TSE status

#61 >>That is totally cutting edge... it will not be outdated. If you think that then you know NOTHING about how >>shader technology works. TSE when it's done and it's future will have almost unlimited potential for just >>about any kind of graphic effect one could imagine.

Randy, I would be very circumspect as well to go too much on the positive side as well. Truth is too little ppl ,
even a lot of the guys who post on those forums, in fact know shit about light / shading / materials in a engine
and the very complex interactions between them. So far , TSE has nothing groundbreaking in it. I said it before,
its a good engine, but

1. Atals seems to be a variant of ChunkLOD put in public domain by U. Thatcher
2. Shadergen like things is not a new technology pioneered by GG as many ppl do beleive. It was introduced eons ago. Its first incaration im aware of it is at least 2002.
3. Real problems for GG will be full dynamic lighting and shadows . This is where skill of programers will truly show. This milestone will (IF full dynamic lighting will be implemented) tax their attention to maximum, will require changes in more parts of the engine than any of the things they did before in TSE.
The things like engine speed they encountered during MBU Xbox360 devleopment will hunt them again.
Shadergen , scene graph, light management , everything will have to be touched again. And beleive me
there is a lot of work.

4. Rendering some polygon batches with some shader dont impress me much. What will impress me is to see
milestone 4 completed in time, not 3 years after Doom 3. You may say that TSE was as a EA out before Doom3 , but lets be realistical :P In its first incarnation TSE was pretty weaek, As it sits today , TSE has no
lighting solution at all. Same, adding support for SM 4.0 and geoemtry shaders for example will leave me cold, and Ill call it marketing bullshit, unless I see something really inteligent done with them.
TSE will impress me when Ill see it have a unified, modern , fast and powerfull lighting solution, able to handle
multiple types of light sources, and mutiple type materials + shadows for all types of light sources supported, whithout glitches.

If all they can come with is a solution at the level of Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow, like Josh said, then unfortunately .... its nothing to be impressed. Years pass , gentlemens.
Having ssupport for SM 4.0 means shit, Randy, if nothing cool is done with them. And whats the most cool stuff in hames today ? Fancy BRDFs , shadows, lighting and shadowing solutions =)

P.S - To anyone which dislikes this post
This is a honest post, refecting my opinion. Its not a anti GG or ant TSE post. If you will think then maybe , and just maybe, youll see that there are some points in it.

#62 TSE is a tool to make games with, not target the highest end, fanciest rendering technologies. If you're looking to TSE to give you the absolute latest high end graphics features, you may be disappointed. If you want to make good looking games with TSE - get some good art, and solid gameplay, and you're set.

Sorry, our focus is on making games and not on outdoing Carmack. :)

#63 Ben , Sorry, but TSE does not provide nothing in the lighting issues. I dont look for you to outperform Carmack. It would be quite challenging for you guys.
Yet I look for you to provide a little more than Render Monkey viewer , shader utility wise. As I said in my previous post,
if you add support for SM 4.0 (which will be latest rendering techonolgy soon :PP ) wont impress me. Yet I
look for a lighting solution which is not on level of year 2002- 2003. Its 2006 . Even Doom 3 is already 1.5 years old. Untill TSE is ready it will be 2007. unified Blinn-Phong is done starting with 2004 on a lot of games,
its hardly on the beeding edge today :P

>> Sorry, our focus is on making games and not on outdoing Carmack. :)

Why, then, why do you licence engines if your focus is to make games? You should focus only on MBU PS3 in this case, and forget promoting TSE as your "flagship product". With the all the attention and development time you invested in TSE lately .....


I will be not disipointed as long as GG will get milestone 4 right. Ill see , hopefully , at end of 2006 what lighting
solution you implemented, and how flexible you made the other components ion engine so other ppl can "easily" plugin other lightsolution then what you give out of the box.

>> If you want to make good looking games with TSE

Well, for the time beeing, this is imposible for my scenario. It's "pseudo-lighting" may be good enough for
some types of games but totaly inadequate for what I want to do. Lets be serious, TGE haz better lighting atm. However, it may do just fine for a other games. From my point of view, if you fail MS4, you fail TSE. Dont be fooled by ppl on those forums, which only have praise. I presonaly know teams which where counting on TSE, but now are looking for other solutions because TSE is lagging with years, and the most important facilites (decent lighting ) are not even started.

