Despairing about TSE - not a flame
by Alfred Norris · in General Discussion · 12/25/2005 (9:56 am) · 24 replies
Guys our team is reaching a crossroads. We've done a lot of work for our MMO project and things are going decently well. We started with another engine and then switched to TGE. Since we knew that TGE wouldnt have the graphics we needed, we made the jump to TSE.
The problem is that TSE isnt progressing. I realize you guys have to stay in business...and i wish you success with Marble Madness or whatever it is on the Xbox360, but when will you be reaching any milestones for TSE?
Ive got two programmers and our level design lead that are threatening mutiny if we dont start considering changing engines. Thats not a threat...just a description of my situation.
What's going on with TSE??
The problem is that TSE isnt progressing. I realize you guys have to stay in business...and i wish you success with Marble Madness or whatever it is on the Xbox360, but when will you be reaching any milestones for TSE?
Ive got two programmers and our level design lead that are threatening mutiny if we dont start considering changing engines. Thats not a threat...just a description of my situation.
What's going on with TSE??
#2
Second of all, im just making a general inquiry based on the fact that our programmers are saying that the milestones arent coming as fast as they should be.
Surely in the general forum information on general topics is available right?
12/25/2005 (12:02 pm)
First of all, I dont have the license one of our programmers does, so I dont have the login.Second of all, im just making a general inquiry based on the fact that our programmers are saying that the milestones arent coming as fast as they should be.
Surely in the general forum information on general topics is available right?
#3
I also think out of respect for the TSE staff and the fact that it's Early Adopter / pre launch program that dirty laundry be hashed out in private.
12/25/2005 (12:28 pm)
Yea I was just pointing to a good post where GG commented. They have mentioned TSE in several posts recently. If you look a few pages back you should see some of the heated TSE posts... maybe even in some Xbox 360 posts.I also think out of respect for the TSE staff and the fact that it's Early Adopter / pre launch program that dirty laundry be hashed out in private.
#4
12/25/2005 (2:54 pm)
Point taken. Discretion is the better part of valor.
#5
A. The GG Team is doing a damn good job. They've progressed with TSE alot, I remember when it was a simple bump-mapping/better terrain. Now, they have water, new material systems, better shaders, etc etc. They're working as fast as they can.
B. If your programmers need a feature into TSE, they should be skilled enough to do it themselves! I mean, TGE/TSE isn't that hard, it is once you learn it a very easy engine. The GG Crews put alot of thought into its structure. I've been around TGE for 2 years, and in the first year, I knew TONS of it. Just by reading information.
C. Your programmers should be smart enough to setup a proper system to get/merge head. When I get TSE, i know what i'm getting into. I'm going to setup a system to merge the head into my current, and retain the changes. Just because GG doesn't update the site every other day with completed milestones, doesn't mean they arn't on the head.
D. Changeing engines wount do you any good, they'll find some excuse about the next engine, and the next. Your project leader right? Tell them to deal with it, if they leave. So be in, theres plenty of talent in the moding communities.
Thats just my 5 cents.
12/25/2005 (5:55 pm)
Personally, i'm the lead-programmer for my team, aswell as project leader, and this is how I feel.A. The GG Team is doing a damn good job. They've progressed with TSE alot, I remember when it was a simple bump-mapping/better terrain. Now, they have water, new material systems, better shaders, etc etc. They're working as fast as they can.
B. If your programmers need a feature into TSE, they should be skilled enough to do it themselves! I mean, TGE/TSE isn't that hard, it is once you learn it a very easy engine. The GG Crews put alot of thought into its structure. I've been around TGE for 2 years, and in the first year, I knew TONS of it. Just by reading information.
C. Your programmers should be smart enough to setup a proper system to get/merge head. When I get TSE, i know what i'm getting into. I'm going to setup a system to merge the head into my current, and retain the changes. Just because GG doesn't update the site every other day with completed milestones, doesn't mean they arn't on the head.
