is a 3d modeling contest a good idea?
by Jeff Highsmith · in General Discussion · 03/03/2002 (10:46 pm) · 32 replies
i was thinking if the gg guys agreed, id like to sponsor an URGE 3d Modeling Contest with multiple categories. first place could get you a copy of torque, or cash, or both :). the entries would become property of the URGE to use in its future release in exchange for royalties to the artist. its ultimately to get some good content for my game, but it gets the community modelers/ skinners/animators some pimpage and gives gg some buzz too. i could advertise at polycount, 3dcafe, maxforums, planettribes, etc. to bring in some of the rest of the mod community.
i was thinking of the following categories
human male
human female
goblin male
then for spice, maybe
dragon
giant spider
horse/unicorn/pegasus
i dunno gotta give the categories some thought. or if theres enough interest, i could put up a poll that the artists, gg fans, whoever can use to vote for the categories they like.
in any event, once the categories are finalized, ill post some concept art to guide the projects (not as strict requirements, just for inspiration and the flavor of the world). the submission deadline would need be no sooner than 3-4 months (wont have the cash till then :).
does this sound like something you guys would want to do?
i was thinking of the following categories
human male
human female
goblin male
then for spice, maybe
dragon
giant spider
horse/unicorn/pegasus
i dunno gotta give the categories some thought. or if theres enough interest, i could put up a poll that the artists, gg fans, whoever can use to vote for the categories they like.
in any event, once the categories are finalized, ill post some concept art to guide the projects (not as strict requirements, just for inspiration and the flavor of the world). the submission deadline would need be no sooner than 3-4 months (wont have the cash till then :).
does this sound like something you guys would want to do?
About the author
#2
love the idea though, im new in modeling, but i still would go for it just for fun.
03/04/2002 (7:29 am)
does this also mean that you cant use your own models in your game? love the idea though, im new in modeling, but i still would go for it just for fun.
#3
03/04/2002 (9:42 am)
i see no reason that the models couldn't stay property of the artist, as long as i can use em in my game. and i was proposing to sponsor the contest myself, basically i just wanted gg's approval and an announcement or two. 
#4
Logan
03/04/2002 (10:36 am)
Before you go forth with this idea, it might be best if you posted possible rules for this contest so that people can give their comments and suggestions?Logan
#5
1. entries must fall into one of the categories.
2. entries must be the artists own work. no reskinning/tweaking someone else's q3 model and submitting it. multiple artists can work on a single entry, but each must be credited in the readme and share any prize.
3. each model must have both a walk AND a run cycle.
4. entries must include a readme with authors name and email, or they'll be ineligible.
5. entries must be received by xxxxx xx, 2002.
6. each model must have at least one skin.
7. oh yeah, models must be torque ready (ill need some help here, as i've no idea what torque format is)
guidelines:
1. entries should reflect the feel of the concept art and the setting (medieval/fantasy).
2. humanoid models should be below (2000? whats a good # here?)
3. death animations, sounds, multiple skins, etc. are encouraged but not required.
im sure im forgetting scads of stuff, but heres a start.
03/04/2002 (11:08 am)
i was kind of hoping for suggestions first, since the ideas only half-baked so far 8P, and b/c i hoped the modelers would speak out and tell me what they want, but here goes1. entries must fall into one of the categories.
2. entries must be the artists own work. no reskinning/tweaking someone else's q3 model and submitting it. multiple artists can work on a single entry, but each must be credited in the readme and share any prize.
3. each model must have both a walk AND a run cycle.
4. entries must include a readme with authors name and email, or they'll be ineligible.
5. entries must be received by xxxxx xx, 2002.
6. each model must have at least one skin.
7. oh yeah, models must be torque ready (ill need some help here, as i've no idea what torque format is)
guidelines:
1. entries should reflect the feel of the concept art and the setting (medieval/fantasy).
2. humanoid models should be below (2000? whats a good # here?)
3. death animations, sounds, multiple skins, etc. are encouraged but not required.
im sure im forgetting scads of stuff, but heres a start.
#6
categories: I would use at most three categories (Characters, Vehicles, and Objects). If you want people to model a specific object then tell them that the subject matter is only one one subject (ie. dragon's, or futuristic soldiers). If you give people a wide range of subject matter to choose from it will make things more difficult to judge.
