bandwidth requirements for online games
by Daniel Nalbach · in General Discussion · 02/18/2002 (6:36 am) · 8 replies
Are the bandwidth requirements for online games increasing dramaticly or are some developers not implementing their technology correctly? This is not intended as a flame of the following company. Instead, it's a question of why Tribes 2 with similar gameplay and graphics could have drasticly lower bandwidth requirements.
The following is an excerpt from the Command & Conquer: Renegade "server setup.txt" file. The game is made by Westwood Studios as I'm sure most people already know.
Now my question is how the Torque engine can have such ridiculously lower bandwidth requirements. Both games have indoor/outdoor environments, players and vehicles, classes, and similar effects. The Torque engine actually has terrain which the Renegade maps appear to be traditional FPS geometry constructs.
I'm not all that knowledge about this stuff being a hobby artist rather than a programmer. Will there be a trend in gaming of moving away from the capability of cable and dsl users being able to host servers for online games due to the complexity of the games, or will more efficient means of utilizing the same bandwidth be worked towards?
The following is an excerpt from the Command & Conquer: Renegade "server setup.txt" file. The game is made by Westwood Studios as I'm sure most people already know.
Quote:
If you are setting up a server, it is important that your connection speed
is setup correctly. The connection speed for the server determines how
frequently clients connected to the server are updated. This has a direct
effect on the experienced "lag" of the players connected to your server.
The game will automatically determine your bandwidth and use it to determine
the appropriate number of players your game can host. The number of players
is scaled up using the following criteria:
Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 0.5 Mbps allows up to 8 players
Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 1.0 Mbps allows up to 16 players
Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 2.0 Mbps allows up to 32 players
Cable modems and DSL with an upload bandwidth of 128k/sec are NOT allowed
to host.
Now my question is how the Torque engine can have such ridiculously lower bandwidth requirements. Both games have indoor/outdoor environments, players and vehicles, classes, and similar effects. The Torque engine actually has terrain which the Renegade maps appear to be traditional FPS geometry constructs.
I'm not all that knowledge about this stuff being a hobby artist rather than a programmer. Will there be a trend in gaming of moving away from the capability of cable and dsl users being able to host servers for online games due to the complexity of the games, or will more efficient means of utilizing the same bandwidth be worked towards?
About the author
#2
I have to say that Tim, Mark, and Rick were WAY ahead of the curve when they did the networking on Tribes and Tribes 2. It isn't easy to do great networking, but I would think that a one billion dollar company (EA) would have it right by now.
Just think, you can do a game yourself that has better networking than the lastest and greatest from EA:)
Jeff Tunnell GG
02/18/2002 (8:02 pm)
Renegade is not a RTS, it is a FPS.I have to say that Tim, Mark, and Rick were WAY ahead of the curve when they did the networking on Tribes and Tribes 2. It isn't easy to do great networking, but I would think that a one billion dollar company (EA) would have it right by now.
Just think, you can do a game yourself that has better networking than the lastest and greatest from EA:)
Jeff Tunnell GG
#3
Well, I don't think CnC Renegade is going to be picked up by mod developers despite the rather cool idea of "mod College" (they flew in some guys behind B-rate mods and showed them the tools... which weren't that good mainly because source code provided would be jack-s*** nothing. Their defense was "we never gave out our code before, so it'll be a gradual thing". I'm thinking this will be more like script-code flexability... which is not enough to produce a truly different mod.)
Phew, long side-comment there...
Anyway, those reqs are insane. 0.5mb/sec for EIGHT PLAYERS? lol my god... that's insane.
Although, it has sort of made me wonder if lag-time is going to go up as graphics go up. To me (a medium-level programmer) I don't see a link between graphics and lag that would be linear. Sure... more details like shell casings, or decals would mean more ping but will future games be unplayable with a 56k?
Half-Life engine did well because it was good on a 56k, Quake 3 wasn't too good until the past year... either way, 56k is a very popular "platform" and until the majority of people are using broadband (I think the estimate for that is sometime around 2004-5)
I guess Renegade didn't handle networking that well, so it's not something that we should really worry about. Look at all the other engines out (half life, quake 3, tribes/torque) all are playable on a 56k (up to 32 players... beyond that they all crap out)
Maybe they have too many of the original CnC programmers instead of hiring guys with networking programming experience? Because those reqs are just crazy... Did I say that already? Oh well!!!
02/18/2002 (9:33 pm)
holy...Well, I don't think CnC Renegade is going to be picked up by mod developers despite the rather cool idea of "mod College" (they flew in some guys behind B-rate mods and showed them the tools... which weren't that good mainly because source code provided would be jack-s*** nothing. Their defense was "we never gave out our code before, so it'll be a gradual thing". I'm thinking this will be more like script-code flexability... which is not enough to produce a truly different mod.)
Phew, long side-comment there...
Anyway, those reqs are insane. 0.5mb/sec for EIGHT PLAYERS? lol my god... that's insane.
Although, it has sort of made me wonder if lag-time is going to go up as graphics go up. To me (a medium-level programmer) I don't see a link between graphics and lag that would be linear. Sure... more details like shell casings, or decals would mean more ping but will future games be unplayable with a 56k?