D. Changeing engines wount do you any good, they'll find some excuse about the next engine, and the next. Your project leader right? Tell them to deal with it, if they leave. So be in, theres plenty of talent in the moding communities.
Thats just my 5 cents.
#6
I got TSE not long ago and all this while had been struggling to understand TGE and TSE.
I have not got to a point where I can contribute to the community yet.
But as far as anyone's concern, i think GG did a great job and the community has been of great help especially to the EARLY ADOPTION of TSE.
Let's put it this way, most stuff works in TGE but not all are ported over to TSE.
You have full access to C++ engine. If you can't wait, port it over yourself.
If you need better graphics, just add new shaders.
If not, GFX is fully accessible if you need to tweak particles or other stuff.
For example, the fireballatmosphere from 1.4 (I port it over to TSE no problem)
Lighting is not fully implemented but I guess it's easy to implement once is done.
If there's a bottleneck, the team should solve it or move around it.
Not abandand it. TSE is worth exploring.
12/26/2005 (3:58 am)
I agree with Chris.I got TSE not long ago and all this while had been struggling to understand TGE and TSE.
I have not got to a point where I can contribute to the community yet.
But as far as anyone's concern, i think GG did a great job and the community has been of great help especially to the EARLY ADOPTION of TSE.
Let's put it this way, most stuff works in TGE but not all are ported over to TSE.
You have full access to C++ engine. If you can't wait, port it over yourself.
If you need better graphics, just add new shaders.
If not, GFX is fully accessible if you need to tweak particles or other stuff.
For example, the fireballatmosphere from 1.4 (I port it over to TSE no problem)
Lighting is not fully implemented but I guess it's easy to implement once is done.
If there's a bottleneck, the team should solve it or move around it.
Not abandand it. TSE is worth exploring.
#7
12/26/2005 (6:17 am)
I find it somewhat disrepspectful to complain about an engine that you haven't actually looked at yourself and say that it isn't progressing... 
#8
12/26/2005 (6:27 am)
We've been progressing pretty quickly with our demo on a project that is using TSE. There are a few major features still missing, though for the most part it's very functional. Would I like to see things getting done quicker? Sure. But unless you guys are shipping your product in the near future it shouldn't be a problem. Try to keep your code separate from the main files as much as you can and keep a log of all of the changes you will need to make. When a new version comes out it will make it a lot easier to port to. The things that are missing BTW your programmers could hack in themselves. I'd rather wait for the real lighting system and shadows, but if you had to implement your own you could.
#9
12/26/2005 (6:47 am)
@Jonathan: "im just making a general inquiry based on the fact that our programmers are saying that the milestones arent coming as fast as they should be."
#10
It sounds like to me you have abunch of programmers that dont know what they are doing so they are just jumping around to different engines looking for the one that has everything already done for them. In that case checkout out RealmCrafter as it has everything already done for your programmers and they wont even need to lift there fingers.
The only reasion I am saying anything is because when I first started useing Torque 4/5 years ago I didnt know much about anything when it came to 3d programming / network programming. But over them 4/5 years I have picked up alot of information and learned alot about both. One thing that I really learned is there is no perfect end all solution that has everything predone for you and all you do is toss in nice graphics and its a finished game. You HAVE to be willing to add your changes in. Make the changes you need and add the features that are not done or will never be added in. Your programmers need to have the experience or willingness to learn or you will never finish with a complete project.
Jumping ship to find something new is never going to get your project finished. You need to sit down with your staff and just say "This is the engine we are useing. There will be no more switching." If your staff doesnt have the ability to add in the features you need then you need to find new / more staff members that have the ability and knowhow to do so.
TSE will never be a stock MMO creation engine. You will need some very talented Network Programmers and Graphic Artest that know what they are doing. More so if you ever want to see more then 100 people playing your game/project.