Polygon count: Set a polygon target for (and a maximum) for each model. Recommended Torque limitations are found all over the website.
Texture: Are people required to send in their textures? How many textures could they use? How big should the texture(s) be?
UVW Setup: Should people submit a UVW template of their unwrapped mesh? Or are they free to slap textures wherever they want with or without consideration to real-time rendering applications?
Torque Setup: This requires a lot of additional work on the artists. I think that this is a good idea in principle, but the extra work might scare people off (plus if they like the model that they are working on, they will likely end up continuing it afterwards to add it to Torque). Also, some artists would be warry about submitting completed work freely to someone that they hardly know or trust.
Animations: From what I understand, this is supposed to be a modeling contest, not a "create x object for Torque" contest. Again this would also scare off people due to the time involved in setting up everything for animation and then animating, and some artists might not want to hand over their 3d files.
Concept art: I would recommend against this, you should let the talent of the artist flow from their creativity and show up in their work.
Submitting: How do you want people to submit entries? Should they simply hand over all of their work from their 3D application (thus resulting in you having to open each model and examine it), or would you want them to submit screenshots (at 640x480) of various angles of their model? I would recommend against forcing people to submit their work in a 3D format, this will keep the artists happy, and it will make it a lot easier to judge submissions.
Prizes: Prizes are great at giving the extra nudge to an artists to participate in the contest? What would you give out?
Finally, remember that you should keep the contest very simple and open so that people will want to participate to show off their work. The more rules and stipulations that you add, the less people will want to particpate.
Logan
03/04/2002 (12:20 pm)
Here are my thoughts and comments...categories: I would use at most three categories (Characters, Vehicles, and Objects). If you want people to model a specific object then tell them that the subject matter is only one one subject (ie. dragon's, or futuristic soldiers). If you give people a wide range of subject matter to choose from it will make things more difficult to judge.
Polygon count: Set a polygon target for (and a maximum) for each model. Recommended Torque limitations are found all over the website.
Texture: Are people required to send in their textures? How many textures could they use? How big should the texture(s) be?
UVW Setup: Should people submit a UVW template of their unwrapped mesh? Or are they free to slap textures wherever they want with or without consideration to real-time rendering applications?
Torque Setup: This requires a lot of additional work on the artists. I think that this is a good idea in principle, but the extra work might scare people off (plus if they like the model that they are working on, they will likely end up continuing it afterwards to add it to Torque). Also, some artists would be warry about submitting completed work freely to someone that they hardly know or trust.
Animations: From what I understand, this is supposed to be a modeling contest, not a "create x object for Torque" contest. Again this would also scare off people due to the time involved in setting up everything for animation and then animating, and some artists might not want to hand over their 3d files.
Concept art: I would recommend against this, you should let the talent of the artist flow from their creativity and show up in their work.
Submitting: How do you want people to submit entries? Should they simply hand over all of their work from their 3D application (thus resulting in you having to open each model and examine it), or would you want them to submit screenshots (at 640x480) of various angles of their model? I would recommend against forcing people to submit their work in a 3D format, this will keep the artists happy, and it will make it a lot easier to judge submissions.
Prizes: Prizes are great at giving the extra nudge to an artists to participate in the contest? What would you give out?
Finally, remember that you should keep the contest very simple and open so that people will want to participate to show off their work. The more rules and stipulations that you add, the less people will want to particpate.
Logan
#7
http://www.3dap.com/hlp
Mostly sci fi ship models, but they run periodic contests.
03/04/2002 (12:38 pm)
Speaking of contests, these guys do it all the time:http://www.3dap.com/hlp
Mostly sci fi ship models, but they run periodic contests.
#8
im not a modeler myself, so i could easily be wrong, but isn't 256x256 the 'standard' and 512x512 the 'limit'?
"UVW Setup: Should people submit a UVW template of their unwrapped mesh?"
dunno what a UVW setup is, sorry.
"Or are they free to slap textures wherever they want with or without consideration to real-time rendering applications?"
no, that doesn't sound good :). i want the models to be usable, not eye-candy.
"Torque Setup: This requires a lot of additional work on the artists."
how much extra work would this entail? the idea here is to create models to be used in torque, not showpieces.
