What 3d modeling tool do you recomend?

#21 Silo and Wings3D are strictly modelers, but they also have some great UV layout tools. I heard about these tools from Maya and Lightwave users who use them for their better polygonal modeling toolsets (Maya's is weaker than Max and XSI and Lightwave does not have Edge support for modeling).

Both apps also have some unique or well implemented tools that even the high end apps are lacking. For example some peope use Wings3D just for its UV layout tools, especially for the Pelt Mapping tool. Silo has a great tool called the Topology Brush that allows you to "draw" topology and create a mesh from it. Many ZBrush users like to create extremely hi-resolution, detailed meshes for displacement or normal maps then use Silo to easily create a medium resolution mesh with animation friendly topology using Silo's Topology Brush.

However, these tools are designed for modeling and UV layout. You will still need another app for bones, rigging, enveloping, and animation. Probably for map generation as well, like Normal Maps. Bones and animation could probably be done in Milkshape, or Blender.

#22 Hi,

Im new to this forum. In the last years I've been introducing myself slowly to the world of 3D modelling.

Currently I own 3 very cheap pieces of software: Milkshape 3D, Ultimate Unwrap3D and CharacterFX.

I like them and I've been able to do everything I wanted with them.

My question here is: is there any reason why I should buy any of those uber expensive tools such as Maya or Max? What advantages do those profesional programs have over my cheap ones? I know they have extra tools and plugins that allow to do some things faster, but at the end of the day, can I really do anything with them that I currently cannot?

(basically Im refering to the field of game developing and low poly modelling).

Thx.

#23 If you can get everything done that you need with those apps then there is no need to worry about the higher end stuff. However, my focus is learning game production art techniques for current (TSE) and next generation game engines as well as cinematics, and that means using more advanced tools (not necessarily more expensive, Blender is free). I am also part of a team of four student artists who need to share resources to complete as much content as possible and hit milestones, this means using tools that make us as productive as possible, like XSI.

I have tried a few of the tools that you are using and they are fine, but I can list some advantages of the more advanced tools you are missing out on. You most likely will not be producing cinematics with your current toolset, but I must mention that a large part of the increase in cost for the higher end apps is for renderers like Mental Ray (used in many feature films) as well as dynamics, physics, and hair/fur engines. Those tools are still used for game development beyond cinematics. For example you could render static or animated textures or bake in global illumination and ambient occlusion to your textures and lightmaps, or even add hair and fur to your textures (as was done using Lightwave's shave/haircut in "Shadow of the Colossus" [url] http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=78011[/url] ). Beyond that, there are many additional tools (way too many to mention) for realtime content artists, but I could briefly cover a few (using XSI terms).

There are some free tools for creating normal maps, but you are going to need some modeling tools designed to create high resolution meshes to get the most out of those normal maps. For modelers there are subdivision surface, spline, and proportional modeling tools as well as realtime viewports that can handle millions of polygons (at least in in XSI and ZBrush). Along with those hi-res modeling tools there are tools to increase modeling productivity whether in high or low resolution, like bezier curves, deformers, topology tools, scripting and included auto-rigging tools that can be used to quickly test joint deformation.

For texturing you have UV mapping tools built right in so there is no need to switch apps. XSI will preserve your UVs between low and high resolution (subdivision surface) models. Ultimapper and Rendermap utilize Mental Ray to let users create normal maps, ambient occlusion maps, diffuse maps, global illumination maps, and so on from high resolution meshes and lighting setups. Check out this link to see some of these techniques being used ( www.pioroberson.com/tuts/tut_texturing_tricks.htm ). There is also the pelt mapping tool many people seem to enjoy for organic model UV layout.

For animation XSI and Maya have some amazing auto-rigging tools to speed things up. In particular I like the XSI spine. I also like using expressions to create custom controls for my rigs. I have even created some scripts to save a lot of time and there is a GATOR tool that can be used to transfer animations between characters. XSI really shines for animation and that is what it is best known for. There is a dopesheet, curve editor, shapes manager, and best of all the animation mixer for blending animations (it's like an audio or video editor with multiple tracks for blending media together, except your are blending animations together). Then there is the Ageia PhysX engine for rigid and soft body physics simulation. The partical engine can also be used for explosions, water, or even swarming flies (great for billboards and 2D games).