12/26/2005 (8:05 am)
I just want to point out that if you are trying to make a MMO Game with TSE and your programmers do not have the skill to add in what they need to the engine how do you ever plan to finish your project?It sounds like to me you have abunch of programmers that dont know what they are doing so they are just jumping around to different engines looking for the one that has everything already done for them. In that case checkout out RealmCrafter as it has everything already done for your programmers and they wont even need to lift there fingers.
The only reasion I am saying anything is because when I first started useing Torque 4/5 years ago I didnt know much about anything when it came to 3d programming / network programming. But over them 4/5 years I have picked up alot of information and learned alot about both. One thing that I really learned is there is no perfect end all solution that has everything predone for you and all you do is toss in nice graphics and its a finished game. You HAVE to be willing to add your changes in. Make the changes you need and add the features that are not done or will never be added in. Your programmers need to have the experience or willingness to learn or you will never finish with a complete project.
Jumping ship to find something new is never going to get your project finished. You need to sit down with your staff and just say "This is the engine we are useing. There will be no more switching." If your staff doesnt have the ability to add in the features you need then you need to find new / more staff members that have the ability and knowhow to do so.
TSE will never be a stock MMO creation engine. You will need some very talented Network Programmers and Graphic Artest that know what they are doing. More so if you ever want to see more then 100 people playing your game/project.
#11
reading between the lines... thats clearly condescending in tone, regardless of corresponding additions.
12/26/2005 (8:16 am)
@Cameron "The problem is that TSE isnt progressing. I realize you guys have to stay in business...and i wish you success with Marble Madness or whatever it is on the Xbox360, but when will you be reaching any milestones for TSE?"reading between the lines... thats clearly condescending in tone, regardless of corresponding additions.
#12
@Everyone Else: *hands you a fire extinguisher* Chill out. Their developers might be able to add what they need, but quite possibly have just never done game development before so as you already know, it's not a matter of them "just adding what they need" because they really need to learn the engine a lot more before they can start modifying it greatly. Either way, stop flaming him, GG are big boys and girls, they don't need a big brother to beat up the bullies who pick on them =P
12/26/2005 (9:18 am)
@Alfred: Why not just move back to TGE and then port over to TSE when it's released? GG didn't have to give us an EA version of TSE. They could have just made everyone wait until it got released. I want TSE to finish as much as the next guy, but I also want the Interiiors builder tool they are working on too and I want the RPG starter kit and I want... Santa might make good toys, but he sucks at programming, so the task is left to the GG staff. Move back to TGE and wait till TSE is done to move to it.@Everyone Else: *hands you a fire extinguisher* Chill out. Their developers might be able to add what they need, but quite possibly have just never done game development before so as you already know, it's not a matter of them "just adding what they need" because they really need to learn the engine a lot more before they can start modifying it greatly. Either way, stop flaming him, GG are big boys and girls, they don't need a big brother to beat up the bullies who pick on them =P
#13
GG has a great reputation built on years of making solid products and supporting them amazingly well. The community here is an even bigger boon, as they are helpful and often respond in minutes after posting.
Hats off to GG.
"TSE will never be a stock MMO creation engine. You will need some very talented Network Programmers and Graphic Artest that know what they are doing. More so if you ever want to see more then 100 people playing your game/project." - Of this I am sure. If we wanted to be spoonfed, we'd go to RealmCrafter. We're just struggling right now to find our footing.
Thanks for the perspective.
12/26/2005 (9:59 am)
All very good points. Let me apologize for any implicit or explicit digs by my post. That was not my intention. I apologize.GG has a great reputation built on years of making solid products and supporting them amazingly well. The community here is an even bigger boon, as they are helpful and often respond in minutes after posting.
Hats off to GG.
"TSE will never be a stock MMO creation engine. You will need some very talented Network Programmers and Graphic Artest that know what they are doing. More so if you ever want to see more then 100 people playing your game/project." - Of this I am sure. If we wanted to be spoonfed, we'd go to RealmCrafter. We're just struggling right now to find our footing.
Thanks for the perspective.
