for those with poor english skills

#1 Perfect solution. I hadnt thought of that.

Thank you. :)

#2 Well, long sentences such as yours are also a problem for people that are poor with enlish skills ;P
me says....

Actually, you are right, but who would be interested in doing public relations job for a start up company here?

#3 i agree wholeheartedly that some non-native english speakers hold forth better than americans. my apartment's porch was recently being repaired and the carpenter left me a note to let me know what was going on. it was very articulate for a carpenter, and i thought to myself, maybe there's hope for south carolina yet (a black hole of ignorance i have long suffered not-so-silently). then when i met him the next day, he greeted me with a german accent. i laughed to myself and it was all i could do not to laugh out loud. bottom line: americans get more ignorant every day. i saw a piece on how the tv news firms are trying to make the news more attractive to younger viewers. they were going about it all wrong. to make the news something the youth will watch, they need to add a window constantly playing rap videos, get the tops off those pretty anchor ladies, and most important of all, replace that boring news with tom green or jackass.

if anyone thinks im wrong that english skills are rapidly declining in america, here's an example:

english ten years ago: "Well, were your problems getting in the way of your work?"

todays accepted standard: "well, was your problems getting in the way of your work?"

maybe i just need to move out of the bible belt. its making me bitter about humanity :).

#4 heh, this is funny, what you suggest is a great idea, but dont get your hopes up, the "bad english" thing has been around since the begining, and will never go away...

#5 Alright, but what happens when the person needs to ask a technical question?

#6 could it have something to do with left-brain vs. right brain? dont reading/writing come from one side, math from the other, and arent most people dominant in one or the other? i taught myself to read at 4, and cant even contemplate programming, so im pretty sure math aint in the genes for me. does this make ANY sense?

oh yeah, for those who genuinely want to improve their writing, i'd suggest using a spell checker.

#7 I'm not so sure how much truth there is to the whole left-brain/right-brain thing. I was reading at 4 too, but I ended up being an Electrical Engineering major that wants to be a programmer. Some people are creative and not very math/science orientated. Some people are the opposite, and then there are the people who are good at both and those who are miserable at both... I've met plenty of people that fall into all of these groups - both native and non-native english speakers.

I would hate it if the standard for communication was Dutch or Chinese or Russian, personally. So I have some sympathy for non-native english speakers. But when you want to be serious about something business related (which if you plan on making money from an indy game, you should be), it's necessary for you to put your best face forward, and if that means getting someone that has a better control over the language than you then so be it.

It's not a matter of pride or anything, it's a matter of showmanship and common sense. I know it's something I'd want to do if I had to pitch a product to someone that was only fluent in a language I didn't speak.

=)

-noh

#8 I find a this post not only offencive but also very narrow minded....

I, myself am not known for my great spelling or grammar, i do however have some other qualities. I hate it to be judged on my spelling by people who can't match me in my true skills but also can't even pronounche 1 word in my native languege, i'm not even talking about writing.

Yeah, yeah i made some more spelling and grammar mistakes, sue me...

You all think you are so freaking great speaking/writing English, please try to do all of this in Dutch or German, Frence, Spanish what ever. You wouldn't have such a good solution....

Al i want to say is please don't go pissing on all us "non" English speaking people, since you probably are ordering your burger in English when ever you are in a non english speaking country....

You are not better than us and spelling says nothing about art or programming so you better read all those messages full, of grammar and spelling mistakes, maybe you can learn something....

#9 I seriously doubt this thread was started to insult non-native english speakers, despite how you might have interpreted it. This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people and you're absolutely right that most of us couldn't speak your native language as well as you speak ours.

Nonetheless, I feel the origial post makes a valid point. Not just for non-native english speakers but for any group of people. There are millions of people in the world whose job is solely to make a company look professional. Public relations, technical writers, spokespersons... If we had the engineers who designed a product write the users manuals or instructions... well just imagine how hard programming your VCR would be then.

It's especially important in the indy gaming world where you're the underdog and big companies would rather throw a few million dollars at the next Quake clone than a few hundred thousand at some unproven idea. If you can't convince someone to try your product, it's not going to do well... period. Whether or not this is due to grammatical errors due to being a non-native speaker or just being a bad writer makes no difference, the fact remains... it's important that you present your product and your company as best you can... and if that means asking/hiring someone to help then so be it... it just gives you more credibility to potential publishers and players.

I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted by these posts, but it's just the way the world works... Personally I only wish I were as fluent in another language as most of the non-native english speakers I meet online...

oh well
-noh

#10 This thread is neither offensive nor narrow-minded in its intent. It simply points out a fundamental part of human nature. As much as it sickens me to say it, the appearance of competence and/ or skill in a given area count almost as much as the competence and/ or skill themselves.

Given that, on the net at least, your primary appearance is dictated by your spelling, your punctuation, and your grammar; if you present yourself poorly then others will most likely think poorly of you. (I know there are a lot of people out there who like to think they're open-minded when it comes to this sort of thing but let's face it, it's hard to take someone who says "my gam idea wil q0wn u it r so 1337" seriously).

For non-english speakers who are using english-based sites (such as this one) to promote their games, engines, or game ideas, it is a very good idea to make use of someone who can speak the language -- even if it's only to make public announcements and the like. Not only will your posts be easier to read and interpret but some people who would normally skip the post because of its less than perfect content might actually start reading them... then again...

#11 Good post, and wise words. I would however expand the definition of the problem, it's not just bad grammar and spelling, it's poor communication in general.