Half-Life engine did well because it was good on a 56k, Quake 3 wasn't too good until the past year... either way, 56k is a very popular "platform" and until the majority of people are using broadband (I think the estimate for that is sometime around 2004-5)
I guess Renegade didn't handle networking that well, so it's not something that we should really worry about. Look at all the other engines out (half life, quake 3, tribes/torque) all are playable on a 56k (up to 32 players... beyond that they all crap out)
Maybe they have too many of the original CnC programmers instead of hiring guys with networking programming experience? Because those reqs are just crazy... Did I say that already? Oh well!!!
#4
02/18/2002 (10:11 pm)
How many of you have actually played C&C Renegade? It's terrible...the netcode is horrid, the graphics are subpar, the interface is ugly, there's no console...While the gameplay is somewhat unique and sometimes fun, it is way too slow and cluttered. The game was a nice idea, but Westwood pulled it off terribly. And in my opinion, Westwood doesn't make very good games. C&C was good, Red Alert was good, but they should have stopped after that, considering their failures outweighed their successes. They're still making games with dated graphics, the same ol' gameplay, and ugly, clunky interfaces.
#5
sure cnc 1 was awesome, red alert 1 also.
then they came with cnc2 (forgot the real name :D) and the stores stayed open till 1 am and giving 10% sale offer! (well in holland they did.) just to sell this *awesome runner up* from cnc.
when i first played it and i saw the openingmovie i thought this was the best game they ever made... until i played level 1. you cant even set your resolution higher than 800x600!!! and its a freaking strategy game!
and about renegade: i also think this game sucks bigtime. and what do they mean with:
'Cable modems and DSL with an upload bandwidth of 128k/sec are NOT allowed
to host.'
do they realy mean that peeps cant set theyre own server up if they got cable or dsn?
are they realy going to "hunt" for those servers? whats the purpose of that???
ps. sorry for bad mouthing, westwood just pisses me off, bigtime :D
02/19/2002 (1:12 pm)
yeah whats up with westwood (and ea).sure cnc 1 was awesome, red alert 1 also.
then they came with cnc2 (forgot the real name :D) and the stores stayed open till 1 am and giving 10% sale offer! (well in holland they did.) just to sell this *awesome runner up* from cnc.
when i first played it and i saw the openingmovie i thought this was the best game they ever made... until i played level 1. you cant even set your resolution higher than 800x600!!! and its a freaking strategy game!
and about renegade: i also think this game sucks bigtime. and what do they mean with:
'Cable modems and DSL with an upload bandwidth of 128k/sec are NOT allowed
to host.'
do they realy mean that peeps cant set theyre own server up if they got cable or dsn?
are they realy going to "hunt" for those servers? whats the purpose of that???
ps. sorry for bad mouthing, westwood just pisses me off, bigtime :D
#6
Sorry for the not-relevant information...
Josh
02/19/2002 (1:41 pm)
Doh. I saw C&C and just assumed it was a RTS.Sorry for the not-relevant information...
Josh
#7
But anyhow, to quote the README found at http://westwood.ea.com/ (read news for 2/17):
So apparently, they expect the average gamer to own a T1, or they expect people with access to T1s or T3s to use that bandwith to host a crap game...right.
02/21/2002 (1:05 am)
Badmouth away...they deserve it. It's a darn shame that companies don't know how to learn from their mistakes. It seems to me that the gaming industry is/has been turning into the music industry, where they're trying to mass produce the same idea over and over, changing tiny aspects, packaging it, and sending out to the mass public. I think they're forgetting that the average gamer is not a 12 year old schoolgirl with posters of the latest super hunks on their walls. We can spot a clone when we see one, and we'll rip it a new one. But anyhow, to quote the README found at http://westwood.ea.com/ (read news for 2/17):
Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 0.5 Mbps allows up to 8 players Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 1.0 Mbps allows up to 16 players Upload Bandwidth equal to or greater than 2.0 Mbps allows up to 32 players Cable modems and DSL with an upload bandwidth of 128k/sec are NOT allowed to host.
So apparently, they expect the average gamer to own a T1, or they expect people with access to T1s or T3s to use that bandwith to host a crap game...right.
#8
It just amazes me how they can up the server reqs so high and expect for mod developers to want to work with their engine. Uh WESTWOOD! Those people came because you flew them there and it made them feel special. I doubt any of those teams will be working with your engine unless you're netcode gets a major overhaul (or they go offline for their mod)
Anyway, I'm just glad I gots me this good ol' Torquey! /me pets his sub 230 ping on a 56k.
02/21/2002 (2:35 am)
I've only known one person who doesn't make $200k+ a year and has above a dsl. And he was an "uber" pc dork. Not a gamer, just a pc dork. Spent all his time doing dull stuff like web design and bragging about how he had a t3 lol.It just amazes me how they can up the server reqs so high and expect for mod developers to want to work with their engine. Uh WESTWOOD! Those people came because you flew them there and it made them feel special. I doubt any of those teams will be working with your engine unless you're netcode gets a major overhaul (or they go offline for their mod)
Anyway, I'm just glad I gots me this good ol' Torquey! /me pets his sub 230 ping on a 56k.
Torque Owner Josh Goldshlag
Both types can cull out objects that are not close to being visible, but you still end up with a lot more data needed for RTS type games, especially now that they are considerably more complicated than they used to be.
Josh