#14
I think that you should listen to your programmers. TSE isn't ready as an out of the box solution for game dev. GarageGames can make a game with it because they made the engine and know it inside and out, plus, they are pros already. For a new indie team, I don't think that TSE is a good way to go if you have milestones of your own to reach in the near future.
Now, Jeff Tunnell said in his Christmas post that GG plans to have TSE and Constructor both finished by the end of 2006. If you know the history of the communication of the development of both TSE and Constructor then you know that getting a firm finish date doesn't come lightly. If Jeff Tunnell actually says they plan to finish by the end of 2006, you can pretty much count on it unless some act of god happens to get in the way of development. GG has doubled their staff this year. They are burning the midnight oil getting these TSE and Constructor completed.
If you can wait a year then I think TSE is a great choice for your team. Not only will it be complete, but it will have an editor for dif and, if you have been watching TDN, you will see that it has amazingly easy to use documentation and tutorials.
With Constructor and TDN, TSE will be the choice of any indie with a brain in a year. With the obvious exception of those who are developing for linux and macs until the new OpenGL is finished. But, if you don't have that long to wait, don't loose your programmers over it. A good team is harder to find than a game engine. I think we all know that. That's why GarageGames is still primarily a community even before it is a company developing game dev software.
That's my 2 cents. As someone who put his game on the shelf to wait for TSE to be completed.
Also, I don't think that your programmers have anything wrong with them. They wouldn't need TSE if they could develop everything it is missing right now. And that's just rediculous to say anyway. Garage Games has repeated stated that people should dev with TGE until TSE is complete and then port to TSE. They stated that if you have a longer term project and plan to use TSE that you should dev with TGE. If you have a short term project, you should just stick with TGE.
I'm sorry you caught some flak about your question. There's a few people who are a bit testy about the whole thing due to the regular flame rants about the TSE not being completed. They are just defensive and for good reason. They don't mean any harm though.
12/26/2005 (10:08 am)
@Afred NorrisI think that you should listen to your programmers. TSE isn't ready as an out of the box solution for game dev. GarageGames can make a game with it because they made the engine and know it inside and out, plus, they are pros already. For a new indie team, I don't think that TSE is a good way to go if you have milestones of your own to reach in the near future.
Now, Jeff Tunnell said in his Christmas post that GG plans to have TSE and Constructor both finished by the end of 2006. If you know the history of the communication of the development of both TSE and Constructor then you know that getting a firm finish date doesn't come lightly. If Jeff Tunnell actually says they plan to finish by the end of 2006, you can pretty much count on it unless some act of god happens to get in the way of development. GG has doubled their staff this year. They are burning the midnight oil getting these TSE and Constructor completed.
If you can wait a year then I think TSE is a great choice for your team. Not only will it be complete, but it will have an editor for dif and, if you have been watching TDN, you will see that it has amazingly easy to use documentation and tutorials.
With Constructor and TDN, TSE will be the choice of any indie with a brain in a year. With the obvious exception of those who are developing for linux and macs until the new OpenGL is finished. But, if you don't have that long to wait, don't loose your programmers over it. A good team is harder to find than a game engine. I think we all know that. That's why GarageGames is still primarily a community even before it is a company developing game dev software.
That's my 2 cents. As someone who put his game on the shelf to wait for TSE to be completed.
Also, I don't think that your programmers have anything wrong with them. They wouldn't need TSE if they could develop everything it is missing right now. And that's just rediculous to say anyway. Garage Games has repeated stated that people should dev with TGE until TSE is complete and then port to TSE. They stated that if you have a longer term project and plan to use TSE that you should dev with TGE. If you have a short term project, you should just stick with TGE.
I'm sorry you caught some flak about your question. There's a few people who are a bit testy about the whole thing due to the regular flame rants about the TSE not being completed. They are just defensive and for good reason. They don't mean any harm though.
#15
There is a lot of work GG does on the product that us EA's don't even see because they want to do updates
that are not broken or destablize the TSE build.