There is also dotXSI which lets developers plug their game engine into XSI so that artists can work directly within the engine. There is a video of an artist running through a game level adjusting terrain and altering models and animations of environment props and the main character, all from within XSI. I don't know of any developers currently doing this, but a company did announce it was adapting the Ogre3D engine.

I could just keep going on and on, but in the end the need for these tools depends on your project specifications. For someone like myself working on a portfolio geared towards current generation realtime engines and planning to work in engines like TSE with as much productivity as possible these tools are very enticing. Also note, that although I mostly spoke of XSI, apps like Maya, 3DS Max, Lightwave, and Blender have many equivalent tools.

Starting Jan. 1st, 2006 I will be starting my first .plan walking through the creation of a game character in XSI using a lot of the tools I mentioned. Hopefully it will eventually end up in TSE and you'll get a better idea of how the tools I mentioned can be used for game dev.

#24 Does XSI have a polygon reducer capability? I've played with the 4.2 mod version, but I'm waiting for the Torque exporter to come out before I purchase the commercial version.

#25 So far I like Silo. In my opinion it is very user friendly, to bad it doesn't have support for animations.
If I buy Silo for modeling what should I use for animations? MilkShape could be used for simple stuff, but what should be used for something more serious (imagine this: bot is running and throwing something, but something triggers him to turn his head in direction of another bot, all of that at once. Sometimes it is hard to translate thought directly from Croatian to English ).
Perhaps animating in Blender is less intimidating than modeling :)

If I am not mistaken Wings 3D users use wide variety of renderers. Does that mean that Wings don't have renderer, or its renderer sucks?

#26 Perhaps I have found solution for my animation interests. www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=8784

#27 For games and in particular indie developers a 500$ modeling/animation/rendering package is only available from Softimage. And the exporter is about to come soon, in developement by Dark Industries if i am not mistaken.

#28 @Joe

Thx for your post. It was very interesting for me. I still have several things to learn.

#29 There is no Polygon Reduction in the Foundation version of XSI, niether is there hair, not that this has been a issue for me.

The learning curve for XSI can be steep but there are lots of tutorials out there to help get yoo started.

Caligari Truespace 3 is availible free at at www.caligari.com , its the full version and can be used for commercial stuff as well as hobbyist, ver 4.3 was given away free on 3D World Magazine cover CD.

Gamespace I would avoid as there is a lot of anger and frustration being expressed over on the forums.

Caligari are just finalising Truespace 7 and seem to have been putting all there effort into it, rather than supporting their current toolset.

There are numerous free tools out there that can do the job, but there are none with the magical 'Make my model look great for me button' . which is a great pity, becuase sometimes I need it :)

So I would say in closing, Try the XSI Demo, use the Mod Tool and the tutorials to see how yoo get on with it.

In the end though its up to yoo to find and implement the tools, workflow and pipeline that suits yer needs and if there is a demo squeeze it until it squeals :)

I hope my ramblings are of some help.... back to my next XSI tutorial..sigh

Cheers
Garion
from Scotland
a Grumpy auld git

#30 If there is one piece of advice I can give someone new to 3d modeling (like myself) it's to give each of the modeling apps a try.

I've tried 3DS Max, gameSpace, Blender, Maya (own a copy) and now XSI.

For some reason, I get around in XSI a lot easier than any other modeling app. It just seems a little more intuitive or well thought out. Foundation version is fine for me, I don't think I'll ever need the hair module for my low-poly modeling :)

I believe I'm going to dump Maya for XSI 5.0. Now we just need to work around the DTS plugin problem.

Steve

#31 Another start with Blender. Who knows how long it will last. I must give it a fair chance this time; I have only best words for Silo, but lack of animation support makes me wonder. Idea of buying one tool for modeling and using Blender only for animations seems dumb. Sometimes dumb ideas give fast (and not so dumb) results.

Any comments?

#32 Why would you not model/animate in Blender? The latest release (2.40) has updated animation tools among other new features.

The only problem I have with Blender is the documentation is always behind. If you want to use the latest-and-greatest version you need to either play around with it yourself or wait until the documentation catches up with the latest stable release. I bought the Blender 2.3 guide and found out that when I used the latest version that items were moved making it harder to complete the tutorials in the book. I went back to version 2.31 (that's what the book uses) in order to finish the examples.

