Community members and their careers
by Jeffrey Bakker · in Jobs · 11/15/2005 (7:14 pm) · 16 replies
I was wondering how many of you in the community have professional careers in Programming. Do you have a sweet programming job and do indie games on the side or as a hobby? Or is making indie games your ticket to get into the industry?
I'm still trying to get my career off the ground. I went to college for programming from 1999 to 2003, but I think my school was terrible. I've been making various open source projects for nearly 5 years now (a couple of which are semi-popular), and have done a couple of projects for companies, yet I find it very hard to land a job as a programmer. Currently I am just a waiter and dishwasher at a middle class restaurant, and with the bulk of my spare time I'm working on my game or improving my skills in certain technologies.
Is anyone else struggling with getting their passion to replace their day job? Does anyone have any advice on how to start a good programming career? How did you get to where you are now?
I'm still trying to get my career off the ground. I went to college for programming from 1999 to 2003, but I think my school was terrible. I've been making various open source projects for nearly 5 years now (a couple of which are semi-popular), and have done a couple of projects for companies, yet I find it very hard to land a job as a programmer. Currently I am just a waiter and dishwasher at a middle class restaurant, and with the bulk of my spare time I'm working on my game or improving my skills in certain technologies.
Is anyone else struggling with getting their passion to replace their day job? Does anyone have any advice on how to start a good programming career? How did you get to where you are now?
#2
Seriously though, I think I am in a circular dependency loop: Need a better job, requires further education, university requires money, back to needing a better job.
Or maybe when I least expect it, someone from a big software company will walk into the restaurant at which I wash dishes and say "WTFOMFG j00r teh 1337!!!11111" and give me an offer I can't refuse.
11/18/2005 (2:40 am)
Yarr! Maybe I will give up programming when I find my true calling in becoming a sea pirate by accident. ;) No need to explain further, we all know how that happens.Seriously though, I think I am in a circular dependency loop: Need a better job, requires further education, university requires money, back to needing a better job.
Or maybe when I least expect it, someone from a big software company will walk into the restaurant at which I wash dishes and say "WTFOMFG j00r teh 1337!!!11111" and give me an offer I can't refuse.
#3
I started as a clerk on a construction site, did a part time City & Guilds night school course in C programming, nudged my way towards coding in my work when ever I could and got noticed by the companies head office for my skills. They gave me a programmers job at their head office and the rest is history.
That was my break. Eventually got me a decent enough system analysis/coding job earning fairly good money. Nice hours too, gives me time to work on my real passion when I get home.
11/18/2005 (3:02 am)
You don't need further education to get a better job, you need a break... Massive further education might make your CV more attractive to a prospective employer, but you're the one who has to get the job.I started as a clerk on a construction site, did a part time City & Guilds night school course in C programming, nudged my way towards coding in my work when ever I could and got noticed by the companies head office for my skills. They gave me a programmers job at their head office and the rest is history.
That was my break. Eventually got me a decent enough system analysis/coding job earning fairly good money. Nice hours too, gives me time to work on my real passion when I get home.
#4
11/18/2005 (9:38 am)
I wish I could do game programming full time instead of just as a hobby. Instead I'm a Database Analyst/Programming for Bluefield College in Virginia. It's not bad at all. Decent pay and I get to do a lot of web development, which I love doing just as much as game programming, so I guess it isn't as bad. Maybe one day....
#5
Why not make demos of your game dev skills for submitting to companies?
I've made UT2003/2004 content for two years and started submitting my portfoilio to Unreal engine licensee game companies. I've had responses of interest from companies and even an interview with Epic Games, but didn't end up getting the job. If I was skilled more in algorithms, I may have had a better chance.
If I can almost do it, then I am sure that many of you guys can do it, because there's a lot more people out there that are more talented than I am.
11/19/2005 (3:31 am)
@Chip:Why not make demos of your game dev skills for submitting to companies?
I've made UT2003/2004 content for two years and started submitting my portfoilio to Unreal engine licensee game companies. I've had responses of interest from companies and even an interview with Epic Games, but didn't end up getting the job. If I was skilled more in algorithms, I may have had a better chance.
If I can almost do it, then I am sure that many of you guys can do it, because there's a lot more people out there that are more talented than I am.
