T2D and TSE future concepts

#1 Yeah... I bought a TSE license to look at doing exactly this. But as 1.1 has stretched further and further, I've become increasingly scared of starting the project because it would be a complete rewrite on 1.1. This is one of my motivations for begging for 1.1. Pixel shaders could add a LOT of neat effects to a T2D game. For gamers with Shader Model 3 support, geometry instancing would make particles free. Want 100,000 particles per frame? no problem... how about at 300 fps? Think I'm joking? Go look at the Xbox 360 Live Arcade title "Geometry Wars 2". Granted, that 60 fps, but it's also a LOT of particles.

This is a perfect example of what we could build with T2D on TSE as a base. Think I'm joking? Here's some data for you: I happen to know that the first version (which shipped with Project Gotham Racing 2 as a minigame) was written in a weekend by one dev who was responsible for the particle engine in Gotham. I don't know how many resources were dedicated for v2... but the results are mind numbing.

That $150 investment of mine (on TSE) sits idle until 1.1 sees the light of day. :-)

#2 This stuff is a great idea but you've still got to have a good core game idea to work on. ;)

Seriously though, all this stuff is to come; having a modern GFX layer makes so much sense.

In the meantime, grabbing a copy of T2D/TSE, someone is going to make headline news with some extremely unique effects and possibly even derive a whole new form of 2D gameplay; the shader-model 3.0 diffuse HDR sky isn't the limit. ;)

- Melv.

#3 Actually Melv, sometimes monkeying with technology is what makes a great game. I think there are several categories of indie gamers:
1. Someone trying to learn about programming and sees games as a fun way to learn
2. Someone interested in breaking into the industry by proving they have what it takes in the garage
3. Someone interested in making a business of selling casual games
4. Someone that has no particular care if the ever really ship anything or make a cent... it's playing with the technology and building prototypes that's the fun part

Of these, only 2 and 3 lend themselves to "focus on a great game idea first." I already have an amazing job that pays all the bills and then some, so I align more in bucket 4 with the occassional dreams of making some beer money if I ever build anything original. I'm far more interested in taking a classic game like asteroids and saying... if you spruced it up with crazy good looks (not art in this case), but technical art--pixel and vertex shaders over relatively simple models (like in Geometry Wars), would that be cool? The answer is "I don't know."

Anyway, long story short, I think there are some of us that prefer geeking over designing games.

#4 ... and I respect that. I like moneying around with game engines ... err ... developing game engines. :)

I'm only jealous; I wish I had time to play with some technology. I think I'll probably do that over christmas. Messing with TSE and T2D sounds extremely cool.

Good luck!

- Melv.

#5 I assume you mean "monkeying"... heh heh... unfortunately your revenue stream @ $80 / copy isn't set up for this to be a get rich quick scheme... :-(

#6 Maybe it's just me but I'd rather not require the latest gfx card to play a 2D game...
I hope this will be optional if it does in fact happen.

#7 Joe,

Adding a GFX layer wouldn't mean you'd be forced to use the latest graphics card; it's just a more modern and cleaner abstraction of the graphics interface which makes it easier to link to shaders, new graphical APIs or platforms etc so no need to worry. Extending T2D to use shaders requires alot more effort as it stands than it would with a nice clean GFX layer.

I was enthusiastic about T2D and shaders simply because this is the context of the thread. I certainly didn't say T2D will be merging with TSE so no need to worry. :)

- Melv.

#8 Ah ok. I almost got the impression that TSE+T2D was the direction we were heading. Thanks for the clarification. Now I must try the shiny new T2D 1.1 alpha preview ;)

#9 Yes the assumption being that the shader enhanced version of T2dUltra would cost $$$ more of course to fun it's development. Or be done via community pitched in bounties.

#10 Just because of this little shader effects ... ;-)
Most "cool" effects only work because of the underlaying vertex data ... which simple does not exist in a 2D game ...

although with the new .plan ... we have real 3D objects ... narf ;-)

#11 Facewound is a good example of what a 2D game can do with pixel shaders. And they're not even using shader model 3.0.

#12 PixelShader 3 wouldn't change much ... most of the new stuff are things that are done as prestep for Shader Model 4 which will hopefully be unified shader instead of this useless vertex - pixel splitting at the moment.

Checked out their page.
All pixel shaders, very nice :-)
theoretically you can do this without shaders, it is just a slower because of its VRAM -> RAM -> CPU -> RAM -> VRAM instead of VRAM -> GPU -> VRAM processing.

#13 Marc -- what are you talking about! PixelShader 3 introduces most longer instruction sequences and the ability to do arbitrary texture lookups. You can do basic procedural textures with pixel 3.0. Also, you have the ability to do fullscreen effects like blur, sharpen, cartoon shade, etc. It will be really fun when we can do "arbitrary" photoshop like artistic effects. Imagine using the same source sprites, but being able to "flip" on a crazy effect to reflect an in game state change. It could give all new meaning to "Mario eating mushrooms!" ;-)

Regarding your other point: needing extra vertex data: there's no reason you can't going in an hack the rendering behind a static sprite to be subdivided into nXn subrectangles instead of a single rectangle. The sky's the limit.

#14 And if it can display DTS's and animation now. Should be able to shade that DTS :)

#15 T2D + TSE, sure would be cool.... T2D 360, sure would be cool... T2D in a browser, sure would be cool...

Good things to come! We need to get the core engine out of Early Adopter, and then tere'll be all kinds of great stuff to follow.

#16 ... the roadmap for T2D sure looks sweet from over here. In the meantime, there's nothing stopping you experimenting on your own and being the first to do things like add some shader effects. As of the latest Alpha, things e.g. the syntax etc should be stable so you should be able to build on it without too much worry.

Backwards compatibility from this point on is extremely important.

Good Luck everyone,

- Melv.