#33 I prefer using as few packages as possible as well, which is why I like XSI, no need for plugins, just XSI and Photoshop. Maybe I will add ZBrush eventually, but XSI does Hi-Res now too with the gigapolygon core.

Many people have been using multiple products for their workflow though. Some people model in Modo then animate in XSI. For a while there were combos like Model in Maya - Animate in Motionbuilder, Model in Max - Animate in Character Studio, Model in Lightwave - Animate in Messiah. It's just rare to find a product that does everything well. Production artists want to work fast so they don't mind using specialized apps like Silo or Modo or Motionbuilder if it speeds them up.

I wish you luck with Blender. Looks like the best app in your price range to me. But in the end, if you model twice as fast in Silo how much is that worth to you? Depends how many hours per week you are saving I think.

#34 When I first got Blender I was intimidated too. All those buttons and stuff, I didn't know where to start. But a friend of mine showed me an awesome tutorial and I learned te basics in a few hours. It's not that complicated once you get used to it. The tutorial is http://www.wikibooks.com/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro <-- Check it out. I had modelled a decent looking human (I beefed up the one they make in that tut) as my very first model! Well hop that tt helps, and I wish you the best of luck in finding a program you like.

#35 @Joe Bird:
Character Studio really isn't a separate "package", it's a plugin for max. And now when it's actually included with every license it's really just another part of max.

Oh, and motion builder is still very popular (and useful) when working with for example mocap data (that's at least the only situation I've come across it lately).

Basically I agree with you though; I try to use as few pieces of software as possible (but mostly because there's still huge problems associated with moving data between different formats, problems that eat up too much time when you have to fix your destroyed data). But as you said, if there's something that will save me time, I'll use it.

As for costs, well, there's two ways of looking at it I guess. If this is what you do for a living the only way to look at it would be "will this software that costs X save me enough hours to pay for itself?" Most of the time the answer is, yep. It will.

If you're just going to use the software as a "hobby" I'm assuming it gets slightly different as you're not really looking (at least not in the sort term) for any (financial) returns on your work so you'd have to go with what you can afford. You'd still have to consider what your own time (and frustration =) is worth to you though.

In either case, the top 3d software really are quite comparable these days. If you know how to use one of them (which on the other hand can take a LOT of time, but that's besides the point) you most likely won't have TOO much of a problem moving to another if you had to. I use max, but if a job required me to use maya, or XSI, or whatever it might slow me down slighty but the end results would be the same and eventually the speed would be up too.

Now we're getting a bit off topic though; The problem was to find a sub-$300 piece of software that works with torque. So far there aren't a whole lot of contenders =).

#36 Well... I am quite new to 3d modelling... but I have tried otu several programs to see what would be easiest to start out with... Ive tried XSI Mod Tool, 3ds Max, Maya (PLE), Gmax (which I would recommend instead of spending your money except it no longer exists), and now blender. Of the 3 main premium programs (XSI, Max, and Maya) I found 3ds max to be the most user friendly with the best tutorials... definately my choice over the others... but of course this is about a program under $300... and at the moment I would go along with the people who say save your money and go with blender 3d. For a free program it has alot of tutorials and information.

#37 I can highly recommend Silo. It is damn easy to use. And soon, sooon, will Silo 2 be announced. and for a pricetag of 109 dollar, you can't go wrong. Download the learning edition and try it out. http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/

#38 @Collin

May I ask what do you mean that Gmax no longer exist? Or do you mean their not making updates? GMAX is still offered here http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax the only thing is if you isn't already signed up for turbosquid you do have to sign up but it's free. Then register your copy and they send you a serial right away. That is if your still interested in it. I haven't really played with it myself.

#39 What is meant by "GMAX is no more" is that it's done - Discreet is not supporting it any longer.

Also, although GMAX is free, the exporters necessary to get your mesh out fo GMAX format and into something useful are/ were not.

Basically, unless you're modding a game that already has support for GMAX, forget it. You can bet you won't be seeing any more games that tout "GMAX enabled!" on the cover either.

#40 :( Sad. I remember when people was talking so highly of it and having great expectations. So I guess I am in the same boat as Romano. Even tho I like cinema but I don't think there is a plugin for it yet.