#64 @Dan:

TSE will be done this year. It will be done better than promised. But, in fact, there have been very few promises. The entire first part of our sales page for TSE is dedicated to the engine being Early Adopter. There are no promises of release date on the project. It has always been "when it is done." Here is just some of the text:

Quote:
Early Adopter Release
The TSE is not yet complete and major components may change as it gets improved for the final release. It is available for developers who want to get an early jump on shader development. The TSE is not yet as stable a game development platform as the TGE, but it is already being used to produce several professional games. Experienced developers familiar with working on changing technology can get a jump on working with this new technology. Keep in mind that as we continue to develop and improve TSE through its Early Adopter period, some features will be modified and may even break for a time. As long as you are aware of these conditions, jump right in and have fun!

This is our promise for the lighting model:

Quote:
Dynamic Lighting - The TSE will support mobile lights that attenuate over distance and shade bumpmaps.

You may not think having the entire XB360 platform available to indie developers is important, but we feel it is extremely important. Our pioneering efforts in bringing TSE (as well as products developed with that engine) first to XBox and now the 360 are more important than day to day development. Our efforts on XBox are now leading to discussions for additional platforms. If you disagree with our strategy, that is you perogative. But, getting a viable indie channel and development path for indies in the console and mobile space will open more doors for indie developers than seeing moving lights.

We cannot be as transparent as we would like in the development process. TSE is taking longer than we wanted, but it also has more feature than when we first started the project. All development process take longer than expected, it does not matter how big or little the company is. However, if development is not coming along fast enough for your purposes and you need to change to a different engine, we wish you luck. You still own TSE, and maybe when it is done, you will want to come back.

#65 Jeff,

Ohh, no, Im not even gone. I am very open and activly waiting for it to become a fininshed product. As I said, even today TSE is a good solution for some generes of games. If it will be done whithin 2006 time frame , Id say it will come out in time.

But Jeff, lighting is something you want to be cool. Regardless are moving lights, or a semi dynamic solution like HL2. Lighting is cool . Is cool on PC, X386, Xbox, PS3 and whatever other platform. Thats why I said you dont wanna fail Ms4.

And I dont forget you already have a gem out , thats Torque 2D. An awesome product.

Dan

#66 Jeff,

>>You may not think having the entire XB360 platform available to indie developers is important, but we feel it >>is extremely important.

So let me understand. You will give us the Xbox X360 port of TSE ? When will this happen ?

Dan

#67 Jeff,

>>You may not think having the entire XB360 platform available to indie developers is important, but we feel it >>is extremely important.

So let me understand. You will give us the Xbox X360 port of TSE ? When will this happen ?

Dan

#68 It won't be "given", no. He said available.

#69 (Our general console licensing approach is this: if you are a licensed developer for that console then you can buy the console port of the engine. Legally, we can't just 'make it available', as the platform-specific portions contain trade secrets & NDA material from Microsoft/Sony/whomever. It all works just the same - for Marble Blast Ultra, we ran the exact same game code on PC and 360.)

#70 Good very good. Now, finish TSE so I can make my game and have my shot at make some money for buying X360 devel and then buy TSE Xbox 360 edition. As soon as I make some US$ from a game , Im looking forward to move to console land, where real money and real games are.

But as I said, unfotunately, I depend by making some money before going there. I feel TSE can get me to console land, once you guys complete it. It is even more awesome that the whole Xbox 360 platform is available to me, but unfortuntely I have to work with lowly PCs , because of money issues. (you know, the whole indy problem.) If I where not low on money I would have licensed Jupiter engine from Lithtech for a very afordable sum, and be done with all my licensing neeeds :P

After MS4 is completed, I hope you will port TSE to Playstation3 as well.

Also I have another point which I dont understand:

>> We cannot be as transparent as we would like in the development process.

Why ? What prevents you to be transparent ? It is indeed unfortunate that you choose this way.

Dan

#71 We're transparent about our goals, such as we know them, and our code, as we put it up as soon as it's solid. Just our development schedule is kept to ourselves, because the community tends to scream bloody murder if we make a promise and deviate from it. :)

So some things we keep vague about so people don't get set up for disappointment.

#72 Cool. Yes they scream. Hihihihi. You know, its funny to scream. Now, lets hope I get my TSE final soon , so I can make some money someday and buy a Xbox 360 devel kit. Having support for consoles is not bad, if you will offer it at accesible prices. I have to give GG that =).


>> So some things we keep vague about so people don't get set up for disappointment.

Make us a cool surprise , as a treatment for the ones which are already sedated and disspointed. =))))))

Dan

#73 The prices are accessible for console developers. We can't sell to anyone else, so... :)