it all happen. With the community here, I'm sure we will never find our selves alone and lost. Thank you chaps for all of the advice, I'll purchase the code some time during the week, and start to loose even more sleep.

Thanks once more.

#12 Luke,

There are currently two books available that cover TGE and TorqueScript.

3d Game Programming All in One
Advanced 3d Game Programming All in One.

That should help you with the learning curve.

Steve

#13 Use the books luke. =)

#14 Quite honestly, with your described experience I would start first with something like Minions of Mirth's capability to script up your own server. It uses Torque (TGE), and for a very low price allows you to get into the specifics of your gameplay for this type of game without having to worry about engine code. This will allow you to spend good time making sure your game is worth all the effort of learning C++, Torque, plus all the theory you'll need for a successful game (published or not).

There is nothing more difficult and frustrating to have what you think is a quality game idea, but then get stuck trying to learn how to code it, even with strong technology behind you like Torque. First prove your idea can actually be fun, and then decide if you should really invest in the time, effort, and money needed to push it to the next level.