#6
As far as games, it's just a hobby. I realized (after I bought Torque) that the inner workings of making the engine work was where I was content to be, rather than trying to make content and putting a game together.
11/19/2005 (8:54 am)
I work mostly on Java based client / server applications these past years. As far as games, it's just a hobby. I realized (after I bought Torque) that the inner workings of making the engine work was where I was content to be, rather than trying to make content and putting a game together.
#7
I don't plan on getting rich making games (lol), but with Torque I can focus on content and gameplay rather than engine-level stuff (which really doesn't interest me any more). I guess I'm the exact opposite of Charles in that way! ;-p
11/19/2005 (9:14 am)
I do embedded systems programming (drivers, OS porting, etc.) for mobile wireless devices. It's a fun job although it's not *really* where my motivation lies, but it keeps me in enough money to be able to afford to pursue gamedev as an indie and not starve and/or sell off my soul in the process!I don't plan on getting rich making games (lol), but with Torque I can focus on content and gameplay rather than engine-level stuff (which really doesn't interest me any more). I guess I'm the exact opposite of Charles in that way! ;-p
#8
11/19/2005 (9:34 am)
Thank goodness! Someone needs to do that other stuff.. ;)
#9
11/19/2005 (9:58 am)
I write game engine operators for a visual programming platform that is coming very soon.
#10
I think the paradigm for programmers is changing. Especially with so much being out-sourced overseas. We really have to be aggressive and forge our own path.
Have confidence in your skills, think outside the box and find your nitch. Don't wait on opportunity to come to you....
-Tim
11/19/2005 (10:18 am)
I design n-tier corporate database applications. Right now, I'm involved with a non-profit organization in the Chicago area. This project will pave the way for other partnerships in that area and other nationally known organizations. I think the paradigm for programmers is changing. Especially with so much being out-sourced overseas. We really have to be aggressive and forge our own path.
Have confidence in your skills, think outside the box and find your nitch. Don't wait on opportunity to come to you....
-Tim
#11
I wonder how the GG members ended up where they are now. :)
What's the going rate for programmers these days? For a while I've had the strong impression that around $35/hr (65-70G/year) is pretty much standard for entry level positions. Has this changed, or was even right in the first place? I don't want to be applying at jobs and requesting too much when they ask for salary expectations. I've also read on this forum that game programmers don't get paid very much (which can be interpreted in many ways) due to outsourcing overseas to countries that have lesser currency and an abundance of skilled workers.
11/20/2005 (3:25 am)
Thanks for the advice.I wonder how the GG members ended up where they are now. :)
What's the going rate for programmers these days? For a while I've had the strong impression that around $35/hr (65-70G/year) is pretty much standard for entry level positions. Has this changed, or was even right in the first place? I don't want to be applying at jobs and requesting too much when they ask for salary expectations. I've also read on this forum that game programmers don't get paid very much (which can be interpreted in many ways) due to outsourcing overseas to countries that have lesser currency and an abundance of skilled workers.
#12
11/20/2005 (3:33 am)
I do 3d modelling and programming for a prominent simulation company. I want to be doing 3d modelling and programming for my own company :P Don't we all....?
#13
11/20/2005 (3:45 am)
You guys need to go after a job for game programming. If your good and send your resume to every studio near you, you will most likely get a job! you have send them your resume and something of your ultra ultra best work, and bam your in. (maybe lol)
#14
11/20/2005 (3:54 am)
Be careful though because game companies rely on you been uber-mad keen on working in the vid games industry. The keen-ness will then allow them to under pay you and expect you to work 80 hour weeks for no extra pay when crunch time comes. It's not the norm but I've heard it happens alot. 
#15
Woohoo!
The biggest goal in my life was to build a software or game company! :)
Not just work at one, but build and own one.
Even if it was a small one, I had to go through the process at least once.
I started as a dish washer. :)
Finished highschool at 16 (not GED, but damn near).
At 17 hacked the PBX at the local computer repair/retail shop and made a friend.
Was offered a job and worked as an apprentice tech at the same shop for a couple years afterwards.
Flunked Computer Science and Networking at the local college.
Did low-end stuff for a few major game companies in the Bay Area (mostly testing).
Tried to climb into the front door of the industry without any background/school.
Learned that developing is frowned upon in the bottom rungs of the game industry.
Gave up and moved into a garage.
Did some small free-lance programming jobs for a couple of local businesses.