"Also, some artists would be wary about submitting completed work freely to someone that they hardly know or trust."
i want to use the models in my game, and have the right to edit them for that purpose. if it helps, id be willing to use them in a demo version only, and no other release. of course all this would be in writing. where is the trust issue?
"Animations: From what I understand, this is supposed to be a modeling contest, not a "create x object for Torque" contest. Again this would also scare off people due to the time involved in setting up everything for animation and then animating, and some artists might not want to hand over their 3d files."
my fault, i understand the problem now = actually the idea IS a "create x object for Torque" contest. more accurately a "Create an URGE Demo Character Contest." sorry for the lack of communication there.
"Concept art: I would recommend against this, you should let the talent of the artist flow from their creativity and show up in their work."
again, my fault. the entries would be scored on how well they match the flavor of the world and concept art. i understand that this limits the creative latitude open to artists, but on any project, thats sort of the idea. thats what artists do, they meet the clients expectations.
prizes: i want to be careful before i throw around numbers, because i dont want to eat my foot here. obviously, fewer categories will mean better prizes. im open to suggestion here. at the very least, a copy of torque to first place in each category.
03/04/2002 (1:00 pm)
"Texture: Are people required to send in their textures? How many textures could they use? How big should the texture(s) be? "im not a modeler myself, so i could easily be wrong, but isn't 256x256 the 'standard' and 512x512 the 'limit'?
"UVW Setup: Should people submit a UVW template of their unwrapped mesh?"
dunno what a UVW setup is, sorry.
"Or are they free to slap textures wherever they want with or without consideration to real-time rendering applications?"
no, that doesn't sound good :). i want the models to be usable, not eye-candy.
"Torque Setup: This requires a lot of additional work on the artists."
how much extra work would this entail? the idea here is to create models to be used in torque, not showpieces.
"Also, some artists would be wary about submitting completed work freely to someone that they hardly know or trust."
i want to use the models in my game, and have the right to edit them for that purpose. if it helps, id be willing to use them in a demo version only, and no other release. of course all this would be in writing. where is the trust issue?
"Animations: From what I understand, this is supposed to be a modeling contest, not a "create x object for Torque" contest. Again this would also scare off people due to the time involved in setting up everything for animation and then animating, and some artists might not want to hand over their 3d files."
my fault, i understand the problem now = actually the idea IS a "create x object for Torque" contest. more accurately a "Create an URGE Demo Character Contest." sorry for the lack of communication there.
"Concept art: I would recommend against this, you should let the talent of the artist flow from their creativity and show up in their work."
again, my fault. the entries would be scored on how well they match the flavor of the world and concept art. i understand that this limits the creative latitude open to artists, but on any project, thats sort of the idea. thats what artists do, they meet the clients expectations.
prizes: i want to be careful before i throw around numbers, because i dont want to eat my foot here. obviously, fewer categories will mean better prizes. im open to suggestion here. at the very least, a copy of torque to first place in each category.
#9
1.human
2.humanoid
3.monster
the sex, race, etc. would be up to the entrant. as far as concept art goes, the idea is i dont want W40K Orks in the humanoid category. not that i want to specifically design some characters and have the artists slavishly replicating them in 3d.
oh yeah, thanks for the feedback logan
03/04/2002 (1:03 pm)
instead of the above categories, maybe1.human
2.humanoid
3.monster
the sex, race, etc. would be up to the entrant. as far as concept art goes, the idea is i dont want W40K Orks in the humanoid category. not that i want to specifically design some characters and have the artists slavishly replicating them in 3d.
oh yeah, thanks for the feedback logan
#10
03/04/2002 (1:15 pm)
oh wait, duh, i guess the problem is if the models are to be torque ready, the modeler needs torque, sort of negating the reason to join the contest. drat. can modelers be reasonably expected to make something torque ready without the engine? can the demo be used for this?
#11
I think this would be a great way to get GG's name out in the art world. I think this is a great opportunity for GG to gain some respectability in the world of computer art.
Prizes are a problem though. Very few artists probably want 200,000 lines of C++ code. :) And I doubt that GG can afford too much in the way of cash prizes... :/ Does anyone else have any ideas?
03/04/2002 (1:31 pm)
I say, and no offense to you Jeff, that we scratch your idea almost completely, and just go with a standard, simple modelling contest, in which the rights to everything created remain the artist's. Keep simple categories as L. Foster suggested, maybe even keep his idea of "Character, Vehicle, or Object".I think this would be a great way to get GG's name out in the art world. I think this is a great opportunity for GG to gain some respectability in the world of computer art.