GG's work on MB Ultra, xbox dev kit, and 1.4 will pay off for TSE owners...
So if you think GG is like sitting around drinking keg's of been saying "yea... let's make em wait on TSE
har har and btw let's make our website like everyone elses too".. is some of the crap they have been
getting the last few weeks.
If you have to argue about people making missions not even buying TGE for 100 bucks then you want gold at the same time. (You as in generica complainer not the original poster)...
Yea they like to work for free then make miracle products on time and ahead of schedule..
Yea GG is like santas lab.. little bit of magic dust and some helper dwarfs...
12/26/2005 (2:16 pm)
The reason I flamed him a bit is because he laid the egg on Christmas day...There is a lot of work GG does on the product that us EA's don't even see because they want to do updates
that are not broken or destablize the TSE build.
GG's work on MB Ultra, xbox dev kit, and 1.4 will pay off for TSE owners...
So if you think GG is like sitting around drinking keg's of been saying "yea... let's make em wait on TSE
har har and btw let's make our website like everyone elses too".. is some of the crap they have been
getting the last few weeks.
If you have to argue about people making missions not even buying TGE for 100 bucks then you want gold at the same time. (You as in generica complainer not the original poster)...
Yea they like to work for free then make miracle products on time and ahead of schedule..
Yea GG is like santas lab.. little bit of magic dust and some helper dwarfs...
#17
There is a lot of work GG does on the product that us EA's don't even see because they want to do updates
that are not broken or destablize the TSE build.
GG's work on MB Ultra, xbox dev kit, and 1.4 will pay off for TSE owners...
So if you think GG is like sitting around drinking keg's of been saying "yea... let's make em wait on TSE
har har and btw let's make our website like everyone elses too".. is some of the crap they have been
getting the last few weeks.
If you have to argue about people making missions not even buying TGE for 100 bucks then you want gold at the same time. (You as in generica complainer not the original poster)...
Yea they like to work for free then make miracle products on time and ahead of schedule..
Yea GG is like santas lab.. little bit of magic dust and some helper dwarfs..."
I have no idea what you are ranting about and really can't understand why you feel the need to so strongly defend the reputation of a company that isn't being attacked. Fanboyism really scares me away from the community.
12/26/2005 (3:18 pm)
"The reason I flamed him a bit is because he laid the egg on Christmas day...There is a lot of work GG does on the product that us EA's don't even see because they want to do updates
that are not broken or destablize the TSE build.
GG's work on MB Ultra, xbox dev kit, and 1.4 will pay off for TSE owners...
So if you think GG is like sitting around drinking keg's of been saying "yea... let's make em wait on TSE
har har and btw let's make our website like everyone elses too".. is some of the crap they have been
getting the last few weeks.
If you have to argue about people making missions not even buying TGE for 100 bucks then you want gold at the same time. (You as in generica complainer not the original poster)...
Yea they like to work for free then make miracle products on time and ahead of schedule..
Yea GG is like santas lab.. little bit of magic dust and some helper dwarfs..."
I have no idea what you are ranting about and really can't understand why you feel the need to so strongly defend the reputation of a company that isn't being attacked. Fanboyism really scares me away from the community.
#18
We'll dev with TGE and port over when the time is right.
Stick a fork in this thread :)
12/26/2005 (3:38 pm)
It's cool. Its hard to know what someone means over the internet and looking back I should have phrased things differently.We'll dev with TGE and port over when the time is right.
Stick a fork in this thread :)
#19
01/03/2006 (3:32 pm)
Now that the work on Marble Blast Ultra is done and people are back from a well deserved vacations you can expect the heat to get turned *way* up on TSE. There will be a slight delay as Brian and the team sort through all of the improvements that were made to MBU and integrate those cleanly back into stock TSE but trust me when I say they will be well worth the wait! There is going to be a *lot* happening in the near future with TSE =)
#20
01/03/2006 (3:56 pm)
Kick ass!
Torque Owner Vashner
Edit: Here www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=36948