The number one killer during development is poor communication, at least in my experience. If the art director can't explain what he needs to the artists, and the programmer can't find out exactly what featureset the artists need in the content pipeline, problems will arise.

#12 Al though you all might have some valid points i still concider this one of those topics in the line of "I need cash to develop". Things like this are not essential for a good game at least not in the beginning. I have yet to see 1 game here, which is in a stage that it actually needs all of this. Sooner or later some might reach that point, but the once nagging about it in pre-, pre-, pre-, alpha stage will surly not.

I rather see people make more spelling and grammer mistakes and produce some quality work, than the other way around. Less talk more work, ohh and don't forget a little fun. Reading over your post 5 times or having to submit it to some spokes person will surly take a way alot of fun. It will not only limit the fun but also the creativity and the direct intuitive thinking and expressing for which i like these forums and projects. People have to be able to ventilate their thoughts on any subject, who cares about some spelling mistakes. The fact that you can speak to a whole Indy development team working on a game is the big diference to any pro development team out there. Taking a way just that by putting in all kinds of rules will mean loosing one of the most apealing things about indy development.

I believe that trying to act like a pro team will actually have a bad invluence on that team. For me personaly this is not a way to make big money or an other step closer to becomming a pro, i want to have fun and do the stuff i like doing . This topic connects perfectly to the post Jeff posted a few days ago about not seeing a whole lot of new i deas. My guess is that it's these kind of rules people are putting down for them self that are limiting new game ideas.

All i am trying to say is, try to focus on content rather than on the way you present your self. What good will a perfect presentation do when you have nothing to present???

Sorry if i came across a little harsh yesterday, it wasn't intended, i just had a bad day...

#13 If I showed most of those so-called "well written" English language posts to my mother, she wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of them. That's because they are in Jargon and not actually in English.

It's important if you want to communicate to the general public to be or to hire someone who can write effective communicatory prose--in English if you wish to reach English speaking customers.

Here in these fora we write informally, as between fellow engineers, and certain stylistic infelicities are actually desirable. But we also strive to understand what we find here and focus on the intent rather than the beauty of the prose.

However it is inarguably true that more accurate word use communicates concepts more accurately, and one should therefore strive to master whatever tongue one writes in.

It is well known that those who cannot write simply, clearly, and correctly in their own language cannot program well. I would never hire one of these American language-manglers. But English as a requirement seems bigotry--typical American xenophobia.

A Czech posting here in broken English communicates earnestness and an impressive command of a language far removed from his native tongue.

What my mother would see first in your post is poor English skills and pretension: "so far off as to sometimes infer entirely different words"

Imply.

"I've met people from European countries that were able to write in a more articulate and grammatically correct manner than many Americans."

I've also met many English people.

"Poor grammar and spelling infer to the reader ignorance and a careless attitude."

"Infer"? I can't quite guess what word I should infer belongs there. "Communicate" perhaps?

#14 "Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer." --Edsger W. Dijkstra

#15 interesting thread here. didnt think writing skills were that important, but if that there dyeekster said so...8P

#16 As with all writing, the responses tell you what you forgot or miscommunicated. I haven't tried to be pretentious, nor am I trying to insult anyone. It just illustrates how sensitive people are to the topic.

A point that I tried to make and apparently did not cover clearly enough was that my post was aimed at the representation of projects. I don't think any team needs or wants a middleman handling all of their internal communication. That's ridiculous. What I am talking about is more along the lines of the "Community Representatives" employed by many professional developers.

Having your project's external communication handled by someone with good writing skills and showmanship makes a difference in how that communication is perceived. I used English because that has become the "universal" language of the world. Those who are non-native speakers can like it or hate it, but that simple fact remains. Doubly so when applied to the Internet.

Those who are doing projects for fun don't need to worry about their image much. However, there are a lot of people that are members of the GG community who are doing it in the hopes of being taken seriously and finding employment in the gaming industry. When I wrote this topic originally I had in mind the posts of different individuals who claimed to have been working on a project for a while and were trying to take it to the next level. When you ask people to take you seriously, they will look at how you present yourself. If you present yourself badly you have told others that you don't care about your work enough to present it better.

Once again, my post was never directed at the programmers, artists, or others posting ideas, code snippets, tutorials, or the like. That always has been, is now, and probably always will be an informal arena of interaction. As it should be.

However, if you are trying to sell yourself, sell your project, run ads, write a plan, document a project, or the like you should really consider a representative if your language skills for your target audience aren't good. Those are elements that project image.

Lastly, I give Myrmidon as an example. They present their project extremely well with good communication and extensive well-written documentation. They are an excellent example of a team trying to go pro and in turn presenting a professional image to do so.

#17 Well Daniel when you are refering to presentation of a project i agree with you. Good represetation of a project is a full time job. Sorry if i misunderstood your meaning, still i stand by my statements though they seem horrible out of place, projecting it to your true intentions.

I could start giving you a whole list of reasons why i reacted the way i did, but they are not all that intresting. all i can say is sorry. I'm just not so good with wrting or reading so it seems =O)

To add to your remark on poor spelling of representational work i would like to point out that it is not just the writing that can screw up a presentation. When for example, you look at the sites of some well respected company's i find that both on the visual side and navigation they leave a lot to be desired. All they seem to worry about is some nifty flash animation and that's it. Remarks and questions on and about just websites an represetation alone could fill a whole forum (and it does on other sites).