Prizes are a problem though. Very few artists probably want 200,000 lines of C++ code. :) And I doubt that GG can afford too much in the way of cash prizes... :/ Does anyone else have any ideas?
#12
in my mind, a garage games modeling contest is a great, but seperate idea. the two (seperate) need not be mutually exclusive. but im not proposing sponsoring the gg modeling contest line of thought, except maybe with feedback.
i was also thinking of cash substitution if the winner doesn't want a copy of torque.
03/04/2002 (1:52 pm)
i was proposing paying for the torque engine and the cash prizes out of my own pocket. i thought i said that clearly, but let me reiterate - im only asking that gg post a notice of the contest somewhere, and for feedback from the community.in my mind, a garage games modeling contest is a great, but seperate idea. the two (seperate) need not be mutually exclusive. but im not proposing sponsoring the gg modeling contest line of thought, except maybe with feedback.
i was also thinking of cash substitution if the winner doesn't want a copy of torque.
#13
03/04/2002 (1:56 pm)
oh yeah, no offense taken, i want the feedback.
#14
Jeff wants some models for his game. He's willing to take all submissions that fit his needs, and is paying for the chosen models by way of prizes and/or cash. He wants to be able to use these models for a (possibly money-making) game without further strings other than a possible credit. He wants to be able to tweak them as well. And he is laying this unusual idea out to see what people think.
You're thinking "BOY. He doesn't want much does he?" (spoken in full sarcasm mode).
And you know what my response is? I truly think it is a reasonable idea. Look at it this way: he wants to contract for models, and he is paying only for what is good. Admittedly this may result in some artists wasting their time, but I think he is going for those unknowns that could use a bit of portfolio anyway. I'd go for it if I was half an artist.
Along the way, GG and Torque get some needed PR exposure, and mebbe some new modellers hanging around. And the only person laying out any real cash is Jeff. A mention on a website costs the site nearly nothing.
Did you guys really not get that general idea from the initial post? Go for it Jeff. For a newbie artist, this is a good chance to get some visibility, and for you a reasonable (and I thought imaginative) way to get some needed models from a modelling community that seems to be mostly in hiding waiting for the 'big break'.
Am I missing the boat here, Jeff?
And if anyone is offended as an artist by my outlook, I honestly apologize. I'm a coder. What do I know?
03/04/2002 (2:13 pm)
Mebbe that will clear it up. If not, how about this:Jeff wants some models for his game. He's willing to take all submissions that fit his needs, and is paying for the chosen models by way of prizes and/or cash. He wants to be able to use these models for a (possibly money-making) game without further strings other than a possible credit. He wants to be able to tweak them as well. And he is laying this unusual idea out to see what people think.
You're thinking "BOY. He doesn't want much does he?" (spoken in full sarcasm mode).
And you know what my response is? I truly think it is a reasonable idea. Look at it this way: he wants to contract for models, and he is paying only for what is good. Admittedly this may result in some artists wasting their time, but I think he is going for those unknowns that could use a bit of portfolio anyway. I'd go for it if I was half an artist.
Along the way, GG and Torque get some needed PR exposure, and mebbe some new modellers hanging around. And the only person laying out any real cash is Jeff. A mention on a website costs the site nearly nothing.
Did you guys really not get that general idea from the initial post?
Am I missing the boat here, Jeff?
And if anyone is offended as an artist by my outlook, I honestly apologize. I'm a coder. What do I know?
#15
and like i said, if it makes people more easy about it, i would be willing to limit the models SOLELY to the (free) demo, so they know that i wont be making cash directly off of them. if the (free) demo gets picked up, ill create new content for the game. and again, i dont want or need ownership of the characters, just permission to use (in the demo). and everything will be credited in an easy to find place on the demo. im not looking to rip anyone off, or ride anyones back to 'stardom' or something, or take credit for someone elses work. im not a modeler yet, but i am a trained artist, and i have ethics (more like sympathy for fellow artists).