One of them hired me as a full time developer for a network audio/video game streaming solution.
Moved to Las Vegas and was "comp"ed a room on the top floor of a major casino for a very long time.
Saw and then built my first server farm.
Heard about Tier 2, A++, CISCO and other certifications (I had never heard of a certification).
Learned all the cool names for my self taught backwood skills.
Made my first annual 6 digits.
Escaped the cubicle farms and moved back to Northern California.
I found a partner, built a wireless ISP (hotspot and fixed residential) and deployed towers w/ solar arrays.
I turned a garage into a server farm.
I now live in a trailer out in the boons and use remote desktop till the cows come home.
I spend almost all of my time (past 3 years) running the ISP, writing network tools and an MMORPG.
If you want a career in the game industry this probably isn't the best route. :p
If I decide to go back, I'm going to need all my certs.
The certs will be a big one I think.
There will most likely be a list of them next to the job I want.
To fully understand the certs (not just get them) I may have to take some courses at various schools, seminars, etc. to fill in the gaps and pray I can skip any degrees.
You must make contacts.
If you have talent, a portfolio (even just personal) and LOTS of drive, you may just land a nice career.
You just have to bump into the right people and be prepared.
Take the bus and hit any conventions/shows with a laptop, resume and portfolio.
There will be lots of people to bump into. ;)
Even if you have all the certs, school and experience you still have to make that interview.
I'd say to get it done right, it would have to be an inside job. ;)
This is just one opinion and I didn't know what the hell I was doing, I just knew I could code.
Ari
"A 16x16 grid is a subnet. Think 255.255.255.255 + OpenGL and you'll SEE what I mean."
11/20/2005 (6:25 am)
A place to talk about me?Woohoo!
The biggest goal in my life was to build a software or game company! :)
Not just work at one, but build and own one.
Even if it was a small one, I had to go through the process at least once.
I started as a dish washer. :)
Finished highschool at 16 (not GED, but damn near).
At 17 hacked the PBX at the local computer repair/retail shop and made a friend.
Was offered a job and worked as an apprentice tech at the same shop for a couple years afterwards.
Flunked Computer Science and Networking at the local college.
Did low-end stuff for a few major game companies in the Bay Area (mostly testing).
Tried to climb into the front door of the industry without any background/school.
Learned that developing is frowned upon in the bottom rungs of the game industry.
Gave up and moved into a garage.
Did some small free-lance programming jobs for a couple of local businesses.
One of them hired me as a full time developer for a network audio/video game streaming solution.
Moved to Las Vegas and was "comp"ed a room on the top floor of a major casino for a very long time.
Saw and then built my first server farm.
Heard about Tier 2, A++, CISCO and other certifications (I had never heard of a certification).
Learned all the cool names for my self taught backwood skills.
Made my first annual 6 digits.
Escaped the cubicle farms and moved back to Northern California.
I found a partner, built a wireless ISP (hotspot and fixed residential) and deployed towers w/ solar arrays.
I turned a garage into a server farm.
I now live in a trailer out in the boons and use remote desktop till the cows come home.
I spend almost all of my time (past 3 years) running the ISP, writing network tools and an MMORPG.
If you want a career in the game industry this probably isn't the best route. :p
If I decide to go back, I'm going to need all my certs.
The certs will be a big one I think.
There will most likely be a list of them next to the job I want.
To fully understand the certs (not just get them) I may have to take some courses at various schools, seminars, etc. to fill in the gaps and pray I can skip any degrees.
You must make contacts.
If you have talent, a portfolio (even just personal) and LOTS of drive, you may just land a nice career.
You just have to bump into the right people and be prepared.
Take the bus and hit any conventions/shows with a laptop, resume and portfolio.
There will be lots of people to bump into. ;)
Even if you have all the certs, school and experience you still have to make that interview.
I'd say to get it done right, it would have to be an inside job. ;)
This is just one opinion and I didn't know what the hell I was doing, I just knew I could code.
Ari
"A 16x16 grid is a subnet. Think 255.255.255.255 + OpenGL and you'll SEE what I mean."
#16
11/21/2005 (10:51 pm)
Thank you all for sharing your stories. You guys have taken interesting paths to get to where you are. Good luck with your current and future endeavors.
Torque 3D Owner Ron Kirkland
So i guess im an accidental programmer. lol