03/04/2002 (2:33 pm)
thanks tim for spelling it out better than i did :).and like i said, if it makes people more easy about it, i would be willing to limit the models SOLELY to the (free) demo, so they know that i wont be making cash directly off of them. if the (free) demo gets picked up, ill create new content for the game. and again, i dont want or need ownership of the characters, just permission to use (in the demo). and everything will be credited in an easy to find place on the demo. im not looking to rip anyone off, or ride anyones back to 'stardom' or something, or take credit for someone elses work. im not a modeler yet, but i am a trained artist, and i have ethics (more like sympathy for fellow artists).
#16
You talking to me? You keep saying Jeff. GarageGames is not taking part in this discussion. Our position was made clear in my post above.
EDIT: We have some announcements coming at the CGDC that will make this look like child's play. I can't say more than that right now.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/04/2002 (2:45 pm)
Tim,You talking to me? You keep saying Jeff. GarageGames is not taking part in this discussion. Our position was made clear in my post above.
EDIT: We have some announcements coming at the CGDC that will make this look like child's play. I can't say more than that right now.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#17
03/04/2002 (3:10 pm)
my name is Jeff
#18
Thanks for the announcement that our lives and ideas are meaninglessly simple-minded and small-scaled Mr. Tunnel... ;) (j/k)
Anyway, Mr. Highsmith:
I DO believe that the ideas are mutually exclusive. The FIRST modelling competition will leave the most important impression. We, as a community, cannot have you host the first competition because of your conditions (you get to use the model, must be these types of characters, etc.) It simply sets a bad precedent for any future garage games modelling contests (it seems too selfish) Oh, its a perfectly fine idea and all, but other people might see it as just one person here using artists to, in effect, steal their art. I dont see it that way, I like your initiative with the prizes, its just that I dont want other artists thinking that.
You see where I am coming from?
03/04/2002 (3:38 pm)
His name IS jeff... perhaps we should use more formal names. :)Thanks for the announcement that our lives and ideas are meaninglessly simple-minded and small-scaled Mr. Tunnel... ;) (j/k)
Anyway, Mr. Highsmith:
I DO believe that the ideas are mutually exclusive. The FIRST modelling competition will leave the most important impression. We, as a community, cannot have you host the first competition because of your conditions (you get to use the model, must be these types of characters, etc.) It simply sets a bad precedent for any future garage games modelling contests (it seems too selfish) Oh, its a perfectly fine idea and all, but other people might see it as just one person here using artists to, in effect, steal their art. I dont see it that way, I like your initiative with the prizes, its just that I dont want other artists thinking that.
You see where I am coming from?
#19
at no point did i suggest that the "URGE Demo Character Creation Contest" (copyright and TM JHighsmith7, all rights reserved, offer void where prohibited) represent the will of the community, or the best artist of the community, etc. see tims post above for more details, he said it better than i did. i dont think i said "gg contest" or "best of torque community" at any point. see above again.
anyone who would think i want to steal his or her art has been misinformed. i dont agree that having multiple contests is a bad thing :) call me crazy, its just me. and why not stay flexible: enter a single character/model into multiple contests?
and btw, im ALL for a community modeling contest. if its good for the community, its good for me too. i thought my contest up mostly for characters for my demo of course, but also because i'd like to see some of that polycount talent come torque's way.
03/04/2002 (4:13 pm)
from a garage games' point of view, i can understand your point, in terms of what is the first contest, etc. please refer to my comments that it wont come due for 3-4 months, and Mr. Tunnel's subsequent post that gg's announcements will make this look like child's play. the last thing i want to do is steal anyone's thunder, so as always im open to suggestions on timing or anything else.at no point did i suggest that the "URGE Demo Character Creation Contest" (copyright and TM JHighsmith7, all rights reserved, offer void where prohibited) represent the will of the community, or the best artist of the community, etc. see tims post above for more details, he said it better than i did. i dont think i said "gg contest" or "best of torque community" at any point. see above again.
anyone who would think i want to steal his or her art has been misinformed. i dont agree that having multiple contests is a bad thing :) call me crazy, its just me. and why not stay flexible: enter a single character/model into multiple contests?
and btw, im ALL for a community modeling contest. if its good for the community, its good for me too. i thought my contest up mostly for characters for my demo of course, but also because i'd like to see some of that polycount talent come torque's way.
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
I love the idea of a contest or a community supported 3D model starter like Ryan Ackley's project though.
Jeff Tunnell GG